Post-DS9 Cardassia

[Nebusj]

Well, it's not like they have a lot of options. Consider the powers that surround them -- the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, the Ferengi Alliance, the Tzenkethi Coalition, the Breen Confederacy, the Gorn Hegemony, the Tholian Assembly, the Talarian Republic. Frankly, the Federation doesn't have a lot of nice folks to make friends with -- the closest would be the Ferengi Alliance.

It's one of Trek's bad production decisions: the idea that if anyone out there was going to be a good guy, then naturally they'd be part of the Federation. It's fine for the Federation to be the United States Writ Large, but its existence doesn't mean that the United Kingdom, France, and Brazil wouldn't also exist.

I can't tell --- I don't have the direct information --- but I have the sense that the Ferengi Alliance was originally-in-1987 conceived as being a sort of parody of the original Federation. The dropped hints about it being explicitly interventionist and viewing the Prime Directive as destroying opportunities for everyone involved gave me that strongest hint. So in that regard the `Humanization' of the Ferengi as it actually worked out would be also the discovery that they weren't so different to start. (Apart from not being a multi-species polity like the Federation was.)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well, it's not like they have a lot of options. Consider the powers that surround them -- the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, the Ferengi Alliance, the Tzenkethi Coalition, the Breen Confederacy, the Gorn Hegemony, the Tholian Assembly, the Talarian Republic. Frankly, the Federation doesn't have a lot of nice folks to make friends with -- the closest would be the Ferengi Alliance.

It's one of Trek's bad production decisions: the idea that if anyone out there was going to be a good guy, then naturally they'd be part of the Federation. It's fine for the Federation to be the United States Writ Large, but its existence doesn't mean that the United Kingdom, France, and Brazil wouldn't also exist.

More like the European Union Writ Large, if you ask me...

But yeah, I think that was a bad decision as well. It would've been nice to see some allies that didn't get themselves assimil--er...um...absorbed into the Federation.

 

[cultcross]

We rarely got to see a credible dissent within the Federation, either. Most of the time, the dissenters were shown as loony or violent. (Alixis, Eddington, Cartwright, Section 31, need I continue?) To see someone fundamentally disagree with Federation policy and be taken seriously as a character--that's not something I think I ever saw. You never saw a conservative that was treated as anything but a stumbling block, a blockhead, or an enemy: kind of the Cardassian problem in inverse. And THAT is pretty chilling considering the Federation was supposed to be a democracy.

I've felt the same way, actually. I always wondered if it was because we primarily saw Starfleet humans, who seem to be born and bred Federation policy regurgitators and non-Starfleet humans show a wider range of responses to Federation laws and policies. In the same way that Sisko's dad refused the blood screenings in Paradise Lost when all the Starfleet characters go along with it without blinking.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

We rarely got to see a credible dissent within the Federation, either. Most of the time, the dissenters were shown as loony or violent. (Alixis, Eddington, Cartwright, Section 31, need I continue?) To see someone fundamentally disagree with Federation policy and be taken seriously as a character--that's not something I think I ever saw. You never saw a conservative that was treated as anything but a stumbling block, a blockhead, or an enemy: kind of the Cardassian problem in inverse. And THAT is pretty chilling considering the Federation was supposed to be a democracy.

I've felt the same way, actually. I always wondered if it was because we primarily saw Starfleet humans, who seem to be born and bred Federation policy regurgitators and non-Starfleet humans show a wider range of responses to Federation laws and policies. In the same way that Sisko's dad refused the blood screenings in Paradise Lost when all the Starfleet characters go along with it without blinking.

And even when someone DOES show a different reaction, they seem to be looked at as kind of a throwback or superstitious or whatever.

 

[Bec]

Worlds of DS9: Cardassia by Una McCormack shows us what Cardassia might be like after DS9. It builds on some of the ideas of A Stitch In Time. Great read too!

 

[cultcross]

We rarely got to see a credible dissent within the Federation, either. Most of the time, the dissenters were shown as loony or violent. (Alixis, Eddington, Cartwright, Section 31, need I continue?) To see someone fundamentally disagree with Federation policy and be taken seriously as a character--that's not something I think I ever saw. You never saw a conservative that was treated as anything but a stumbling block, a blockhead, or an enemy: kind of the Cardassian problem in inverse. And THAT is pretty chilling considering the Federation was supposed to be a democracy.

I've felt the same way, actually. I always wondered if it was because we primarily saw Starfleet humans, who seem to be born and bred Federation policy regurgitators and non-Starfleet humans show a wider range of responses to Federation laws and policies. In the same way that Sisko's dad refused the blood screenings in Paradise Lost when all the Starfleet characters go along with it without blinking.

And even when someone DOES show a different reaction, they seem to be looked at as kind of a throwback or superstitious or whatever.

Eddington kinda had a point didn't he? "You're just like the Borg, only more insidious"
I think that's what made him an interesting character - he was a character who turned away from the Federation ideals without appearing (to the audience at least) a nutjob or an idiot. In fact, at least in For the Uniform, he seems to ahve it together more than Sisko does. His references to Les Miserables in that episode are not misplaced, imho.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I've felt the same way, actually. I always wondered if it was because we primarily saw Starfleet humans, who seem to be born and bred Federation policy regurgitators and non-Starfleet humans show a wider range of responses to Federation laws and policies. In the same way that Sisko's dad refused the blood screenings in Paradise Lost when all the Starfleet characters go along with it without blinking.

And even when someone DOES show a different reaction, they seem to be looked at as kind of a throwback or superstitious or whatever.

Eddington kinda had a point didn't he? "You're just like the Borg, only more insidious"
I think that's what made him an interesting character - he was a character who turned away from the Federation ideals without appearing (to the audience at least) a nutjob or an idiot. In fact, at least in For the Uniform, he seems to ahve it together more than Sisko does. His references to Les Miserables in that episode are not misplaced, imho.

I agree about Sisko coming unhinged in that episode. How was it that he didn't get court martialed out of Starfleet for unleashing a WMD on a planet?! I mean, yeah, Eddington did it, too, but Sisko supposedly had a higher ideal to uphold. What's principled about what he did?

 

[Sci]

And even when someone DOES show a different reaction, they seem to be looked at as kind of a throwback or superstitious or whatever.

Eddington kinda had a point didn't he? "You're just like the Borg, only more insidious"
I think that's what made him an interesting character - he was a character who turned away from the Federation ideals without appearing (to the audience at least) a nutjob or an idiot. In fact, at least in For the Uniform, he seems to ahve it together more than Sisko does. His references to Les Miserables in that episode are not misplaced, imho.

I agree about Sisko coming unhinged in that episode. How was it that he didn't get court martialed out of Starfleet for unleashing a WMD on a planet?! I mean, yeah, Eddington did it, too, but Sisko supposedly had a higher ideal to uphold. What's principled about what he did?

I've no doubt that he would have been court martialed if there had been any deaths from his WMD. But the fact that there was none, coupled with the Federation's irrational hatred of the Maquis for daring to want to secede from the UFP, meant that nothing happened.

 

[cultcross]

Eddington kinda had a point didn't he? "You're just like the Borg, only more insidious"
I think that's what made him an interesting character - he was a character who turned away from the Federation ideals without appearing (to the audience at least) a nutjob or an idiot. In fact, at least in For the Uniform, he seems to ahve it together more than Sisko does. His references to Les Miserables in that episode are not misplaced, imho.

I agree about Sisko coming unhinged in that episode. How was it that he didn't get court martialed out of Starfleet for unleashing a WMD on a planet?! I mean, yeah, Eddington did it, too, but Sisko supposedly had a higher ideal to uphold. What's principled about what he did?

I've no doubt that he would have been court martialed if there had been any deaths from his WMD. But the fact that there was none, coupled with the Federation's irrational hatred of the Maquis for daring to want to secede from the UFP, meant that nothing happened.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the reason - there weren't any casualties to splay their faces all over the 21:00 Hours News (Not quite the same ring to it in the 24th century ) so the public wouldn't get their moral outrage up and running, and the planet was a Maquis base, so the Federation don't shed any tears over its loss. Which is hard to fathom, really - I realise Class M planets are rather stupidly easy to come by on Star Trek but it seems a bit much to just overlook unleashing a wmd on one out of, essentially, angry revenge.

 

[Jono]

I agree about Sisko coming unhinged in that episode. How was it that he didn't get court martialed out of Starfleet for unleashing a WMD on a planet?! I mean, yeah, Eddington did it, too, but Sisko supposedly had a higher ideal to uphold. What's principled about what he did?

I've no doubt that he would have been court martialed if there had been any deaths from his WMD. But the fact that there was none, coupled with the Federation's irrational hatred of the Maquis for daring to want to secede from the UFP, meant that nothing happened.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the reason - there weren't any casualties to splay their faces all over the 21:00 Hours News (Not quite the same ring to it in the 24th century ) so the public wouldn't get their moral outrage up and running, and the planet was a Maquis base, so the Federation don't shed any tears over its loss. Which is hard to fathom, really - I realise Class M planets are rather stupidly easy to come by on Star Trek but it seems a bit much to just overlook unleashing a wmd on one out of, essentially, angry revenge.

You also get the positive spin that can be placed on the fact that the displaced Cardassian colonists from the Maquis' initial surprise attack can apparently just swap planets with the Maquis colonists. That would have got the Feds some points from the Cardassian government, making Starfleet hesitate from taking action against Sisko lest it send the Cardassians the wrong message. Then you have Sisko's role as the Emissary to the Bajoran Prophets and if you imprision him or boot him out of service relations with the Bajorans could be damaged. Bajoran could just recruit him into their Militia order Starfleet out of Deep Space 9, or say that they want a Bajoran militia officer in command and Sisko could be back in command of the station and if Starfleet still has a presence, they would be then at his whim and no longer have any control over him or his actions.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I've no doubt that he would have been court martialed if there had been any deaths from his WMD. But the fact that there was none, coupled with the Federation's irrational hatred of the Maquis for daring to want to secede from the UFP, meant that nothing happened.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the reason - there weren't any casualties to splay their faces all over the 21:00 Hours News (Not quite the same ring to it in the 24th century ) so the public wouldn't get their moral outrage up and running, and the planet was a Maquis base, so the Federation don't shed any tears over its loss. Which is hard to fathom, really - I realise Class M planets are rather stupidly easy to come by on Star Trek but it seems a bit much to just overlook unleashing a wmd on one out of, essentially, angry revenge.

You also get the positive spin that can be placed on the fact that the displaced Cardassian colonists from the Maquis' initial surprise attack can apparently just swap planets with the Maquis colonists. That would have got the Feds some points from the Cardassian government, making Starfleet hesitate from taking action against Sisko lest it send the Cardassians the wrong message. Then you have Sisko's role as the Emissary to the Bajoran Prophets and if you imprision him or boot him out of service relations with the Bajorans could be damaged. Bajoran could just recruit him into their Militia order Starfleet out of Deep Space 9, or say that they want a Bajoran militia officer in command and Sisko could be back in command of the station and if Starfleet still has a presence, they would be then at his whim and no longer have any control over him or his actions.

Even though there were no deaths, the potential for them was definitely there if ANYTHING had gone wrong. Those Cardassians on the evacuating ship almost died. While that wasn't Sisko's doing, who knows what could've gone wrong with the Maquis evacuation--and don't forget, we can't prove everyone on that planet was a Maquis sympathizer. Some people may have just been there with family. So innocent people, and children get run out of their homes because a nutter decides to launch a WMD? I don't think so.

And switch planets? So? Both people got run out of the place they were calling home. And who knows what was done to the ecosystems of those planets? Are they even getting planets that are going to be any use to them?

 

[Jono]

^ Innocent people are always displaced and killed in armed conflicts. Not making excuses but the Maquis were a significant risk to peace and stability in that area of the quadrant. Starfleet or the Federation might make the trade off that this event, while devastating to hundreds or thousands of people, is worth the cost of keeping the Cardassians appeased and onside.

Given the devastating power of weapons in the 24th century they might have a different view on WMDs. A single photon torpedo potentially has the power to kill millions and no one blinks at their usage. Maybe there might be an element of that in the 24th century humans or the Federation in general have a slightly different view on "WMDs" and what Sisko did isn't considered all that bad.

Back to the post-Dominion War Cardassia, I don't think we've mentioned the fact that the Dominion handed over several territories to the Breen near the end of the war. You would think after the war the Cardassians would want them back. However, I can't see the Breen giving them back.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Given the devastating power of weapons in the 24th century they might have a different view on WMDs. A single photon torpedo potentially has the power to kill millions and no one blinks at their usage. Maybe there might be an element of that in the 24th century humans or the Federation in general have a slightly different view on "WMDs" and what Sisko did isn't considered all that bad.

While we can't be sure--there is a huge difference, with photon torpedoes, between ship-to-ship combat and orbital bombardment. The latter--as we saw with Lakarian City--is considered an atrocity.

There was definitely in that episode outrage at the idea that Sisko would use a biogenic weapon--the nature of the weapon itself was definitely part of that. So I really doubt the stance towards WMDs has changed much in the 24th century. (If anything, I would have expected that given the evidence that their politics take after today's liberals, that attitude to become even more stringent, although that's conjecture.)

Back to the post-Dominion War Cardassia, I don't think we've mentioned the fact that the Dominion handed over several territories to the Breen near the end of the war. You would think after the war the Cardassians would want them back. However, I can't see the Breen giving them back.

The Cardassians are DEFINITELY owed there, big time--especially since THEY weren't the ones who handed over said territory; it was Weyoun and the Female Changeling that did it. I have to wonder if the Federation would be willing to strong-arm the Breen to make them give it back?

 

[Damask]

The Cardassians are DEFINITELY owed there, big time--especially since THEY weren't the ones who handed over said territory; it was Weyoun and the Female Changeling that did it. I have to wonder if the Federation would be willing to strong-arm the Breen to make them give it back?

Hmm, I'm sure the Breen would counter with the fact that Cardassia had joined the Dominion and it was perfectly fine for Weyoun the Changeling to do that.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The Cardassians are DEFINITELY owed there, big time--especially since THEY weren't the ones who handed over said territory; it was Weyoun and the Female Changeling that did it. I have to wonder if the Federation would be willing to strong-arm the Breen to make them give it back?

Hmm, I'm sure the Breen would counter with the fact that Cardassia had joined the Dominion and it was perfectly fine for Weyoun the Changeling to do that.

Which Dukat did illegitimately, without the approval of the Detapa Council or any other government entity. Dukat was essentially a pirate at the time, NOT a legitimate Cardassian representative.

 

[Sci]

The Cardassians are DEFINITELY owed there, big time--especially since THEY weren't the ones who handed over said territory; it was Weyoun and the Female Changeling that did it. I have to wonder if the Federation would be willing to strong-arm the Breen to make them give it back?

Hmm, I'm sure the Breen would counter with the fact that Cardassia had joined the Dominion and it was perfectly fine for Weyoun the Changeling to do that.

Which Dukat did illegitimately, without the approval of the Detapa Council or any other government entity. Dukat was essentially a pirate at the time, NOT a legitimate Cardassian representative.

Of course, the problem there is talking about who holds legitimate governance on Cardassia -- who holds legitimacy with the populace? It's like trying to figure out who the real leader of Lebanon is right now.

 

[SoM]

Hmm, I'm sure the Breen would counter with the fact that Cardassia had joined the Dominion and it was perfectly fine for Weyoun the Changeling to do that.

Which Dukat did illegitimately, without the approval of the Detapa Council or any other government entity. Dukat was essentially a pirate at the time, NOT a legitimate Cardassian representative.

Of course, the problem there is talking about who holds legitimate governance on Cardassia -- who holds legitimacy with the populace? It's like trying to figure out who the real leader of Lebanon is right now.

Well, Dukat and his Dominion allies certainly had a honeymoon after their coup d'etat, culminating in their taking of DS9/Terak Nor - but it seems that the Cardies started falling out of love with the Dominion soon after they started losing. Which, of course, was then followed by the Dominion starting to take their frustrations out on the Cardassians themselves.

 

[Renvar]

Dukat's ability to "negotiate" for all of Cardassia to join the Dominion really wierded me out. At the point at which he announced Cardassia's entry to the Dominion, he had lost his standing with the legitimate civilian government and his rank of Legate because of his daughter Ziyal. What I'm guessing took place was the same thing that Weyoun tried to pull with Sisko, offering absolute rule of his government. The fact that Dukat had ties with the military that helped him gain support is irrelevant to the feelings of the Cardassian populace at large, and specifically the civilian government. The Dominion probably just swept in with their first big fleet, headed straight to Cardassia Prime, quickly and quietly disposed of the civilian government, and stuck Dukat in power as their puppet dictator, with the Central Command sitting on it's hindquarters all the while.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the civilian populace, and possibly some of the military, shouldn't be vilified as much as many seem keen to do. The Cardies were in no way ever unified in their desire to join the Dominion, and in fact most of them probably did not have a choice in the matter. Therefore, Cardassia shouldn't be completely dissolved as a nation-state, but rather allowed to reinstate it's original government and go from there. I also agree with those that said the Obsidian Order would have to go, and I humbly submit that the Central Command (or what was left of it) should be tossed as well, since they were most likely complicit in the coup d'etat.

Granted, it may have been necessary to secede some of the former Cardassian territories to the victors, especially those that had already substantial military assets placed on them. I'm pretty sure the Klingons would insist on it, and probably the Romulans if any of the territories were already close to home (since we know how much the Rommies like to play their cards close to the chest ). Cardassia itself would probably have to be left alone, for the simple reason that it's their homeworld and they need that to rebuild their civilization (if it wasn't too badly decimated by the Dominion already, another thing that's kind of left up in the air).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Dukat's ability to "negotiate" for all of Cardassia to join the Dominion really wierded me out. At the point at which he announced Cardassia's entry to the Dominion, he had lost his standing with the legitimate civilian government and his rank of Legate because of his daughter Ziyal. What I'm guessing took place was the same thing that Weyoun tried to pull with Sisko, offering absolute rule of his government. The fact that Dukat had ties with the military that helped him gain support is irrelevant to the feelings of the Cardassian populace at large, and specifically the civilian government. The Dominion probably just swept in with their first big fleet, headed straight to Cardassia Prime, quickly and quietly disposed of the civilian government, and stuck Dukat in power as their puppet dictator, with the Central Command sitting on it's hindquarters all the while.

That's the most likely scenario, I think.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that the civilian populace, and possibly some of the military, shouldn't be vilified as much as many seem keen to do. The Cardies were in no way ever unified in their desire to join the Dominion, and in fact most of them probably did not have a choice in the matter. Therefore, Cardassia shouldn't be completely dissolved as a nation-state, but rather allowed to reinstate it's original government and go from there. I also agree with those that said the Obsidian Order would have to go, and I humbly submit that the Central Command (or what was left of it) should be tossed as well, since they were most likely complicit in the coup d'etat.

They definitely shouldn't be dissolved--as proud as they are of their nation, doing that would be as stupid as the Treaty of Versailles...just ASKING for future trouble.

The Obsidian Order's successor (the CIB, I believe) would have to go; I agree. As for Central Command, I think what should be done with that is similar to what was done with the Iraqi Army: get rid of the nutty elements, but look for solid, reliable talent affiliated with the Cardassian Liberation Front. Some of those could be converted into the new Central Command. Unfortunately we don't have Damar to help with the selection process, but I would suspect that Colonel Kira, having dealt with the rebellion extensively, would have a good bit of his knowledge and intelligence about who would be suited for the position (coupled, as well, with Starfleet Intelligence's reports).

The trouble here would be to keep Section 31 from screwing with the process.

Granted, it may have been necessary to secede some of the former Cardassian territories to the victors, especially those that had already substantial military assets placed on them. I'm pretty sure the Klingons would insist on it, and probably the Romulans if any of the territories were already close to home (since we know how much the Rommies like to play their cards close to the chest ). Cardassia itself would probably have to be left alone, for the simple reason that it's their homeworld and they need that to rebuild their civilization (if it wasn't too badly decimated by the Dominion already, another thing that's kind of left up in the air).

How is ceding Cardassian territories necessary? Honestly, I think taking away any ante bellum territory would be a very bad idea for similar reasons to those I outlined in the second part of my response. And I am including the DMZ colonies in that. (Though in the case of those planets, if I were the Federation, I'd lean on Cardassia to institute some sort of home rule similar to what's been done for Scotland in the UK: ultimately answerable to Cardassia Prime, but with a higher degree of autonomy.)

 

[Odon]

They put Paul Bremer in charge of post-war reconstruction.