Post-DS9 Cardassia

[Jono]

Orbital bombardment could probably be carried out with relatively few ships, I would think. I mean, look at the devastation a single nuke can do, in our world--just imagine the yield of a quantum torpedo.

(Also, as an example, remember the Xindi attack on Earth in the 22nd century.)

Would have loved to see that on screen when Sisko orders the Dominion fleet put on screen you see the main force arrayed out to face them and then in the background you see ships firing on the surface and noticeable explosions.

As for how many planets were affected it would also depend on how many planets in the Union had a Jem'Hadar or Breen presence and whether or not the Founder's orders to kill the Cardassians reached these other garrisons before the Cardassian military started to actively turn on their "allies".

 

[bintak]

To me it cuts to an even bigger issue: is it me, or has the Federation got a habit of making and excusing some pretty shady allies? They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps--and same for a government...

Well, it's not like they have a lot of options. Consider the powers that surround them -- the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, the Ferengi Alliance, the Tzenkethi Coalition, the Breen Confederacy, the Gorn Hegemony, the Tholian Assembly, the Talarian Republic. Frankly, the Federation doesn't have a lot of nice folks to make friends with -- the closest would be the Ferengi Alliance.

And besides the point, peaceful and friendly relations are certainly better than antagonistic relations. The Federation ends up in a better position in terms of its security, and it then has the opportunity to influence the internal politics of allied societies so that they're less, well, evil. The Ferengi Alliance began instituting Federation-style reforms within 11 years of making first contact with the UFP; the last two Klingon Chancellors were installed by Federation Starfleet officers... Etc.

An alliance with an evil government is still just the best option.

This has never been historically true. Evil governments have a way of turning on you and causing considerable International Law and moral grief to you.

Iraq is the standard recent case or does the Kuwait War immediately following the Iran/Iraq War demonstrate the problem?

I could make a case that the Kuwait war and the Iraq war closely models the Dominion war as to ethically questionable causes and indefensible IL outcomes.

 

[Marie1]

Orbital bombardment could probably be carried out with relatively few ships, I would think. I mean, look at the devastation a single nuke can do, in our world--just imagine the yield of a quantum torpedo.

(Also, as an example, remember the Xindi attack on Earth in the 22nd century.)

True... that reminds me though... when The Defiant went after the renegades in "To the Death" O'Brien said a couple of quantum torpedo's would be enough to level the area. That area couldn't have been that large- only 150 Jem'Hadar, about 1/3 were in the building... whats the supposed "yield" of one of those QTs?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It's not the initial explosive force I'd necessarily be worried about, though that could be pretty bad. It's the fallout and atmospheric effects. Who knows just what sort of particles are involved when they say "quantum"...

 

[Marie1]

Ahhh... also true...

 

[superstring01]

I tend to think that the Klingon Empire was still weakening (like, say, the UK after WWII) and was probably struggling to keep its dominance over so many non-Klingon worlds. The Federation, being the natural superpower in the region, probably absorbed most of the Cardassian Empire. It's a metaphore for the USA & the UN.

It's probably in the interest of the UFP to rebuild and absorb Cardassia as a full member as quickly as possible.

~String

 

[Marie1]

I think Cardassia would have to "apply" to enter into the UFP wouldn't it?
I imagine the other powers will provide food, medicine, and help with protection until it gets back on its feet.

 

[superstring01]

I think Cardassia would have to "apply" to enter into the UFP wouldn't it?
I imagine the other powers will provide food, medicine, and help with protection until it gets back on its feet.

Correct. But the UFP could absorb it as a protectorate and occupy it as part of the final treaty during which time Cardassia could be rebuilt and allowed to apply in its own time.

~String

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Cardassia as a Federation member? Ugh...why? I don't think every defeated power should end up getting absorbed.

 

[superstring01]

Cardassia as a Federation member? Ugh...why? I don't think every defeated power should end up getting absorbed.

As Edington pointed out, the Federation's goal is to grow and seeks to bring all worlds to the Council. The Federation wants to bring everybody into the fold. Remaking Cardassia into a nation worthy of membership would be a great victory.

~String

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Cardassia as a Federation member? Ugh...why? I don't think every defeated power should end up getting absorbed.

As Edington pointed out, the Federation's goal is to grow and seeks to bring all worlds to the Council. The Federation wants to bring everybody into the fold. Remaking Cardassia into a nation worthy of membership would be a great victory.

~String

It would be a heck of a conquest, true. But I, personally, do not think that the Federation should absorb every other power it comes across. It would be nice to have Cardassia be a better neighbor--but I think that could be accomplished without their having to completely lose themselves.

 

[DS9Continuing]

I have a dumb question that was probably answered in a book or the series... but how many planets were affected by the Dominion's attempted destruction of Cardassia? They fell back to Cardassian space... but wouldn't most of the available ships and troops be in the air fighting? I thought that Garak and co. were on Cardassia prime at the time- so how many planets were affected?

It has been referred to in passing. In Demons of Air & Darkness (and others) it was stated that Cardassia's remaining fleet was rather pitifully small (barely over a dozen operating Galor-class ships if I recall, many of which were running in states of disrepair).

And in Fearful Symmetry, there are scenes of the Jem'Hadar attacking and slaughtering everyone at a prison facility housed on one of the moons of Cardassia Prime, thus implying that the destruction and bombardment happened within the entire Cardassian home system, but perhaps only that system.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It has been referred to in passing. In Demons of Air & Darkness (and others) it was stated that Cardassia's remaining fleet was rather pitifully small (barely over a dozen operating Galor-class ships if I recall, many of which were running in states of disrepair).

Where did you get the "one dozen" bit? The Trager was definitely operating with a lot of damage, though, and as far as I could tell was the ONLY ship the Cardassians were able to spare to help with the Gateways crisis.

 

[Sci]

To me it cuts to an even bigger issue: is it me, or has the Federation got a habit of making and excusing some pretty shady allies? They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps--and same for a government...

Well, it's not like they have a lot of options. Consider the powers that surround them -- the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, the Ferengi Alliance, the Tzenkethi Coalition, the Breen Confederacy, the Gorn Hegemony, the Tholian Assembly, the Talarian Republic. Frankly, the Federation doesn't have a lot of nice folks to make friends with -- the closest would be the Ferengi Alliance.

And besides the point, peaceful and friendly relations are certainly better than antagonistic relations. The Federation ends up in a better position in terms of its security, and it then has the opportunity to influence the internal politics of allied societies so that they're less, well, evil. The Ferengi Alliance began instituting Federation-style reforms within 11 years of making first contact with the UFP; the last two Klingon Chancellors were installed by Federation Starfleet officers... Etc.

An alliance with an evil government is still just the best option.

This has never been historically true.

Really? So the United States and the United Kingdom should not have allied themselves with the Soviet Union during World War II -- even thought they may never have been able to defeat Nazi Germany without the Soviet alliance?

I'm not saying that allying yourself with an evil government is ever a good thing, or that it's ever just easy, or that it won't contain risks and costs and consequences. I'm not saying it will never come back and bite you in the ass. I'm not saying that it's always, or even usually, what liberal democracies ought to do.

What I AM saying is this:

1) Sometimes, in especially dire situations, it is necessary. The US and UK needed the USSR to defeat the Nazis; the Federation needed the Klingons and the Romulans to defeat the Dominion.

2) When liberal democracies DO form alliances or agreements with evil governments, sometimes the result can be that their good "corrupts" that evil government's nature. Does anyone really expect the regime in China to survive as the world becomes more and more interconnected and liberalized? I don't.

 

[superstring01]

Really? So the United States and the United Kingdom should not have allied themselves with the Soviet Union during World War II -- even thought they may never have been able to defeat Nazi Germany without the Soviet alliance?

I'm not saying that allying yourself with an evil government is ever a good thing, or that it's ever just easy, or that it won't contain risks and costs and consequences. I'm not saying it will never come back and bite you in the ass. I'm not saying that it's always, or even usually, what liberal democracies ought to do.

What I AM saying is this:

1) Sometimes, in especially dire situations, it is necessary. The US and UK needed the USSR to defeat the Nazis; the Federation needed the Klingons and the Romulans to defeat the Dominion.

2) When liberal democracies DO form alliances or agreements with evil governments, sometimes the result can be that their good "corrupts" that evil government's nature. Does anyone really expect the regime in China to survive as the world becomes more and more interconnected and liberalized? I don't.

This is true. The UFP doesn't really "care" about the internal government (see: Prime Directive). It wants peacefully coexistence. For membership within the UFP, however, we know that the requirements are strict.

I still see the UFP as wanting Qo'nos and Cardassia to take their "rightful place" at the Council, though. Both seem on likely paths towards admission: the Klingon Empire was dieing and Cardassia was dead. After any nation collapses, it can be rebuilt according to the aid-givers standards. The UFP being the most powerful nation in the quadrant, is the likely Superpower to give that aid. With a Kitomer-esque peace treaty OBVIOUSLY on the horizon with Romulus, it seems likely that the only two signifigant concerns for the UFP would be from a resurgent Dominion (unlikely because it's obvious the UFP was not going to make the mistake of being caught with its guard down again and the Dominion pushed back through the wormhole) and the Borg.

~String

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Again, though, where does this notion come from that every nation's fate must ultimately be to be absorbed by the Federation? (Assimilated, if you'd like another word.) To rebuild is one thing, and a good one--but to absorb them...why?

 

[Sci]

Again, though, where does this notion come from that every nation's fate must ultimately be to be absorbed by the Federation? (Assimilated, if you'd like another word.) To rebuild is one thing, and a good one--but to absorb them...why?

Well, from a real world perspective, it probably comes from Gene Roddenberry, because his idea in early TNG was that the Klingon Empire had joined the Federation. It was later writers who retconned that so that the Klingons had always been independent. But Gene's notion was that we demonstrate that we can be friends and overcome our differences by having the Klingons now be Federation Members.

And I think that the Federation has every right to make that its goal so long as the Federation doesn't interfere with the rights of foreign states to refuse. In other words, the Federation has the right to have the peaceful and non-coercive persuasion of every civilization to become part of the UFP as its goal, so long as it respects foreign states' wishes when they decide not to join. It may be somewhat ethnocentric of them to hold that goal, but it certainly doesn't violate anyone's rights -- and it does have the side-effect of fostering interstellar peace.

 

[superstring01]

Again, though, where does this notion come from that every nation's fate must ultimately be to be absorbed by the Federation? (Assimilated, if you'd like another word.) To rebuild is one thing, and a good one--but to absorb them...why?

Because membership doesn't erase member worlds. It's a slightly more cohesive UN. Nothing brings security like having every warp capable world a member. It practically eliminates the threat of war.

~String

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

It doesn't erase member worlds, but it does force conformity to a greater degree than I think I would be comfortable with, and fosters a relationship of dependence upon a central nexus rather than alliance between equals. I, for one, would rather be approached to be part of an alliance, NATO-style, than actually become PART of an organization. (DON'T get me started on the UN.)

 

[superstring01]

It doesn't erase member worlds, but it does force conformity to a greater degree than I think I would be comfortable with, and fosters a relationship of dependence upon a central nexus rather than alliance between equals. I, for one, would rather be approached to be part of an alliance, NATO-style, than actually become PART of an organization. (DON'T get me started on the UN.)

I'm not defending the UN. I'm not even talking about the UN. I'm addressing the fact that the Federation considers its mandate to make all people members. The UFP is like the UN and being a member doesn't do much more than allow members to share the peace, and ensure tranquility from within.

~String