• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Post-Romulan Galaxy

^Because if Nero killed 99% of the Vulcan population, or if the supernova killed 99% of the Romulan population or brought down the Empire it's far more epic and dramatically satisfying than if inconsequential worlds perished. Events that have a lasting impact beyond the name of the planet which Romulans or Vulcans call home. That's what STXI was going for.

Otherwise we're bumping Nero's motivations down from "everything he knew and loved was destroyed" to "his appartment burnt down"
 
Any books out there yet, or in the works, addressing the Post-Romulan galaxy and the consequences of the destruction of Romulus and Remus?

Well according to the storyline established by Star Trek Online, the Romulan Empire continued, albiet, shattered.

The Romulan Empire did have a relatively large swath of territory, it did endure, just as I understand it rather more aggressive and severely pissed off.
 
^Because if Nero killed 99% of the Vulcan population, or if the supernova killed 99% of the Romulan population or brought down the Empire it's far more epic and dramatically satisfying than if inconsequential worlds perished. Events that have a lasting impact beyond the name of the planet which Romulans or Vulcans call home. That's what STXI was going for.

Otherwise we're bumping Nero's motivations down from "everything he knew and loved was destroyed" to "his appartment burnt down"

Well to be fair its never really established that Nero had all that much love for the Romulan Empire. They kind of went with the classic "My wife was everything" thing.

Which gets a little old sometimes. Year of Hell milked that to death.
 
^Because if Nero killed 99% of the Vulcan population, or if the supernova killed 99% of the Romulan population or brought down the Empire it's far more epic and dramatically satisfying than if inconsequential worlds perished. Events that have a lasting impact beyond the name of the planet which Romulans or Vulcans call home. That's what STXI was going for.

Otherwise we're bumping Nero's motivations down from "everything he knew and loved was destroyed" to "his appartment burnt down"

I'm sorry, but that's ludicrous. Losing a planetary population of billions is still an enormous tragedy no matter how many others survive. Let's try this: The population of New York City in 2001 was 8 million. The death toll in the attack on the World Trade Center was 2,753. That's a death toll of 0.034 percent of the city's population. Does that mean that the people of New York were emotionally unaffected by the event? That it carried no more weight for them than an apartment burning down? Of course not. They were horrified, devastated. The deaths of those nearly 3000 people may have been a mere blip in the population statistics, but they were a dreadful tragedy that shook the entire city, the entire nation, and continue to have an enduring impact to this day. You can't reduce something like the impact of a tragedy to a simple matter of percentages.

The destruction of an entire planet, a population of billions, is always going to be a horrific tragedy. The destruction of a species' homeworld, the planet they evolved on, the world where their history and culture were founded, is going to be a monumental shock to the entire diaspora of its civilization no matter how widely they spread.
 
But when Spock says "I am now a member of an endangered species", says that less than 10,000 Vulcans remain and when he's planning to leave Starfleet at the end in order to help repopulate the species (not to mention Spock Prime setting up the new Vulcan colony world), that makes it crystal clear that Planet Vulcan wasn't just a micro percentage of the Federation's Vulcan population.
Whether destruction on that scale was necessary or not is irrelevent. That's the same tired old arguments from when Destiny ruined planet after planet.

With Romulus and the Romulan Empire I'll admit there's a lot less info given in the movie and thus much more wiggle room for post-2387 stories.

And if you're gonna start on the "it's common sense for Vulcans/Romulans expand and populate other worlds" argument, I say "it's common sense to have proper planetary defences" - something Trek never ever managed. If you can accept one, you can accept the other.
 
Just forget it. I don't know why some people are so obsessed with clinging to this single minor detail in the film, but I have better things to do than keep going in circles about it.
 
^Yeah, it's not like it was the patrol route of the USS Bozeman or Captain Bateson's command staff or anything important like that;)
 
But when Spock says "I am now a member of an endangered species", says that less than 10,000 Vulcans remain and when he's planning to leave Starfleet at the end in order to help repopulate the species (not to mention Spock Prime setting up the new Vulcan colony world), that makes it crystal clear that Planet Vulcan wasn't just a micro percentage of the Federation's Vulcan population.
Whether destruction on that scale was necessary or not is irrelevent. That's the same tired old arguments from when Destiny ruined planet after planet.

With Romulus and the Romulan Empire I'll admit there's a lot less info given in the movie and thus much more wiggle room for post-2387 stories.

And if you're gonna start on the "it's common sense for Vulcans/Romulans expand and populate other worlds" argument, I say "it's common sense to have proper planetary defences" - something Trek never ever managed. If you can accept one, you can accept the other.
I'm pretty sure they made references to planetary defense systems around Earth and possibly other planets over the years, we just never saw them.
 
But when Spock says "I am now a member of an endangered species", says that less than 10,000 Vulcans remain and when he's planning to leave Starfleet at the end in order to help repopulate the species (not to mention Spock Prime setting up the new Vulcan colony world), that makes it crystal clear that Planet Vulcan wasn't just a micro percentage of the Federation's Vulcan population.

If we're talking about cultural Vulcans, sure. If we're talking about members of the Vulcan species, its survival is still assured after the destruction of Vulcans what with the billions of Vulcans of Romulan cultural background in their intact homeworld over in the RSE.

With Romulus and the Romulan Empire I'll admit there's a lot less info given in the movie and thus much more wiggle room for post-2387 stories.

Agreed. I think that the Romulans are substantially been expansionistic than the Vulcans (of Vulcan proper), have been since the Sundering, and are much more resilient to a homeworld-destroying attack.

I can imagine the Vulcans deciding that instead of becoming an expansionistic power, coming up against a half-dozen neighbours in the immediate neighbourhood alone, they'd just opt to become a high-tech and heavily-armed power, a sort of pocket empire more than capable of holding off its more numerous lower-tech neighbours. Who would be capable of attacking Vulcans, after all? Draylax? Denobula? The Andorians might want to, but ...

And if you're gonna start on the "it's common sense for Vulcans/Romulans expand and populate other worlds" argument, I say "it's common sense to have proper planetary defences" - something Trek never ever managed. If you can accept one, you can accept the other.

They did have proper planetary defenses--they just didn't work. ;)
 
I'm pretty sure they made references to planetary defense systems around Earth and possibly other planets over the years, we just never saw them.

Indeed. That was the whole reason Nero abducted Captain Pike: to torture him into revealing the codes that would let Nero shut down the Earth's defense grid. That was made explicit in the film. It stands to reason that Nero probably did the same with some Vulcan ship commander before he attacked Vulcan.
 
^Because if Nero killed 99% of the Vulcan population, or if the supernova killed 99% of the Romulan population or brought down the Empire it's far more epic and dramatically satisfying than if inconsequential worlds perished.

... "Inconsequential worlds?" The deaths of six billion people and the destruction of the homeworlds of the Vulcan and Romulan cultures -- planets that we as an audience have an emotional attachment to, frankly, just as surely as the readers of Harry Potter have an emotional attachment to Hogwarts or of C.S. Lewis's novels have to Narnia, or as viewers of Doctor Who have to the TARDIS.... these are inconsequential planets?

C'mon, man. The destruction of Vulcan and Romulus and the deaths of billions of people is plenty dramatic by their lonesome. A movie can get away with having Spock speak with some hyperbole because he's been traumatized, but there's no real reason for a novel to sustain that implausibility.

Otherwise we're bumping Nero's motivations down from "everything he knew and loved was destroyed" to "his appartment burnt down"
Wow. Would you say something like that to a survivor of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans? To someone who's trying to survive the shelling of Hama in Syria today? To a person who's seen the destruction of Mogadishu or Kabul or Baghdad to war?

No?

Then why would you assume that the destruction of Romulus and the deaths of everyone he's ever known and loved would be any less traumatic, just because there happen to be other Romulans out there on Planet D'deridex II or whatever?

ETA:

Recall I said "proper planetary defences". Y'know, something effective. Their track record is 100% fail.

Because the Narada is from the 24th Century (and, depending on whether or not you accept Star Trek: Countdown, armed with technology even more advanced than 24th Century Romulan technology). It's the equivalent of faulting the original six frigates of the United States Navy for not being able to defend against a Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser.
 
Sci said:
A movie can get away with having Spock speak with some hyperbole because he's been traumatized, but there's no real reason for a novel to sustain that implausibility.
There's every reason. It's the whole point of tie-in fiction. I want to read stories building on and continuing the events of the movie, not retconning them down into whatever the author thinks is how it should have been. In that case, they should write original stories.

If you're gonna start "fixing" Trek, there's a LOT more that's fundamentally broken with the universe than how many people survived the destruction of two planets. To say "that meaningless nonsense is okay but these bits aren't" is ridiculous.
Because Narada is from the 24th century
I'm talking about ALL of Trek. In 45 years, Earth's defences have a 100% failiure rate.
 
Sci said:
A movie can get away with having Spock speak with some hyperbole because he's been traumatized, but there's no real reason for a novel to sustain that implausibility.
There's every reason. It's the whole point of tie-in fiction. I want to read stories building on and continuing the events of the movie,

And acknowledging something the movie's writers themselves have acknowledged does not violate that directive.

If you're gonna start "fixing" Trek,
Trek Lit has indulged in a lot of reinterpretations of things in canonical Trek that don't quite make sense. That ship has long since sailed.

there's a LOT more that's fundamentally broken with the universe than how many people survived the destruction of two planets.
Such as...?

Because Narada is from the 24th century
I'm talking about ALL of Trek. In 45 years, Earth's defences have a 100% failiure rate.
Hmm. Let's see who's penetrated Federation defense systems for its capital planet.

1. Star Trek: The Motion Picture. 2273. V'Ger, an artificial intelligence controlling a vessel with technology that looks to be thousands of years more advanced than anything else yet encountered in the Star Trek Universe save extra-dimensional aliens like the Q, penetrates both Klingon and Federation defense systems and shuts down Earth's planetary defense grid. It is placated by Captain Matthew Decker of the U.S.S. Enterprise, who merges with it before it attacks Earth. No civilian fatalities.

2. Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. 2285. An alien Probe of unknown origin seeks contact with the extinct sapient Earth species known as humpback whales, and inadvertently causes severe damage both to space-based power systems and to Earth's climate. The Probe appears, again, to be far in advance of any technology yet encountered, possibly save V'Ger itself. Probe is placated when the extinction of the humpback whale species is reversed by the time-traveling crew of the late U.S.S. Enterprise. Unknown civilian fatalities.

3. "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II." 2366-67. An invading Borg cube penetrates Federation defense systems and arrives in orbit of Earth. The cube is disabled by the crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise, who hack into its systems through the rescued Captain Jean-Luc Picard. Upon detection of its systems being hacked, the cube self-destructs. The Borg appear to be hundreds of years more advanced technologically than any power in local space, and are seemingly the most advanced power encountered since V'Ger and the Probe.

4. "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." 2372. Dominion agents detonate a bomb at a Federation-Romulan conference in Antwerp, killing 27. Two encounters with a single Changeling each later occur on the grounds of Starfleet Headquarters, during one of which the Changeling claims that only four Founders are present on Earth. There is no evidence that any Changelings ever manage to compromise Federation security any further, nor that any Changelings gain access to the interior of Starfleet Headquarters, the Palais de la Concorde, or any other secure facilities. The Dominion's technology is roughly comparable to the Federation's, though it won't be until after this attack that the Federation develops effective counter-measures against Changeling infiltration. Civilian casualties: 27.

5. Star Trek: First Contact. 2373. Borg cube penetrates Federation defenses and fights a running battle with a huge Federation fleet, making it in orbit of Earth before being destroyed. The Borg remain far in advance of any technology possessed by local powers. Civilian casualties: 0.

6. "The Changing Face of Evil." 2375. Breen forces, newly allied with the Dominion, attack Earth, targeting the City of San Francisco, with particular emphasis on Starfleet Headquarters, Starfleet Academy, and the Golden Gate Bridge. The Breen Confederacy is roughly comparable in technological development to the Federation, though it possesses a distinct tactical advantage in its energy-dampening weapon until the Federation learns to counter its effects. This is the first time a comparable power has directly attacked the Federation capital in a conventional attack. Casualties: Unknown, possibly in the thousands.

7. "Endgame." 2377. Borg transwarp conduit opens in orbit of Earth. Single Borg sphere destroyed by the U.S.S. Voyager and Federation armada. Collapse of the galactic Borg transwarp network. Civilian casualties: 0.

Alternate Timeline:

8. Star Trek (2009). 2258. 24th Century Romulan mining starship Narada (possibly outfitted with post-24th Century-level advanced Borg technology) penetrates Federation defenses after defeating Federation forces in orbit of Vulcan, directly targets Earth for destruction by attempting to drill into the crust at San Francisco Bay for the Red Matter weapon. Narada defeated by the U.S.S. Enterprise and the 24th Century scoutship Jellyfish with help from a 24th Century technology given to them by the temporally displaced Ambassador Spock of 2387. Narada was far more technologically advanced than anything the Federation of the 2250s had ever encountered. Civilian casualties: Unknown, possibly 0.

This data set ignores information from the novels.

So, we've got 8 incidents where Earth is attacked. Of those incidents, 6 involve enemies that are, frankly, so technologically advanced that defense against them is virtually impossible to defend against them. Two of those advanced entities could not be defeated at all, merely placated. One of those enemies could only be defeated through the intervention of 24th Century technology against 24th Century technology (the Jellyfish and transwarp beaming against the Narada). And three of those incidents were against an enemy that is far, far, far more technologically advanced than the Federation and against whom a given defense strategy can only work once before an effective counter-strategy is developed (the Borg).

Only two penetrations of Earth defense systems occur against enemies of comparable technological development. Of those, one is essentially an asymmetrical terrorist attack that is a much stronger indictment of building security than it is of planetary defense systems. One represents a genuine failure of planetary defense systems not performing adequately against an enemy it is reasonable for them to be expected to be effective against.

Given the data set, I'd say that while it's clear the Federation needs to continue advancing its planetary defense systems to find new and creative ways to thwart the Borg, it is not reasonable to say that the Federation has inferior or ineffective planetary defense systems simply because they have failed against enemies whose technologies were too advanced to be anticipated. Blaming Earth's planetary defense systems for failing against V'Ger, the Probe, the Narada, and the Borg is akin, again, to blaming 17th Century forts for failing to defend against 21st Century aircraft carriers, submarines, and guided missile cruisers; it is not a reasonable evaluation of their effectiveness given the levels of technology that were known to exist at the time of their development.

It's clear that the systems failed against the Breen -- but it's also clear that the systems were apparently so effective in the past that no other power of comparable technological development to the Federation had ever been able to attack Earth before. That's not a bad track record.

ETA:

If we include information from the novels, I'm aware of the following incidents:

1. Homecoming/The Farther Shore. Emergence of Borg nanoprobe virus on Earth. Thwarted by the crews of the U.S.S. Voyager and U.S.S. Enterprise-E. Asymmetrical attack by rogue admiral in Starfleet Intelligence using Borg technology. No failure of the planetary defense systems involved. Civilian casualties (that I recall): 0.

2. Before Dishonor. Borg Supercube Crisis. Borg cube under the control of a Queen created through the assimilated Kathryn Janeway penetrates Federation defenses, nearly assimilates Earth before being thwarted by the crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise-E, assisted by Spock of Vulcan, Seven of Nine, and the re-emerged persona of Kathryn Janeway within the Collective. Borg technology remains far in advance of Federation technology. Civilian casualties: Unknown.

3. Destiny. Borg Invasion of 2381. Borg armada penetrates Federation, Klingon, Romulan defenses and destroys an allied expeditionary force. Numerous planets destroyed, hundreds of billions killed. Borg defeated through intervention of advanced race known as the Caeliar. Borg Collective remained far in advance of Federation technology.

All three incidents involve the Borg -- again, a power so advanced that the Federation cannot reasonably be blamed for being incapable of thwarting them through military means. Federation attempts to defeat the Borg remain akin to 17th Century attempts to defeat 21st Century technology.
 
I'm pretty sure they made references to planetary defense systems around Earth and possibly other planets over the years, we just never saw them.

Indeed. That was the whole reason Nero abducted Captain Pike: to torture him into revealing the codes that would let Nero shut down the Earth's defense grid. That was made explicit in the film. It stands to reason that Nero probably did the same with some Vulcan ship commander before he attacked Vulcan.

The Vulcans knew nothing about Nero or the Narada. Starfleet only received a distress call about seismic disturbances. Nero also had numerous other ships that he could have captured the captains of. It's just when he saw it was the Enterprise did he get the idea of getting the defense codes. Before then, he simply wanted it destroyed.

- Sir, there's another Federation ship.
- Destroy it too.

If he already had the Earth codes he wouldn't need them from Pike. There's also no indication of any other ships at Vulcan.

It would appear that the new rules on sensors prevent ships at warp from scanning normal space (the Enterprise was surprised when arriving at Vulcan) but planetary based sensors can scan ships at warp (the transporter from Delta Vega to the Enterprise). I wonder how the Narada managed to sneak up on Vulcan in that case.
 
And one more point in favor of your argument, Sci: Both V'Ger and Nero were able to lower Earth's defenses because they got the access codes first: V'Ger from the Enterprise's computer banks and Nero from his torture of Christopher Pike. So neither of those constitutes a technological failure or physical overpowering of the defense grid. (Also, "Eleven Hours Out" in Tales of the Dominion War postulates that the Breen attack was able to get through because a portion of the Earth defense grid was sabotaged from within.)


The Vulcans knew nothing about Nero or the Narada. Starfleet only received a distress call about seismic disturbances.

You're overlooking an essential fact. Nero's drill blocked subspace communication. So the lack of warning wasn't because the Vulcans didn't know a humongous ship was drilling a whole in their planet -- an idea that obviously makes no sense -- but because they couldn't tell the approaching ships what was happening.

There's also no indication of any other ships at Vulcan.

That's because they were destroyed before Nero started drilling a hole in the planet, and the Starfleet ships didn't arrive until hours after that happened.


It would appear that the new rules on sensors prevent ships at warp from scanning normal space (the Enterprise was surprised when arriving at Vulcan)

Again, you're forgetting that the drill was causing subspace interference. Seriously, this was a major, major plot point in the drill sequence. It was a large part of the reason for the skydiving mission to knock out the drill in the first place -- because transporters and communication wouldn't work as long as the drill was operating, so it was interfering with rescue operations.
 
It would be nice to have a story where the defense grid was actually able to stay functioning and repel an attack. It does get a little cliche when you KNOW the darn thing is going to be turned off/destroyed/ignored.
 
Indeed. That was the whole reason Nero abducted Captain Pike: to torture him into revealing the codes that would let Nero shut down the Earth's defense grid. That was made explicit in the film. It stands to reason that Nero probably did the same with some Vulcan ship commander before he attacked Vulcan.

The Vulcans knew nothing about Nero or the Narada.

He is not postulating that the Vulcans knew about Nero or the Narada in advance of the Battle of Vulcan, he is postulating that prior to the battle, the Narada may have abducted a Federation Starfleet officer in possession of Starfleet's planetary defense codes for Vulcan.

If he already had the Earth codes he wouldn't need them from Pike.

You're mis-reading what Christopher said. He suggested that Nero got the codes to Vulcan's defense grid by kidnapping a Federation starship captain with access to the Federation's Vulcan defense grid codes. He is not postulating that Nero had access to Starfleet's defense grid codes for Earth.

There's also no indication of any other ships at Vulcan.

Actually, when the Enterprise drops out of warp, it has to conduct evasive maneuvers to avoid a collision with a saucer hull fragment that looks to be from another Starfleet ship. Only thing is, the Enterprise was clearly the largest starship of the task force from Earth that left for Vulcan. The most probable explanation is that this mystery ship was a Federation Starfleet starship stationed at Vulcan prior to the Narada's arrival, which it also destroyed.

Which only makes sense, since of course Starfleet would be defending Vulcan as vigorously as it defends Earth. (It's not like the U.S. Navy only defends Washington, D.C., and ignores the rest of the coasts.)

It would appear that the new rules on sensors prevent ships at warp from scanning normal space (the Enterprise was surprised when arriving at Vulcan) but planetary based sensors can scan ships at warp (the transporter from Delta Vega to the Enterprise).

Which makes a certain amount of sense, since the Federation appears to be using a very different kind of warp technology in the alternate 2250s than it did in the prime timeline. I would hypothesize that the altered astropolitical landscape emerging after 2233 led to a warp propulsion specialist surviving who had died in the prime timeline -- perhaps hotter tensions with the Romulans post-Kelvin led to cooler tensions with the Klingons? -- and therefore developing a newer, faster type of warp drive that carries that particular limitation.

I wonder how the Narada managed to sneak up on Vulcan in that case.

Who's to say they snuck up at all? The Narada is so overwhelmingly powerful that there needn't have been any need for an element of surprise for them to totally wipe the floor with Starfleet's Vulcan defense systems and fleet. Starfleet starships, starbases, and defense satellites could all have been destroyed in very short notice with limited danger to the Narada.

And one more point in favor of your argument, Sci: Both V'Ger and Nero were able to lower Earth's defenses because they got the access codes first: V'Ger from the Enterprise's computer banks and Nero from his torture of Christopher Pike. So neither of those constitutes a technological failure or physical overpowering of the defense grid.

True -- though I suspect that both V'Ger and the Narada would have been able to dispatch Earth's defense grids with relative ease. Particularly V'Ger, which seems to be the single most powerful technological force the Federation has ever encountered (with the possible exception of the Caeliar).

(Also, "Eleven Hours Out" in Tales of the Dominion War postulates that the Breen attack was able to get through because a portion of the Earth defense grid was sabotaged from within.)

True. However, I do agree with holding that one against the Earth defense grid, simply because that kind of infiltration and hijacking, I think, is something that should not have been considered impossible to anticipate and defend against.

It would be nice to have a story where the defense grid was actually able to stay functioning and repel an attack. It does get a little cliche when you KNOW the darn thing is going to be turned off/destroyed/ignored.

Well, when Star Trek stops featuring stories about the Federation being attacked by forces that are as advanced compared to it as the modern-day United States Navy is compared to the Continental Navy of the 1700s, I'm sure we'll see a more effective planetary defense grid.
 
Sci said:
Such as...?
Are you kidding me? American talking human aliens with stupid bumps on their heads. Alien/human hybrids. The way ships move in space. The silly magic of the transporter. The Genesis device. ESP. Underpowered antimatter weapons.
Hmm. Let's see who's penetrated Federation defence systems for it's captial planet
Listing them all and then saying "more advanced" and listing the casualties each time doesn't change anything. Don't kid yourself. Earth's planetary defences are useless.
 
He is not postulating that the Vulcans knew about Nero or the Narada in advance of the Battle of Vulcan, he is postulating that prior to the battle, the Narada may have abducted a Federation Starfleet officer in possession of Starfleet's planetary defense codes for Vulcan.

No, I'm postulating that when Nero entered Vulcan's star system, he would've needed to fight through the Vulcans' own defense ships and would've captured one of their officers to get the codes. I make no assumptions about whether the ships and personnel in question were Starfleet or local defense forces. I'm just saying that since that's what he did with Pike to get Earth's defense codes, it stands to reason that he penetrated Vulcan's planetary defenses the same way.


He is not postulating that Nero had access to Starfleet's defense grid codes for Earth.

Of course not. That's what he was torturing Pike for -- to get the Earth defense codes. It's right there in the film's dialogue:

NERO: You will give me the frequencies to disable Earth's defenses. Centaurian slugs. They latch unto your brainstem, and release a toxin that will force you to answer. Frequencies please, sir.


Which makes a certain amount of sense, since the Federation appears to be using a very different kind of warp technology in the alternate 2250s than it did in the prime timeline.

Well, first off, it doesn't make sense because his assertion is simply wrong: it's not that they couldn't scan at warp, it's that the Narada's drill created subspace interference that blocked their scans. Second, I don't see any evidence of a radically different warp technology in use. The perception of a "faster" warp drive comes from the way the film was edited, creating the impression that it takes mere minutes to get to Vulcan, but in that interval McCoy changes clothes and Kirk sleeps off his sedative, so clearly more time was meant to pass than the editing implied.



Well, when Star Trek stops featuring stories about the Federation being attacked by forces that are as advanced compared to it as the modern-day United States Navy is compared to the Continental Navy of the 1700s, I'm sure we'll see a more effective planetary defense grid.

But if the defenses work perfectly, there's no danger and no story. The only way you'd have a story where the Earth defense grid saves the day is if it's in a series called Star Trek: Earth Defense Grid. The responsibility for saving the day has to lie with the heroes of the story.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top