Post-DS9 Cardassia

[Renvar]

How is ceding Cardassian territories necessary? Honestly, I think taking away any ante bellum territory would be a very bad idea for similar reasons to those I outlined in the second part of my response. And I am including the DMZ colonies in that. (Though in the case of those planets, if I were the Federation, I'd lean on Cardassia to institute some sort of home rule similar to what's been done for Scotland in the UK: ultimately answerable to Cardassia Prime, but with a higher degree of autonomy.)

I think it would have been necessary, not only from a strategic standpoint, but also from a diplomatic one. Just because they shared a common enemy in battle, that doesn't mean that the Federation's allies are going going to stop looking out for themselves. The Klingons and the Romulans aren't going to just skulk back to their homeworlds while the Feds put the shattered pieces of the Union back together. All the parties involved lost hundreds of millions in the war, and based on what I know about their respective philosophies and customs, these two superpowers are going to expect something more out of it than just a defeated foe. That's not saying it's the right decision for the long term stability, but it is the realistic outcome.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

How is ceding Cardassian territories necessary? Honestly, I think taking away any ante bellum territory would be a very bad idea for similar reasons to those I outlined in the second part of my response. And I am including the DMZ colonies in that. (Though in the case of those planets, if I were the Federation, I'd lean on Cardassia to institute some sort of home rule similar to what's been done for Scotland in the UK: ultimately answerable to Cardassia Prime, but with a higher degree of autonomy.)

I think it would have been necessary, not only from a strategic standpoint, but also from a diplomatic one. Just because they shared a common enemy in battle, that doesn't mean that the Federation's allies are going going to stop looking out for themselves. The Klingons and the Romulans aren't going to just skulk back to their homeworlds while the Feds put the shattered pieces of the Union back together. All the parties involved lost hundreds of millions in the war, and based on what I know about their respective philosophies and customs, these two superpowers are going to expect something more out of it than just a defeated foe. That's not saying it's the right decision for the long term stability, but it is the realistic outcome.

The Klingons would probably try it but especially given that Martok has the chancellorship, I suspect the Federation could lean on them to renounce their claim. ESPECIALLY if the Cardassians decide to get really loud about Septimus III.

As for the Romulans...whether or not they actually feel said expectation would probably have to do with what they think they can get out of the postwar scenario. I think they could see potential for a bigger prize than a bunch of devastated, resource-poor worlds.

Consider this: if the Federation and the Klingons have to take the whole reconstruction burden on themselves--especially if the Federation does have to go it alone like I suggested, their forces would be seriously spread thin in the relief and defense efforts. The Federation would essentially be in the position of having to defend its borders AND the Cardassian Union's borders, not to mention be pouring in a HELL of a lot of resources into Cardassia if they decide to go for a full-out Marshall Plan. This after their fleet taking a beating in the War, and having known manpower shortages. Not to mention being psychologically exhausted.

The Romulans have been in the war the least amount of time. Comparatively, they may have fewer losses and more psychological reserves in addition to physical resources. With a heavily-burdened Federation that's having to administer two territories at once, and a pretty beaten-up Klingon Empire, the Romulans could definitely get up to some nasty tricks...things they might have reason to believe would score them a much bigger prize down the line, than anything the Cardassian Union has to offer.

 

[Jono]

The Klingons would probably try it but especially given that Martok has the chancellorship, I suspect the Federation could lean on them to renounce their claim. ESPECIALLY if the Cardassians decide to get really loud about Septimus III.

Why would the Federation care about what happened to Septimus III?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The Klingons would probably try it but especially given that Martok has the chancellorship, I suspect the Federation could lean on them to renounce their claim. ESPECIALLY if the Cardassians decide to get really loud about Septimus III.

Why would the Federation care about what happened to Septimus III?

It was MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE overkill. Where is the justification for a wholesale slaughter? The Eleventh Order could easily have been dealt a blow from which they could not recover without having to kill all 500,000. (And there was no statement anywhere to indicate that the 11th did any sort of kamikaze maneuver--the way it was described, the Klingon troops were responsible.) That's not a battle. That's a massacre.

Obviously the Cardassians have some hideous things in their past, and I'm not justifying a bit of it. But Septimus III would, in the Cardassians' eyes, be the most recent in a string of abuses by the Klingons--including the unjustified war that arguably paved the way for the Dominion to take over the Union. If I were them, I would not want a single Klingon in Cardassian territory: they probably would be concerned the Klingons might take the opportunity to finish the genocide the Dominion started. True, Martok's leadership probably means that wouldn't really happen. But if I were a Cardassian, I would not trust that without their having to prove themselves over a long period of time.

 

[Jono]

It was MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE overkill. Where is the justification for a wholesale slaughter? The Eleventh Order could easily have been dealt a blow from which they could not recover without having to kill all 500,000. (And there was no statement anywhere to indicate that the 11th did any sort of kamikaze maneuver--the way it was described, the Klingon troops were responsible.) That's not a battle. That's a massacre.

Obviously the Cardassians have some hideous things in their past, and I'm not justifying a bit of it. But Septimus III would, in the Cardassians' eyes, be the most recent in a string of abuses by the Klingons--including the unjustified war that arguably paved the way for the Dominion to take over the Union. If I were them, I would not want a single Klingon in Cardassian territory: they probably would be concerned the Klingons might take the opportunity to finish the genocide the Dominion started. True, Martok's leadership probably means that wouldn't really happen. But if I were a Cardassian, I would not trust that without their having to prove themselves over a long period of time.

Still don't see why the Federation would care. The Cardassians were the enemy at the time and from the reports the Klingons destroyed a military force that have half a million soldiers at is disposal. That's how you win wars, you take away the enemies ability and will to fight.

We don't know much about that battle anyway. The Cardassians could have decided to fight to the last out of stubbornness or because the commanders believed, like Damar did, that the Dominion would reinforce them. However, given what we know of the Klingons there is a high chance that they went a bit over the top. I think it was Nor the Battle to the Strong that one of the doctors/nurses said that in the heat of battle Klingons don't care if you're in medical scrubs, they are likely to lop your head off with a bat'leth.

If I were the Federation or Klingons I wouldn't be too trusting of the Cardassians either.

 

[Timo]

Not to mention that the Klingons would probably have more influence on the Federation immediately after the war than ever before. They had saved the Federation's bacon, after all. They could make all sorts of "reasonable" demands and expect them to be met.

I think it all would mostly depend on the wormhole, though. If it still works, any territory close to Bajor would be strategically important to all players. If the Prophets continue to ban all traffic, though (excluding Odo's mission of mercy and Kira's return flight), then both Romulans and Klingons would probably have much better targets for conquest than the ravaged lands of a has-been enemy far away from their home territory, and would readily use their de facto positions on former Cardassian turf as bargaining chips, buying until the last chip was gone.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Renvar]

^It could play out that way too. Either way, the Cardies former homelands are footing the bill. You could call it "diplomatic plundering."

As for Septimus III, we do have a shortage of information. However, even if the Klingons planned to slaughter the entire Eleventh Order outright, so what? They're Klingons. That's kind of what they are known for. Hell, they probably had their opera boys write several epics about the battle. It's not something they're going to be ashamed about, and it won't be something that can be used against them at the bargaining table.

 

[SoM]

^It could play out that way too. Either way, the Cardies former homelands are footing the bill. You could call it "diplomatic plundering."

As for Septimus III, we do have a shortage of information. However, even if the Klingons planned to slaughter the entire Eleventh Order outright, so what? They're Klingons. That's kind of what they are known for. Hell, they probably had their opera boys write several epics about the battle. It's not something they're going to be ashamed about, and it won't be something that can be used against them at the bargaining table.

Indeed. It's something that makes me a bit uncomfortable about the "cult of St. Martok" sometimes seen around these parts. The guy's a sensible, pragmatic Klingon... but he's still very much a Klingon, down to laughing and celebrating in the ruins of Cardassia Prime.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

^It could play out that way too. Either way, the Cardies former homelands are footing the bill. You could call it "diplomatic plundering."

As for Septimus III, we do have a shortage of information. However, even if the Klingons planned to slaughter the entire Eleventh Order outright, so what? They're Klingons. That's kind of what they are known for. Hell, they probably had their opera boys write several epics about the battle. It's not something they're going to be ashamed about, and it won't be something that can be used against them at the bargaining table.

Of course the retort to THAT is, "I don't care WHAT your DNA structure is--that doesn't excuse the fact that you chose to commit an atrocity." The relativist Federation probably wouldn't have the stomach for such an argument, but the Cardassians strike me as absolutists from a moral/ethic standpoint and I bet you they would say it.

 

[Sisko4Life]

I personally don't think the Cardassians were any worse than the Romulans or Klingons. They've just been victimized. Sure, they don't have the honor of Klingons or the morals of the Federation, but I think if the Klingons invaded Romulus and nearly conquered it the Romulans would pull off something shady like allying with the Dominion. Hell, they're more treacherous than the Cardassians. Aren't the Cardassians genetically xenophobic because they evolved from reptiles?

 

[Jono]

Of course the retort to THAT is, "I don't care WHAT your DNA structure is--that doesn't excuse the fact that you chose to commit an atrocity." The relativist Federation probably wouldn't have the stomach for such an argument, but the Cardassians strike me as absolutists from a moral/ethic standpoint and I bet you they would say it.

No proof it was an atrocity, no one ever says that the actions that Klingons took were wrong or unjust. Plus it was the Dominion that doomed the Eleventh to its fate by deciding to sacrifice them to tie up worthwhile Klingon divisions in capturing a strategically worthless planet. How much anger would the Cardassians direct at the Klingons and how much would they aim at the Dominion?

On that, since the Klingons captured the planet and since it was a Cardassian order's HQ it should be in Cardassian space. I'm sure after the Breen join the win at Chin'toka, Chin'toka is referred to as the alliance's only hold in Cardassian space. Looks like they forgot about the Klingons gains at Septimus.

 

[jealousblues]

Not to mention that the Klingons would probably have more influence on the Federation immediately after the war than ever before. They had saved the Federation's bacon, after all. They could make all sorts of "reasonable" demands and expect them to be met.

I think it all would mostly depend on the wormhole, though. If it still works, any territory close to Bajor would be strategically important to all players. If the Prophets continue to ban all traffic, though (excluding Odo's mission of mercy and Kira's return flight), then both Romulans and Klingons would probably have much better targets for conquest than the ravaged lands of a has-been enemy far away from their home territory, and would readily use their de facto positions on former Cardassian turf as bargaining chips, buying until the last chip was gone.

Timo Saloniemi

I tend to agree but I think the Klingons wouldnt have too much power, I thought at one point they mentioned it would take the Klingons at least a decade to recover from the war (having taken the highest losses).

I also think once the Romulans had gotten territory there would be no way to get them out.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Of course the retort to THAT is, "I don't care WHAT your DNA structure is--that doesn't excuse the fact that you chose to commit an atrocity." The relativist Federation probably wouldn't have the stomach for such an argument, but the Cardassians strike me as absolutists from a moral/ethic standpoint and I bet you they would say it.

No proof it was an atrocity, no one ever says that the actions that Klingons took were wrong or unjust. Plus it was the Dominion that doomed the Eleventh to its fate by deciding to sacrifice them to tie up worthwhile Klingon divisions in capturing a strategically worthless planet. How much anger would the Cardassians direct at the Klingons and how much would they aim at the Dominion?

I'd say they both get the blame: one for setting it up and the other for carrying it out in such an extreme manner.

 

[Jono]

^ I guess no matter how the battle actually went down, whether it was a highly honourable ordeal or an atrocity, those who lost friends or family would place the blame only on the group (Klingons) that did the actual killing.

 

[Timo]

However, they might not be allowed to voice their objections. After all, Klingons were good guys and Cardassians were bad guys in the war, from the point of view of those who won - so it would not be possible for the losers to complain about their losses, any more than it was possible for the Germans or the Japanese to mourn their losses after WWII.

It's not known whether the Cardassians inflicted major casualties on the Federation as such in the war; probably not. Nevertheless, if postwar Cardassia complained of something the Klingons did, the likely reaction of the Federation would be to say "you only got what you deserved", as there would be major UFP displeasure over the fact that Cardassian actions had made the war possible in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

However, they might not be allowed to voice their objections. After all, Klingons were good guys and Cardassians were bad guys in the war, from the point of view of those who won - so it would not be possible for the losers to complain about their losses, any more than it was possible for the Germans or the Japanese to mourn their losses after WWII.

It's not known whether the Cardassians inflicted major casualties on the Federation as such in the war; probably not. Nevertheless, if postwar Cardassia complained of something the Klingons did, the likely reaction of the Federation would be to say "you only got what you deserved", as there would be major UFP displeasure over the fact that Cardassian actions had made the war possible in the first place.

Dukat's unilateral actions made the war possible. We do not even know what percentage of the Cardassian people, if we could somehow get a poll where everybody would feel comfortable reporting their honest opinions, would have backed that alliance.

And who says the Germans and Japanese had no right to mourn the people that the monstrous dictators in charge of their country drafted as cannon fodder? Not every person wearing an enemy uniform was necessarily sympathetic to that political platform--though of course a good number were.

At least in modern society, nations have been called to account for their soldiers' actions even in wars where they were the victors. Had people taken the attitude you describe of "tough, you brought it on yourselves," I don't think we would've had the controversies over Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, or Haditha (the latter being an action where civilians were killed, the former two involving actual enemy combatants)--or perhaps most aptly, controversy over whether the bomb should've been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Given this, I would say there is at least precedent for such a complaint to be considered.

 

[Marie1]

In the novels, when it talks about the parts of Cardassia that are under various protectorates... is that a sort of aid/policing... do we know the details of that? In the novels, I think the Fed... or something other org. was helping Cardassia, cuz wasn't Keiko O'Brien helping? She wasn't SF... but...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'd like to HOPE that none of the other powers are flat out RULING Cardassia...to do so would be to stoke the fires on a future grudge.

 

[Marie1]

I'd like to HOPE that none of the other powers are flat out RULING Cardassia...to do so would be to stoke the fires on a future grudge.

I have a dumb question that was probably answered in a book or the series... but how many planets were affected by the Dominion's attempted destruction of Cardassia? They fell back to Cardassian space... but wouldn't most of the available ships and troops be in the air fighting? I thought that Garak and co. were on Cardassia prime at the time- so how many planets were affected? It seems ridiculous in the middle of a battle to divert ships, resources and troops to various planets for an extermination.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Orbital bombardment could probably be carried out with relatively few ships, I would think. I mean, look at the devastation a single nuke can do, in our world--just imagine the yield of a quantum torpedo.

(Also, as an example, remember the Xindi attack on Earth in the 22nd century.)