Poll: Best version of the Enterprise

[enterprisecvn65]

Been aboard her several times, she is/was awesome.

Damn shame she can't be turned into a museum, just not practical with how much they have to rip her apart to get the reactor cores out and would cost way too much to put her back together.

Even bigger shame Enterprise CV-6 wasn't preserved after becoming the most decorated ship in US Navy history and the most important ship of WWII. I will NEVER understand how she went to the scrapyard when several other less historical carriers were preserved.

To me letting her get scrapped is the equivalent of building a strip mall right on the main Getttysburg battlefield.

 

[SPCTRE]

Damn shame she can't be turned into a museum, just not practical with how much they have to rip her apart to get the reactor cores out and would cost way too much to put her back together.

It really is, I would love to take a tour.

 

[Cyke101]

I think it was JJ's was of saying FU to the long time Trek fans by basically "I'm going to totally change your precious little TOS Enterprise and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."

We really have to stop taking things so personally on this board, as if Frieberger, Berman, Shatner, Takei, Abrams, Orci, et all were after each and every poster on TrekBBS, waking up each morning and wondering with the exact purpose and intention of, "How can I go out of my way to fuck up someone's fanhood today?"

 

[Ginger]

For me the original was the best, although I didn't always think that.

For a long time my favourite was the TMP refit, which is a beautiful model. It looks wonderful on screen and is an antidote to the cluttered, dirty ships of Star Wars, which of course are magnificent themselves, but clashed with the 'clean' aesthetic of Trek ships. However, with age I find the simple, clean lines of the original more appealing. There is beauty in simplicity.

The JJ-prise is the bastard child of these two, and while overall I don't like it, there are things I like. The nacelle caps, the white lights at the nacelle ends are good, but the overall proportions do not gel for me, and like the refit, but moreso, it is over complicated.

I like the NX-01 as it fits in the show (i.e. Enterprise), but to me not it the Trek universe - too greebly. I would also have preferred it without the bit between the nacelles, but I always had a soft spot for the Loknar.

The ENT-B should have been a vanilla Excelcior. The modified version looked stupid and those huge engines made the originals pointless - why keep them? Turn it into a shuttle bay, or have the new bits as shuttle bays, or something! And those humps on the hull killed the looks of the ship. It looked like a fat duck.

The ENT-C was nice, again as it was realtively simple. I would have loved to have seen Andy Proberts original though, and the fan renders I have seen make me wish for whAt could have been.

The ENT-D never quite did it for me, as it was too pretty. It was a beautiful design and it fitted, but I never liked the way it was wider than long.

The ENT-E was cool, but pure fanwank of a design I my eyes. Add to this the more aggressive role it plays in the film, it became more of a battle ship rather than a city in space like its predecessor. This is also sums up my feelings for the AGT 3-nacelled version of the D.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Love the original, but it looks like it's made of wood, and like it may come apart pretty easily. Love the refit, but it looks even more fragile, especially from the front.

My vote goes for the reboot. It has some ugly angles, but a lot of beautiful ones - and her nacelle struts and neck look a hell of a lot stronger than her predecessors.


*I've voting for "current favourite" rather than "best". As the archetype, the original is probably the best.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I think it was JJ's was of saying FU to the long time Trek fans by basically "I'm going to totally change your precious little TOS Enterprise and there's not a damn thing you can do about it."

We really have to stop taking things so personally on this board, as if Frieberger, Berman, Shatner, Takei, Abrams, Orci, et all were after each and every poster on TrekBBS, waking up each morning and wondering with the exact purpose and intention of, "How can I go out of my way to fuck up someone's fanhood today?"

You do have an excellent point that people do take things too personally.
Do I believe that prior to doing the things that many fans found very unpopular the people you mentioned above were rubbing their hands together going "Man I am so excited to fuck up people's fanhood with this move".....No.

BUT

I do believe that, depending on the individual, that sometimes a person that has complete or almost complete control over something like a popular franchise ST decides that THEY are the reason ST exists and, whether it's done by design or just happens, that person begins to believe they are infallable in their decisions and don't bother listening to what fans want.

In a way it's not surprising. Hollywood is full of egos and when someone gains control over something so big usually it takes a very strong person to keep it in the perspective of "Well I still do want include fans wishes in my decisions as well."

The most popular and blatant example is George Lucas. He made two extremely beloved film franchises and seemed to have his finger on the pulse of what fans liked, at least until the end of the 80's.

The he starts tinkering with the "Star Wars" films making changes that are very unpopular with many fans. The fans express very clearly that they don't like these changes, and I think at first they were usually civil about it. So how does George respond? He not only tells the fans tough shit this is how I want the films but he KEEPS adding in changes that only further upset the fans AND he refuses to give the fans the option of having the originals untouched in the best format possible at home.

Then of course the disaster of the prequels happens, which I'm not going to get into in detail, the most obvious symbol of George's failures being Jar Jar Binks. The reaction to Binks is SO UNIVERSALLY DISGUSTED BY ALMOST EVERYONE that Lucas really has no choice to drop him as a main character. But still, and I will always believe this until the day I die, Jar Jar's brief appearances in AOTC and ROTS were his was of saying "Fuck you" to the audience for not accepting the character and that he still believed Jar Jar was brilliant and was going to make sure he appeared in all 3 films, no matter how short.

Of course this situation degraded to the point where George Lucas seems to openly hate Star Wars fans and vice versa and he finally washes his hands of the whole thing by giving his creation to Disney.

I have no idea what happened to Lucas creatively. All I know is the man I see in the Star Wars documentary basically almost killing himself to drag the finished first film into the theatres is not the man I see in the Phantom Menace making shots saying how "Jar Jar" is the key to all of this.....The whole situation is sad really. Had he never made another film after Last Crusade he would be loved universally by fans. Now it's reached the point he loathes the people who used to love him and people actually make up reasons why the original triology was great IN SPITE of Lucas.

For the reboot I believe Abrahams wanted to let ST fans know in some way he was calling the shots now and he wasn't particularly concerned with the fans view of things. Do I think he was doing it maliciously...probably not, but it's like a new coach taking over a team and he let's the players know right away things are going be different than before.

The three most visible symbols of TOS are Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise. Since he can't make Shatner and Nimoy 40 years younger he can't really control those icons...but the Enterprise is another story.

First do I agree changes needed to be made for a 21st century film...absolutely...the original design simply wouldn't cut it. Even if they had just built a new model of TOS Enterprise and added far more detail an technology I still don't think it quite would have worked. But he could have done a great number of things that would have made TOS design up to 2009 snuff and still not look like a completely different ship then it was in the series.

Instead I truly believe he wanted to make his mark by making the Enterprise something that bears only the most superficial look, and an ugly one at that, to the original. He also shows this I believe by making the bridge an Apple store and the engine room a Brewery. It was his way of letting people know in the most powerful way possible that this was his show now. I mean they kept the original uniforms and just changed the design and material a little so it looked good on film....why not do the same thing with the Enterprise?

I know the whole Nero reboot gave him leeway to rewrite everything and it makes sense Kirk would be more angry and screwed up than Shatner because his dad was killed...but really the destruction of one starship to a time traveller change things so much that starfleet decides they whole design of the Enterprise years later is totally different than in TOS? Also apparently now they build them on the ground in Riverside Iowa?!?!? when it was never mentioned or implied before that was the case.

I know some people love the redesign but I hate it because it's ugly and I believe was Abrahams way of showing he was in charge. Not necessarly a FU kind of statement like Lucas did repeatedly, but still a statement nevertheless.

It also makes me respect the refit Enterprise in TMP even more. They could have really altered it to a much greater degree. But, despite the changes they made were significant, they kept the spirit of TOS ship alive in how they did it.......IMHO.

 

[BillJ]

...and don't bother listening to what fans want.

There's a quote attributed to Gene Roddenberry that has been floating around for a couple of decades now:

If I listened to fans, Star Trek would be shit.

Whether or not Roddenberry actually said it, a huge question comes to mind: which fans should a creator listen to?

The only thing any given creator can do is tell the story they want to tell and let the chips fall where they may. To listen to what the fans want is just courting utter disaster because for every fan you please, you're likely pissing off two or three other fans.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

...and don't bother listening to what fans want.

There's a quote attributed to Gene Roddenberry that has been floating around for a couple of decades now:

If I listened to fans, Star Trek would be shit.

Whether or not Roddenberry actually said it, a huge question comes to mind: which fans should a creator listen to?

The only thing any given creator can do is tell the story they want to tell and let the chips fall where they may. To listen to what the fans want is just courting utter disaster because for every fan you please, you're likely pissing off two or three other fans.

Well in a way Roddenberry is right. Obviously if you can't listen to every fan's idea. And I'm sure many ideas fans have are as bad or worse than things that get called dumb when they're put into the films.

But in lucas' case when you keep doing things to beloved films and the fans are literally begging you to stop or give them the option to own the unaltered versions in the best format available and he basically says nope tough shit and continues to change things. That shows a high level of contempt and disregard in making Star Wars what it is. The Fans were asking for nothing but the originals and lucas would have none of it.

Likewise Abrahams couldn't please every fan no matter what he did for the reboot. But the enterprise is almost sacred to st fans. All I think most wanted was a design that was good enough for a new film but was reasonably close to TOS design. Not a lot to ask and I don't think it would have hurt its appeal to the masses. But it wasn't considered apparently.
Fans can be stupid and unreasonable a lot. But some times they do make relatively minor requests and have good reasons for doing so.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

The Enterprise B is my least favorite- pointless add-ons just make it look different. I know the secondary hull had those splines added so they could have damage without altering the core model, but they look too much like a graft from the Galaxy class. I do wish they had kept those extra saucer impulse engines as shuttle hangars- they are still shown as that on the Bridges MSD. At least those would have made some sense- making them extra engines looks like Tim Allen was chief engineer.

I'm not a fan of the Excelsior class at all. I always thought the point of it was to BE ugly, as an antagonist ship. Oddly, while I am not a fan of Enterprise-B, either, I think the changes made to it make it look marginally better than the Excelsior.

From what I've read the genesis (pun intended) of the Excelsior is complicated. Originally Harve Bennett did intend it to replace the Enterprise after TSFS as the main ship (I'm assuming it would have been renamed Enterprise) and he wanted a ship with the grace of the refit 1701 but obviously more advanced and powerful too. A line I've heard often is he told the designers to make an enterprise that looks what the Japanese would design.

I believe a lot of thought and effort was put into the design. In fact from the side profile it does look very sleek. But from every other angle it looked either clunky or menacing.

I think its undoing was the way it was used in TSFS. As brave little Enterprise limped home there's this new hulking ship waiting there and then it's seen as a replacement when morrow says the Enterprise will be decommed. Scotty hates it, its captain is an arrogant jerk and then of course it's sent out to hunt down and recapture the Enterprise as it's being stolen. Then in a david and Goliath scenario our little battle scarred obsolete Enterprise manages to put on over on big bad Excelsior.

Of course Enterprise is destroyed and I believe the Excelsior was set to be the prime ship. But by this time it had been set up as kind of a bad guy the audience would have had a hard time embracing it as the new home of the Enterprise crew. Apparently Roddenberry hated it with a passion and saw it as a further attempt by Bennett to make st his own. Roddenberry had no power to change anything but might have raised enough hell over this one that Paramount gave in and the Enterprise A was born. Of course the Excelsior and its class played a major role in st and it lost its "bad guy" tag. But at the time I just don't think it could have been the new Enterprise after it was given such a mean introduction.

At any rate I've always laughed at the fact that even though Excelsior was supposed to be so much larger. The studio model of the refit Enterprise was about 2 feet longer in reality.

 

[BillJ]

But in lucas' case when you keep doing things to beloved films and the fans are literally begging you to stop or give them the option to own the unaltered versions in the best format available and he basically says nope tough shit and continues to change things. That shows a high level of contempt and disregard in making Star Wars what it is. The Fans were asking for nothing but the originals and lucas would have none of it.

I'd say the fan begging was quite small as the various Star Wars releases continue to sell like hot cakes.

Likewise Abrahams couldn't please every fan no matter what he did for the reboot. But the enterprise is almost sacred to st fans. All I think most wanted was a design that was good enough for a new film but was reasonably close to TOS design. Not a lot to ask and I don't think it would have hurt its appeal to the masses. But it wasn't considered apparently.
Fans can be stupid and unreasonable a lot. But some times they do make relatively minor requests and have good reasons for doing so.

I think the Abrams version is "reasonably" close to the original. Again: which one of us fans are "right"? Abrams has the same problem here: which fans does he listen to? Plus, if he is too close to the original, you have another set of fans claiming that Abrams doesn't have an original thought in his head. Once again, damned if you do... damned if you don't.

You set a terrible precedent and do yourself a disservice by subjecting your own ideas to whatever subset of fandom happens to be loudest any given week.

Apparently Roddenberry hated it with a passion and saw it as a further attempt by Bennett to make st his own.

The Excelsior model was designed to be easier to shoot than the Enterprise-refit. Which was an absolute pain-in-the-ass to shoot, from what I've read over the years.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

But in lucas' case when you keep doing things to beloved films and the fans are literally begging you to stop or give them the option to own the unaltered versions in the best format available and he basically says nope tough shit and continues to change things. That shows a high level of contempt and disregard in making Star Wars what it is. The Fans were asking for nothing but the originals and lucas would have none of it.

I'd say the fan begging was quite small as the various Star Wars releases continue to sell like hot cakes.

Likewise Abrahams couldn't please every fan no matter what he did for the reboot. But the enterprise is almost sacred to st fans. All I think most wanted was a design that was good enough for a new film but was reasonably close to TOS design. Not a lot to ask and I don't think it would have hurt its appeal to the masses. But it wasn't considered apparently.
Fans can be stupid and unreasonable a lot. But some times they do make relatively minor requests and have good reasons for doing so.

I think the Abrams version is "reasonably" close to the original. Again: which one of us fans are "right"? Abrams has the same problem here: which fans does he listen to? Plus, if he is too close to the original, you have another set of fans claiming that Abrams doesn't have an original thought in his head. Once again, damned if you do... damned if you don't.

You set a terrible precedent and do yourself a disservice by subjecting your own ideas to whatever subset of fandom happens to be loudest any given week.

Apparently Roddenberry hated it with a passion and saw it as a further attempt by Bennett to make st his own.

The Excelsior model was designed to be easier to shoot than the Enterprise-refit. Which was an absolute pain-in-the-ass to shoot, from what I've read over the years.

The various releases may have sold like hot cakes. But that doesn't mean there was A LOT of pleading for the originals to be released on blu ray. Lucas simply wouldn't do it of course the best way to show your anger is to not buy it. Star Wars fans though are generally so hung ho to own the best quality edition possible that they'll buy it changes and all figuring having any copy on blu ray is better than nothing. It doesn't mean a lot of them weren't pissed as hell at lucas and his actions.

I would bet a large sum of money that when/if disney releases the originals on blu ray unaltered with the best picture and sound available.......that release will completely destroy the sales record of any prior release and will probably be the best selling blu ray release of all time.

Yeah it's legendary how difficult the refit Enterprise was to shoot. Apparently when it was revealed it would be destroyed in III many of the shooting crew savored the thought of destroying it. But paramount stepped in saying are you fn crazy. This thing has cost us nearly a half million bucks over its life to build and maintain, build a smaller one to destroy. So the big model was spared.

This also way the enterprise d bit it in gen. It was hard to shoot and make look good on film and it was bulky so that's why it was deep sixed.

As for the reboot design we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it could have been done differently with way more respect to TOS design and not be a huge issue. You disagree. No biggie life goes on