Poll: Janeway & Gender
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Tuvix was a season 2 episode. At that point the Doctor hadn't completely grown and developed into the "emotional" sentient he became later. This episode was in fact just one of many that allowed him to face emotional conundrums and helped him to grow and expand beyond his original programming.
So, no you don't ignore those episodes, however you need to consider that most of the episodes hadn't happened yet as of the airing of Tuvix.
Holding them hostage?
Tuvix was the product of a form of reproduction. He had nothing to do with the circumstances of his birth.
Some things are just that simple. Comes from working in the field and an abiding interest in the ethics of medicine.
This doesn't mean I don't recognize that it was a difficult decision for Janeway and one that weighed on her.
Obviously, it's not if people are still debating about it.
And yes, if keeping your granny on life support was going to kill two of my friends, I'd rip the plug out of the wall myself.
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Which only made me love her more.
To begin, I think t's faulty to compare her, blow-by-blow, with Kirk or Picard. The latter were both selected to command the Federation flagship, which means they had obviously shown their mettle at some point. Janeway, from what we could gather, was getting her first "major" command with Voyager, and was only supposed to be on a three week mission. Janeway got tossed into an unprecedented situation with an unorthadox crew, and had no support structure for command descisions in a hostile region of space. If she wasn't as "perfect" as Picard or even Kirk, it's understandable. For all we know, she was a complete basketcase in prior missions, but it wasn't as if Starfleet HQ was looking for a captain to explore the Delta Quadrant and said, "Janeway would be the best person for the job!" She may have even been the worst person for the job, but she had to deal with what life handed her.
My entire interpretation of VOY was that these were ordinary people (Paris, B'Elanna, Chell, Vorik...all unremarkable) dealing with an extraordinary circumstance, unlike those serving on the Enterprise who were extraordinary people from the get-go and were picked on that basis. And yes, Janeway had a penchant for irrationality, but it was acknowledged in both "The Omega Directive" and "Night." My only complaint was that they didn't explore that aspect of her character further, and in a way that would increase the drama of the show. Considering that she had to shoulder the burden of command for seven years, completely by herself, I'm not surprised that she occasionally flew ff the handle.
In conclusion, Janeway was a flawed person. So what? I found her to be much more interesting to watch than yet another cookie-cutter Starfleet paragon.
Tuvix was hardly on life support.
So, if keeping my grandmother--someone fully capable of surviving on her own, able-bodied, sharp of mind, and a productive individual--alive would kill two of your friends, you'd kill her?
Nice.
Of course he was on life support. His "life" depending on the "death" of two other people.
And yes, if it came down to it, if I had to kill your granny to save two other people, who are also productive, able-bodied, and sharp-minded, I would. This would be especially true if the hag had to punt the two other individuals out of the way to exist in the first place. .
He was born by a unique reproductive process. He was not on life support.
And this says all you need to say. Charming.
You have a lovely day.
You hit the nail on the head there, and that's exactly why I love the Janeway characters. She's incredibly flawed and it makes her interesting, it makes her human.
AND this basically goes for the rest of the Voyager crew. They're not perfect, but they're damn human and incredibly likable from my point of view.
Teya, I think what this boils down to in my opinion is that Tuvix, as likable as he might be, was simply an accident and not meant to be.
Letting him continue to exist would have doomed Tuvok and Neelix. I'm amazed that you're so willing to dismiss their rights to live in favour of Tuvix. Weren't they sentient beings as well?
You're advocating saving one accidental life at the expense of two.
Letting him continue to exist would have doomed Tuvok and Neelix. I'm amazed that you're so willing to dismiss their rights to live in favour of Tuvix. Weren't they sentient beings as well?
You're advocating saving one accidental life at the expense of two.
Tuvix was born via a unique form of reproduction that created one lifeform from 3. He was acknowledged as a sentient individual by Janeway herself.
I was an "accident." If my mother needed a heart transplant tomorrow, would it be ethical to take mine to save her?
Just because a birth is "accidental" doesn't render the progeny disposable.
It was a birth. It was described as symbiogenic reproduction.
That's a birth.
And what religious conflict do you sense? Are you making an assumption based on my avatar?
Your avatar, yes, and your view of Tuvix being 'born.' He was a transporter accident and the outcome of that was tragic for all involved - Tuvok, Neelix, Tuvix and Janeway. Not to mention poor Kes.
In my eyes Tuvix didn't have the right to decide Tuvok's and Neelix's fates - just because he was the merged product of the two of them.
Anyway, you and I will not agree on this or should I say neither on this, and that's perfectly fine with me.
In my eyes Tuvix didn't have the right to decide Tuvok's and Neelix's fates - just because he was the merged product of the two of them.
Anyway, you and I will not agree on this or should I say neither on this, and that's perfectly fine with me.
Well, you know what they say about "assuming."
My view of Tuvix being born is based on the statement that he was created by a form of reproduction. It's biology, not religion.
As the Doctor said to One years later, the Federation isn't in the habit of discriminating against a lifeform simply because he was created by accident.
Although I have no idea what "or should I say neither on this" means, it's obvious your mileage varies. I simply hope you can respect the differing point of view--as I do yours.
Oh for sure. I can definitely respect your views. I just happen to disagree and I think you're simplifying a very tough decision, not to mention that you ignore the fact that letting Tuvix live would permanently kill Tuvok and Neelix.
Regarding our differences of opinion, I'm referring to you not shipping J/C and asking us to not bash Seven in a thread that weren't even about her and where no bashing had taken place, still haven't btw.
Not to mention the discussions we've had in the other Janeway threads. I love Janeway, you obviously don't and I base that on previous posts of yours that I've read. Just another difference between us. Surely you remember.
And the av IS a huge difference as well. You're quite right that I do assume/think some of our different POVs regarding birth vs transporter accident stems from religion. Feel free to correct me if you're not religious. I'm not.
However, that doesn't make your opinion wrong, nor does it make mine wrong, but it might explain some of the differences in how we choose to view things and as I said...that's perfectly fine with me.
Regarding our differences of opinion, I'm referring to you not shipping J/C and asking us to not bash Seven in a thread that weren't even about her and where no bashing had taken place, still haven't btw.
Not to mention the discussions we've had in the other Janeway threads. I love Janeway, you obviously don't and I base that on previous posts of yours that I've read. Just another difference between us. Surely you remember.
And the av IS a huge difference as well. You're quite right that I do assume/think some of our different POVs regarding birth vs transporter accident stems from religion. Feel free to correct me if you're not religious. I'm not.
However, that doesn't make your opinion wrong, nor does it make mine wrong, but it might explain some of the differences in how we choose to view things and as I said...that's perfectly fine with me.
Tuvix is a tough episode. I'm honestly not sure what I would do if I were in Janeway's position, so it's hard to criticize her choice one way or the other. I'm inclined, however, to agree with Teya; what happened to Tuvok and Neelix--their 'deaths' as it were--was an accident, but what Janeway did was a deliberate, conscious act, and as such operating on a completely different ethical register. If Tuvok and Neelix had been killed in a rock slide, for instance, then Q shows up and tells Janeway he'll undo those deaths if she kills a lifeform he has just created, I'm certain she would have refused (not a perfect analogy, I know). The unconventional nature of their 'deaths', and the uncommon ease by which they could be reversed, as well as the cold arithmetic of valuing two established lives over a single one with as yet little traction, led Janeway down a fraught ethical path.
Conversely, I think if one is to condemn Janeway for her decision, then one must also condemn everybody who stood by and let it happen--including the Doctor, who, after all, simply recused himself on the basis of an ethical injuction against treating patients against their will, not the outcome of the operation per se; if anybody truly believed what happened to Tuvix was murder, then they were obliged to try and stop it. That nobody did either indicates broad complicity or a different ethical mindset amongst the crew.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Conversely, I think if one is to condemn Janeway for her decision, then one must also condemn everybody who stood by and let it happen--including the Doctor, who, after all, simply recused himself on the basis of an ethical injuction against treating patients against their will, not the outcome of the operation per se; if anybody truly believed what happened to Tuvix was murder, then they were obliged to try and stop it. That nobody did either indicates broad complicity or a different ethical mindset amongst the crew.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
And I think you are.
Regarding our differences of opinion, I'm referring to you not shipping J/C and asking us to not bash Seven in a thread that weren't even about her and where no bashing had taken place, still haven't btw.
Not to mention the discussions we've had in the other Janeway threads. I love Janeway, you obviously don't and I base that on previous posts of yours that I've read. Just another difference between us. Surely you remember.
You do make a lot of assumptions, don't you?
I actually find Janeway far more interesting as a flawed character who sometimes makes bad decisions than I would if I agreed with everything she did.
I'm a Christian Witch--which is another way of saying I'm a heretic, an extremely liberal heretic. However, I've already said that my opinion on this has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with what was described in the episode as a biological process.
Apparently, you still don't believe me on that. Your lack of belief doesn't make my statement as to where I get this opinion untrue. Sorry.
I never said your opinion was untrue, Teya. I said that I disagreed with you, but it didnt make either you or me right or wrong. Opinions are just that opinions.
And my assumptions...oh well...never mind. I truly don't care. I asked you, all you had to do was tell me...not true, which you did and that's it - end of story.
@Trent - I fully agree with everything you say. The ethical issues regarding Tuvix/Tuvok/Neelix are huge, and I think this will be an issues that will devide people and make us argue forever when it comes up.
And my assumptions...oh well...never mind. I truly don't care. I asked you, all you had to do was tell me...not true, which you did and that's it - end of story.
@Trent - I fully agree with everything you say. The ethical issues regarding Tuvix/Tuvok/Neelix are huge, and I think this will be an issues that will devide people and make us argue forever when it comes up.
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