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Post-Romulan Galaxy

You honestly cannot see any way that you could do a story where the defense grid works, repulses the attack and still lets the heroes save the day? Making everyone else incompetent or ineffectual isn't the only way for the good guys to triumph.

There's no concern before the Enterprise arrives that they can't scan Vulcan. They simply mention that they have lost contact. They go to red alert based simply upon Pike taking Kirk's position. No hard facts to back it up.
 
Sci said:
Such as...?
Are you kidding me? American talking human aliens with stupid bumps on their heads. Alien/human hybrids.

Canonical Trek has already addressed those points.

Hmm. Let's see who's penetrated Federation defence systems for it's captial planet

Listing them all and then saying "more advanced" and listing the casualties each time doesn't change anything. Don't kid yourself. Earth's planetary defences are useless.

Useless against whom?

Useless against forces far more powerful than they were ever intended to go up against? Sure. By the same token, the army of the Aztec was useless against the Spanish Army. That doesn't mean it was useless for it what it was intended to fight. The United States Navy is useless against a hurricane; that doesn't mean it's useless against what it's intended to fight.

And for all that we have a handful of incidents in which the defense grid was overwhelmed, you're ignoring the dozens of long-term threats the defense grid and other Federation defense grids have successfully functioned against.

He is not postulating that the Vulcans knew about Nero or the Narada in advance of the Battle of Vulcan, he is postulating that prior to the battle, the Narada may have abducted a Federation Starfleet officer in possession of Starfleet's planetary defense codes for Vulcan.

No, I'm postulating that when Nero entered Vulcan's star system, he would've needed to fight through the Vulcans' own defense ships and would've captured one of their officers to get the codes.

Okay. Though I don't know why a Vulcan space force would be primarily responsible for defending Vulcan -- wouldn't that be a bit like the Massachusetts State Navy being responsible for defending Boston rather than the United States Navy? I would assume that Starfleet would be responsible for defending Vulcan, too.

Unless the Confederacy of Vulcan in the alternate timeline is not a Federation Member State anymore. Which I suppose is a potential fall-out from the early revelation of the Vulcan/Romulan relationship in 2233 instead of 2266. That would also go some way towards explaining why Starfleet Headquarters on Earth is sending a fleet to Vulcan instead of more local Starfleet forces, and why Sarek is Vulcan Ambassador to Earth. (Though that doesn't explain why he'd be Vulcan Ambassador to Earth rather than Vulcan Ambassador to the Federation. It's not like there's a British Ambassador to Virginia.)

Which makes a certain amount of sense, since the Federation appears to be using a very different kind of warp technology in the alternate 2250s than it did in the prime timeline.

Well, first off, it doesn't make sense because his assertion is simply wrong: it's not that they couldn't scan at warp, it's that the Narada's drill created subspace interference that blocked their scans.

Are you sure? I don't remember anyone remarking that the idea that they couldn't scan Vulcan coming into the system was unusual.

Second, I don't see any evidence of a radically different warp technology in use. The perception of a "faster" warp drive comes from the way the film was edited, creating the impression that it takes mere minutes to get to Vulcan, but in that interval McCoy changes clothes and Kirk sleeps off his sedative, so clearly more time was meant to pass than the editing implied.

I was arguing for the existence of a different type of warp system because of the difficulty scanning Vulcan, not because of the time lapse.
 
Sci said:
Canonical Trek has already addressed these points
A common ancestor doesn't explain such nonsensical forehead arrangements, particularly when that ancestor was smooth headed!
Useless against whom?
Anyone. Your argument is "The defences would work is a weaker enemy attacked". You have no proof whatsoever. We don't even know what form Earth's planetary defenses take, for crying out loud!
 
Sci said:
Useless against whom?

Anyone.

"Even my people were never so bold as to attack Earth." - Martok, "The Changing Face of Evil."

Canon disagrees with you.

We don't even know what form Earth's planetary defenses take, for crying out loud!
We saw diagrams of defense satellites in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, actually. And that's to say nothing of the possibility that the various space stations orbiting Earth may well be as armed as Deep Space 9 was.

ETA:

Also, I'm curious. Are you going to contend that NORAD and the United States Air Force are useless simply because they failed to prevent 9/11?
 
By the same token, the army of the Aztec was useless against the Spanish Army.

That's not entirely true. It wasn't "the Spanish Army" that conquered the Aztec Empire. Cortez only had 600 men and 14 small cannons with him, hardly enough to conquer a civilization on their own. What our Eurocentric history education tends to gloss over is that the army that conquered Tenochtitlan consisted mostly of indigenous Mexicans who had suffered under Aztec rule for a long time and were eager to overthrow it; they allied with Cortez because it seemed their best chance of achieving that goal. Although it can be argued that the real conquerors of Tenochtitlan were the smallpox viruses that hitched a ride across the Atlantic with the conquistadors.


Okay. Though I don't know why a Vulcan space force would be primarily responsible for defending Vulcan -- wouldn't that be a bit like the Massachusetts State Navy being responsible for defending Boston rather than the United States Navy? I would assume that Starfleet would be responsible for defending Vulcan, too.

Maybe, but ST has been inconsistent on that point. I recall something, maybe "Unification" or "Gambit," suggesting that Vulcan has its own independent defenses, and there have been other episodes suggesting the same for other Federation worlds. Anyway, all I'm saying is that I assume nothing either way. It's logical that Nero got Vulcan's defense codes the same way he got Earth's from Pike, but I'm neutral on the question of who he got them from.



Well, first off, it doesn't make sense because his assertion is simply wrong: it's not that they couldn't scan at warp, it's that the Narada's drill created subspace interference that blocked their scans.

Are you sure? I don't remember anyone remarking that the idea that they couldn't scan Vulcan coming into the system was unusual.

It was a fast-paced movie. They had other things to talk about. But Spock did say the drill's emissions were interfering with communications and transporters, and we were told that the Enterprise had lost contact with the fleet once it arrived in-system. It stands to reason that the same interference blocked sensors.
 
Unless the Confederacy of Vulcan in the alternate timeline is not a Federation Member State anymore. Which I suppose is a potential fall-out from the early revelation of the Vulcan/Romulan relationship in 2233 instead of 2266. That would also go some way towards explaining why Starfleet Headquarters on Earth is sending a fleet to Vulcan instead of more local Starfleet forces, and why Sarek is Vulcan Ambassador to Earth. (Though that doesn't explain why he'd be Vulcan Ambassador to Earth rather than Vulcan Ambassador to the Federation. It's not like there's a British Ambassador to Virginia.)

In the 24th century, there seem to be defense forces under the control of member states in parallel with Starfleet: in "Unification" Vulcan defense ships mobilized once news of the invasion came, and in Paths of Disharmony half of the Andorian fleet was destroyed/damaged by the Borg.

Did news of the Vulcan-Romulan relationhip being revealed in 2233 necesarily change things, though? People in the right places before the Romulan War knew of the Vulcan origins of the Romulans. Did the 2233 clash with the Narada lead to news of these origins (as opposed to the very public-domain clash with the Narada) leaking?
 
Sometimes I like to think that the Starfleet we see is just the human-run subdivision of Starfleet, and that there are a bunch of Vulcan Starfleet ringships and Andorian Starfleet ships of a different design and so on. At least in the 23rd century, it might be possible. (Since we never saw the Intrepid from "The Immunity Syndrome," it's possible it could've been a ringship rather than the Constitution-class ship it's always been assumed to be.)
 
Was it the same? Leaving aside Pike's ability to function somewhat independently, speaking and moving hands and whatnot, the chair could as easily be a temporary crutch as he recovers from Nero's tortures as a permanent fixture of his life.

I didn't say anything about permanence, just that he is in a mobility chair.
 
But they didn't find anything wrong with losing communications. Just that it was unusual. The Enterprise woudn't have even had it's shields up if a)McCy hadn't smuggled Kirk aboard b)Kirk overheard the mention of the lightning storm c)Pike hadn't listened to Kirk instead of throwing him in the brig for being a stowaway and AWOL from the Academy.

They didn't scan the planet before approach and were totally surprised by the debris. It was exactly like the scene in Star Wars when the Falcon arrives at the destruction of Alderaan except instead of the Death Star it was the Narada.

It's not that the scans couldn't work, it's that they didn't even try. No "There's too much interferance." They simply popped out of warp blind and didn't think anything was strange about that. Comms seem to work at warp but not sensors.
 
Sci said:
Useless against whom?

Anyone.

"Even my people were never so bold as to attack Earth." - Martok, "The Changing Face of Evil."

Canon disagrees with you.
Maybe they feared the Federation's inevitable retalliation.
And wasn't that after Earth's defences failed to stop the Breen?
We don't even know what form Earth's planetary defenses take, for crying out loud!
We saw diagrams of defense satellites in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, actually. And that's to say nothing of the possibility that the various space stations orbiting Earth may well be as armed as Deep Space 9 was.
'Possibility", "May". You're arguing with guesswork.
Also, I'm curious. Are you going to contend that NORAD and the United States Air Force are useless simply because they failed to prevent 9/11?
Hijacked planes are a totally different situation to an alien spaceships flying up to a planet.
 
Sci said:
Useless against whom?

Anyone.

"Even my people were never so bold as to attack Earth." - Martok, "The Changing Face of Evil."

Canon disagrees with you.

We don't even know what form Earth's planetary defenses take, for crying out loud!
We saw diagrams of defense satellites in Star Trek: The Motion Picture, actually. And that's to say nothing of the possibility that the various space stations orbiting Earth may well be as armed as Deep Space 9 was.

ETA:

Also, I'm curious. Are you going to contend that NORAD and the United States Air Force are useless simply because they failed to prevent 9/11?
Exactly. I've always assumed that the reason we only ever saw the defense forces fail or at least heard about them, was because the only people (or things) who attacked it were ones that were able to get right through. So I don't think it's that the defense systems suck, it's just that nobody is stupid enough to go up against them unless they know that they'll be able to get through them.
 
^More fundamentally, it's that stories are about what happens when things go wrong, not when they go right. Just look at holodecks. Without malfunctions, there are hardly any stories to tell about them.
 
Was it the same? Leaving aside Pike's ability to function somewhat independently, speaking and moving hands and whatnot, the chair could as easily be a temporary crutch as he recovers from Nero's tortures as a permanent fixture of his life.

I didn't say anything about permanence, just that he is in a mobility chair.

Sorry. That was my wistfulness on Pike's behalf coming across. Damn but that he got dealt a bad deal in the Prime timeline! Would that he, if not Vulcan, did better in NuTrek's universe.
 
... "Inconsequential worlds?" The deaths of six billion people and the destruction of the homeworlds of the Vulcan and Romulan cultures -- planets that we as an audience have an emotional attachment to, frankly, just as surely as the readers of Harry Potter have an emotional attachment to Hogwarts or of C.S. Lewis's novels have to Narnia, or as viewers of Doctor Who have to the TARDIS.... these are inconsequential planets?

Agreed, strongly.

This lends itself to something closer to the original question. When Hobus goes supernova in 2387--if it goes supernova in the novelverse timeline, at least--what next?
 
Hopefully, a Trek universe forever changed. Stories about surviving Romulans who actually face a struggle, instead of just catching a shuttle to Romii, replicating all their old stuff and living happily ever after with 20 billion other bowlcuts. How about that Klingon takeover from the alternate future of "All Good Things"? That would be amazing.

Same thing for the post-STXI Vulcans. If there are billions more Vulcans out there, the end scene where the two Spocks meet and discuss the future is rendered moot. It cheapens the events of the movie.

Otherwise you might as well write a post-Destiny novel where you explain that none of those worlds were really destroyed - the Borg just orbited them for awhile and Picard, caught up in the moment, assumed they all would be.
 
When Hobus goes supernova in 2387--if it goes supernova in the novelverse timeline, at least--what next?

No "if" about it. The movie said it happened in the Prime timeline, so it's canon, and the books are required to acknowledge that once they eventually reach 2387.
 
Hopefully, a Trek universe forever changed. Stories about surviving Romulans who actually face a struggle, instead of just catching a shuttle to Romii, replicating all their old stuff and living happily ever after with 20 billion other bowlcuts.

I still don't understand how, in order to be affecting, the destruction of the planet Romulus can't leave very substantial numbers of Romulans alive on worlds other than their homeworld. Non-plausibility of Romulan conquest not being accompanied by Romulan settlement--as explicitly described in the novelverse--aside, the destruction of he heartland of any major power on 21st century Earth that left newer acquisitions untouched would still have huge effects. Yes, there'd be plenty of United States left if the Eastern Seaboard was razed by the defense platforms, but the remaining Americans would be left reeling (as would the rest of the world).

There's still plenty of space for struggle in that environment; more space, I'd say, since there's still a point to it all from the Romulan perspective. "If nothing's left, what's the point? May as well reunify with the Vulcans."

Anyhow. Let's work from the assumption that there are very large but astrographically and culturally separated Romulan populations off of Romulus, alongside populations of various subject and allied species. (The Kevratans were conquered, the Elohsians of The Romulan Stratagem joined.) What next?

How about that Klingon takeover from the alternate future of "All Good Things"? That would be amazing.

The destruction of Romulus might well create enough chaos for the Klingons to exploit, but for that to happen you'd also need the Typhon Pact to fall apart or not intervene in the conquest of its largest member-state.

Same thing for the post-STXI Vulcans. If there are billions more Vulcans out there, the end scene where the two Spocks meet and discuss the future is rendered moot. It cheapens the events of the movie.

You've made a convincing argument in favour of Vulcan culture being pretty concentrated on the Vulcan homeworld, but the argument can't be extended to the Romulans IMHO given the documented size of their empire in TV and the documented colonization of non-Romulan worlds by Romulans in the novelverse.

Otherwise you might as well write a post-Destiny novel where you explain that none of those worlds were really destroyed - the Borg just orbited them for awhile and Picard, caught up in the moment, assumed they all would be.

Of course they were destroyed since they were explicitly described as destroyed, and they were destroyed with exceptionally high death tolls, too: only a few ships escaped Barolia, Choudhury and Wolf thought of Ramatis III as a tomb for a civilization of almost a billion people, Picard was impressed with the efficiency of a program that evacuated more than a million people from a Deneva that was home to a couple of billions, and so on.

In the case of Vulcan, you've made fairly convincing arguments that Vulcan civilization wasn't very expansionistic and that there weren't many Vulcan colonies of settlement. I'm inclined to agree with Christopher that the figure of ten thousand refers to evacuees from Vulcan as opposed to the total number of survivor, but a Vulcan survivor population totalling in the low millions is plausible to me.

Maybe Sigma Draconis V, mentioned in Cast No Shadows among other places as a new Vulcan colony, was the one selected? Sigma Draconis and 40 Eridani are in the same neighbourhood, and are even broadly similar from the perspective of stellar class and age and whatnot.

Those argument don't hold for the Romulans. Let's exclude the novelverse documentation of multiple populous colonies for a moment. For centuries the Romulans have been aggressively expanding across the galaxy, as they believe it their inherent rght. Why, if their territory extends dozens of light years from their homeworld and presumably includes many environments that are attractive destinations for settlement (environmentally, economically, et cetera), would there not be substantial numbers of Romulans living permanently off their homeworld?

Romulan civilization--starfaring, expansionistic--has made the Romulans as relatively immune to local catastrophes. Humans enjoy the same luxury, too. In an exchange in Before Dishonor between Leybenzon and Kadohata, the Cestus III-born Kadohata points out to Leybenzon that even a Borg supercube destruction of Earth wouldn't doom the human race since there were far too many humans living offworld for the species to be done in by that. (She shouldn't have had to make that point to Leybenzon, he Worf's fellow native of Galt, but that need was one of Leybenzon's many flaws.) The Romulans are in a similar position; if they didn't, you'd need a pretty compelling explanation as to why not.
 
When Hobus goes supernova in 2387--if it goes supernova in the novelverse timeline, at least--what next?

No "if" about it. The movie said it happened in the Prime timeline, so it's canon, and the books are required to acknowledge that once they eventually reach 2387.


I'm trying to understand how you can say the books have to acknowledge this while you have said you don't believe the 10,000 surviving Vulcans to be binding since Orci has said, in retrospect, that he didn't count count offworld Vulcans. If Orci puts a line to that effect into the next movie I can see how that would affect the way the Vulcan situation is handled but until then wouldn't the 10,000 survivors be the law of the land?
 
When Hobus goes supernova in 2387--if it goes supernova in the novelverse timeline, at least--what next?

No "if" about it. The movie said it happened in the Prime timeline, so it's canon, and the books are required to acknowledge that once they eventually reach 2387.

I'm trying to understand how you can say the books have to acknowledge this while you have said you don't believe the 10,000 surviving Vulcans to be binding

Because it's pretty obvious that sometimes a given fact is subject to revision from the subsequent realization of error, but some things are too obvious and solid to be reinterpreted.

For instance, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, it was feared by many that upwards of 20,000 people may have died, based on the number of people often in the Twin Towers at that time of day. Later, the casualty figures were revised to slightly less than 3,000 -- because, hey, guess what, people just aren't very good at counting accurately in the immediate aftermath of a disaster. But no one would reasonably contend that the Twin Towers were not destroyed.

It's reasonable to reinterpret that scene to have Alt.Spock making a bad count because he's emotionally traumatized. It's not reasonable to reinterpret an explicit, easily-confirmed factual statement from two independent sources (Nero and Prime.Spock) that Romulus was destroyed.
 
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