POLL: Chakotay - Seven or Janeway

[AuntKate]

The "six-year" relationship with Axum in Unimatrix Zero doesn't really count toward Seven's maturity level for several reasons.

First, none of the drones could remember in real life what happened in UZ until after Voyager came along. IIRC, there was no restoration of previous memories, at all, and Seven only gradually came to appreciate the depth of her connection to Axum just as the UZ connection was dissolving and they kissed.

Second, UZ was a sort of "Utiopia" where they were together only intermittantly and then for short periods of time. I'm not convinced that Seven learned all that much about the give-and-take of a real romance while there.

Now, this doesn't mean that the love she felt for Axum was bogus--she admitted to Janeway at the end of UZ that it wasn't--I just don't believe we can put much reliance on her six year relationship in UZ to justify more maturity than we saw on the show itself.

If she had learned and retained much from being in UZ, she would have been a very different drone from the first. If those memories had been restored to her in UZ, she would have been vastly different after the episode ended and in the later seasons.

At least, that's my take on her UZ years--and I'm sure not everyone will agree with me.

I don't especially since all of Seven's memories were repressed while a drone. However as we saw in "Raven" & "Dark Frontier" once those memories returned, so did the experance that came with them. One of the results was seen in "Child's Play" were she associated the irresponsability of Icheb's parents with those of her own. Due to her remembering that, she was better equipped to be Icheb's protector.

The memories that were "restored" in those episodes were from the years before she was assimilated. She always had the memories of her Borg years--because she was haunted by them at times. What she lost for good was the memory of what happened in UZ while she was regenerating.

 

[teya]

The "six-year" relationship with Axum in Unimatrix Zero doesn't really count toward Seven's maturity level for several reasons.

First, none of the drones could remember in real life what happened in UZ until after Voyager came along. IIRC, there was no restoration of previous memories, at all, and Seven only gradually came to appreciate the depth of her connection to Axum just as the UZ connection was dissolving and they kissed.

Second, UZ was a sort of "Utiopia" where they were together only intermittantly and then for short periods of time. I'm not convinced that Seven learned all that much about the give-and-take of a real romance while there.

Now, this doesn't mean that the love she felt for Axum was bogus--she admitted to Janeway at the end of UZ that it wasn't--I just don't believe we can put much reliance on her six year relationship in UZ to justify more maturity than we saw on the show itself.

If she had learned and retained much from being in UZ, she would have been a very different drone from the first. If those memories had been restored to her in UZ, she would have been vastly different after the episode ended and in the later seasons.

At least, that's my take on her UZ years--and I'm sure not everyone will agree with me.

I don't especially since all of Seven's memories were repressed while a drone. However as we saw in "Raven" & "Dark Frontier" once those memories returned, so did the experance that came with them. One of the results was seen in "Child's Play" were she associated the irresponsability of Icheb's parents with those of her own. Due to her remembering that, she was better equipped to be Icheb's protector.

The memories that were "restored" in those episodes were from the years before she was assimilated. She always had the memories of her Borg years--because she was haunted by them at times. What she lost for good was the memory of what happened in UZ while she was regenerating.

Actually, it was never stated that she lost those memories "for good."

As a matter of fact, she seemed to have good recall of the relationship by the end of the episode.

 

[exodus]

The "six-year" relationship with Axum in Unimatrix Zero doesn't really count toward Seven's maturity level for several reasons.

First, none of the drones could remember in real life what happened in UZ until after Voyager came along. IIRC, there was no restoration of previous memories, at all, and Seven only gradually came to appreciate the depth of her connection to Axum just as the UZ connection was dissolving and they kissed.

Second, UZ was a sort of "Utiopia" where they were together only intermittantly and then for short periods of time. I'm not convinced that Seven learned all that much about the give-and-take of a real romance while there.

Now, this doesn't mean that the love she felt for Axum was bogus--she admitted to Janeway at the end of UZ that it wasn't--I just don't believe we can put much reliance on her six year relationship in UZ to justify more maturity than we saw on the show itself.

If she had learned and retained much from being in UZ, she would have been a very different drone from the first. If those memories had been restored to her in UZ, she would have been vastly different after the episode ended and in the later seasons.

At least, that's my take on her UZ years--and I'm sure not everyone will agree with me.

I don't especially since all of Seven's memories were repressed while a drone. However as we saw in "Raven" & "Dark Frontier" once those memories returned, so did the experance that came with them. One of the results was seen in "Child's Play" were she associated the irresponsability of Icheb's parents with those of her own. Due to her remembering that, she was better equipped to be Icheb's protector.

The memories that were "restored" in those episodes were from the years before she was assimilated. She always had the memories of her Borg years--because she was haunted by them at times. What she lost for good was the memory of what happened in UZ while she was regenerating.

Which were restored by the end of the ep. and she recalled everything.
It's the same thing.

 

[AuntKate]

Sorry--accidental double post.

 

[teya]

I was just looking at the transcript of UZ2 (thank you, Chakoteya for transcribing them!), and here is the conversation that supports my position. This occurs just as UZ is disappearing forever.
[FONT=Arial]
AXUM: You shouldn't be here.
SEVEN: Neither should you. I've wasted our time together.
AXUM: No, you didn't. It gave us a chance to fall in love again.
SEVEN: We've lost our only way to be together.
AXUM: No. I'll find you.
SEVEN: Axum.
AXUM: I'll find you! [/FONT]

Notice that Axum says they fall in love again. If she had had her memories restored, he would have said that she remembered their pasts relationship. At least, that is how I interpret his words.

Well, she wasn't in love with him for the 4 years she didn't remember...

I liken it to an old love you've lost touch with and then reconnect years later.

 

[exodus]

I was just looking at the transcript of UZ2 (thank you, Chakoteya for transcribing them!), and here is the conversation that supports my position. This occurs just as UZ is disappearing forever.

AXUM: You shouldn't be here.
SEVEN: Neither should you. I've wasted our time together.
AXUM: No, you didn't. It gave us a chance to fall in love again.
SEVEN: We've lost our only way to be together.
AXUM: No. I'll find y
SEVEN: Axum.
AXUM: I'll find you!

Notice that Axum says they fall in love again. If she had had her memories restored, he would have said that she remembered their pasts relationship. At least, that is how I interpret his words.

Edited to add: How much better would it have been for Axum to find Voyager and help them get home--and avoid the whole C/7 fiasco.

The word that gives it way is "again". which means they remembered falling in love the first time and will meet together in the real world and fall in love as flesh & blood.

It's the Martix. Neo fell in love with Trinity in the Matrix and again in their real world.

 

[AuntKate]

As I said, not everyone agrees. Fine with me. I just think that to claim Seven had been in a six-year relationship is a bit over the top when you consider what she was like all four years on Voyager.

I liken it to the Kellen/Chakotay relationship in "Unforgettable." They fell in love again, but they didn't resume their previous love affair.

Here is another conversation, this time from UZ 1:

SEVEN: Axum and I apparently had a relationship.
EMH: Oh. Romantic? There go those pupils again.
SEVEN: Your diagnosis is accurate.
EMH: Well, how ironic. All this time, we've been trying to develop that aspect of your humanity and it's been there all along.
SEVEN: Not anymore.

 

[teya]

Edited to add: How much better would it have been for Axum to find Voyager and help them get home--and avoid the whole C/7 fiasco.

Illogical given the distance involved.

Just as Janeway would never have let Seven go off on a quest of her own.

So no, I don't think it would have been better.

 

[exodus]

The UZ memories were not restored.

I was just looking at the transcript of UZ2 (thank you, Chakoteya for transcribing them!), and here is the conversation that supports my position. This occurs just as UZ is disappearing forever.
[FONT=Arial][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]AXUM: You shouldn't be here. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]SEVEN: Neither should you. I've wasted our time together. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]AXUM: No, you didn't. It gave us a chance to fall in love again. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]SEVEN: We've lost our only way to be together. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]AXUM: No. I'll find you. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]SEVEN: Axum. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]AXUM: I'll find you! [/FONT]

Notice that Axum says they fall in love again. If she had had her memories restored, he would have said that she remembered their pasts relationship. At least, that is how I interpret his words.

If you disagree with exodus and my rebuttal of the first post, you might respond, rather than simply posting it again as if it's gospel.

Especially since the "finding you and falling in love again" is a clique of every romantic story of to lovers that meet, are torn apart and are trying to reach each other to love "again".

 

[exodus]

As I said, not everyone agrees. Fine with me. I just think that to claim Seven had been in a six-year relationship is a bit over the top when you consider what she was like all four years on Voyager.

I liken it to the Kellen/Chakotay relationship in "Unforgettable." They fell in love again, but they didn't resume their previous love affair.

Here is another conversation, this time from UZ 1:

[FONT=Arial]SEVEN: Axum and I apparently had a relationship. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]EMH: Oh. Romantic? There go those pupils again. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]SEVEN: Your diagnosis is accurate. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]EMH: Well, how ironic. All this time, we've been trying to develop that aspect of your humanity and it's been there all along. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]SEVEN: Not anymore. [/FONT]

Ummm...they did until she got taken away.

 

[teya]

As I said, not everyone agrees. Fine with me. I just think that to claim Seven had been in a six-year relationship is a bit over the top when you consider what she was like all four years on Voyager.

I liken it to the Kellen/Chakotay relationship in "Unforgettable." They fell in love again, but they didn't resume their previous love affair.

Here is another conversation, this time from UZ 1:

SEVEN: Axum and I apparently had a relationship.
EMH: Oh. Romantic? There go those pupils again.
SEVEN: Your diagnosis is accurate.
EMH: Well, how ironic. All this time, we've been trying to develop that aspect of your humanity and it's been there all along.
SEVEN: Not anymore.

Context matters.

Seven was uncomfortable with the realization--as most of us are uncomfortable when faced with changes.

And Seven's usual response is avoidance.

Again, common behavior for many adults.

 

[exodus]

As I said, not everyone agrees. Fine with me. I just think that to claim Seven had been in a six-year relationship is a bit over the top when you consider what she was like all four years on Voyager.

I liken it to the Kellen/Chakotay relationship in "Unforgettable." They fell in love again, but they didn't resume their previous love affair.

Here is another conversation, this time from UZ 1:

SEVEN: Axum and I apparently had a relationship.
EMH: Oh. Romantic? There go those pupils again.
SEVEN: Your diagnosis is accurate.
EMH: Well, how ironic. All this time, we've been trying to develop that aspect of your humanity and it's been there all along.
SEVEN: Not anymore.

Context matters.

Seven was uncomfortable with the realization--as most of us are uncomfortable when faced with changes.

And Seven's usual response is avoidance.

Again, common behavior for many adults.

Also, wasn't she upset with Axium at the time and broke off the relationship? Isn't that what the "not anymore" refers to?

As you said, context matters.

 

[AuntKate]

Sorry for comfusion caused by double posts above-I'm using a friends mini and the teensy keyboard is a challenge. They put the apostrophe and quotation marks on the bottom for some reason, no doubt just to torment me. No disrespect intended.

 

[AuntKate]

She didn't recognize Axum or remember their connection in Part 1 (which is where the "Not anymore" quote comes from). They fall in love again in Part 2, when she has a chance to be around him more (the fall in love again quote is from the very end of Par 2). At least, that is how I see it.

In any event, their relationship would hardly be the same as a six-year long love affair in real life.

 

[teya]

In any event, their relationship would hardly be the same as a six-year long love affair in real life.

It was real to them.

That is all that matters.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why were thy living their love affair at ordinary speed?

Surely they could have lived a few subjective years a second giving the processing powers found hand in hand with their advanced technology? Especially since, they could have stayed in Unimatrix zero for a few hours while their meat was regenerating, or they could spend a century? Hell a millennium of not being Borg? Now that sounds just spiffy.

They were morons.

I think the memories were implanted. Auxum was a fake, but he was probably jacked up with a false history too because that's what they needed to get Seven on board and drag janeway into their war with the collective.

 

[PolloCaballo]

As for the "falling in love again" comment from Axum, I thought the dividing line between Seven and Axum's memories was the fact that Seven was severed from the collective when she was NOT in unimatrix zero (ie she was "awake" when severed) But Axum, at the time of that conversation, had not yet been severed from the Collective.

The Borg drones had no memory of UZ when awake, but their memories returned as soon as they slipped into UZ.

I think Axum added "again" to his comment because HE remembered falling in love with her (hence, it's a repeat for him) but SHE did not remember. However, Seven obviously had come to believe/accept that a relationship had indeed taken place.

That's my take on it anyway.

And yeah, I agree with what others have said. No Way "playing house" in fantasyland for any length of time counts as a legitimate relationship.

 

[AuntKate]

And yeah, I agree with what others have said. No Way "playing house" in fantasyland for any length of time counts as a legitimate relationship.

ROFL--that's a term I haven't heard in awhile, "playing house," but I think you nailed the problem.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Neo walked straight out of the Matrix thinking he knew what chicken tasted like.

 

[teya]

And yeah, I agree with what others have said. No Way "playing house" in fantasyland for any length of time counts as a legitimate relationship.

ROFL--that's a term I haven't heard in awhile, "playing house," but I think you nailed the problem.

So why doesn't it?

In UZ, the drones existed in a virtual reality--living their lives much the same way Federation citizens do. Remember that in the 24th century, there's no struggle with money, healthcare, racism, sexism or any of the other day-to-day struggles we have today.

It's not a fantasy, it's their reality.