A
Amaris
Guest
Only in your mind!!
Don't mess with me, man! You saw how fast I beat Saquist at chest!
Er ... chess.
Oh ho, now we see where this is going!
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw[/yt]
Plot hole city
- Thread starter William Wallace
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Oh ho, now we see where this is going!
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw[/yt]
You talk about calculating trajectories through black holes and their effects on temporal displacement as though this was an everyday event. We are dealing with a red matter black hole here folks. Something specifically engineered by cutting edge science (in the 24th century no less) to do what no black hole would dream of: time travel into the past. Normally you would get crushed like a bug before "entering" a black hole.
What computer, what other physicist, for that matter, would have adequate knowledge of how something that unique works in order to predict when Spock would come out, unless they had one to study and test?
Even NuSpock said time travel was a technologically created property of red matter black holes. Thus not something you would normally expect. Not something in any computer archive save perhaps Spock’s.
What computer, what other physicist, for that matter, would have adequate knowledge of how something that unique works in order to predict when Spock would come out, unless they had one to study and test?
Even NuSpock said time travel was a technologically created property of red matter black holes. Thus not something you would normally expect. Not something in any computer archive save perhaps Spock’s.
But black holes have been used to travel through space and time in Trek many times before ("Tommorow is Yesterday", TMP, "Parallax" etc). Even Species 8472 used singularies (depicted visually as white holes) to travel between universes - something Voyager duplicated with a retune of it's deflector (see also: the E-E's return in First Contact in a similar way). Voyager also predicted the opening locations of unstable wormholes.
Saying "only Spock Prime's computer could figure it out" is nonsense. If you accept any of the magical technology of Trek, accepting that they figured this out should be nothing.
Saying "only Spock Prime's computer could figure it out" is nonsense. If you accept any of the magical technology of Trek, accepting that they figured this out should be nothing.
Saquist
Commodore
Arguments aren't really about winning at least not as far as I've seen on this forum...their about blustering and posturing and you've certainly have out done me in that department but when it comes to addressing the point you're evasive...you prefer ad homs to directly countering the argument and that's never a win...
The conincidences weren't HAPPENSTANCE. They forced...Nothing about it was natural. Khan having not being schooled in 3D dimensional Space tactics not so far fetched or if you just think of it as a predilection or habit because we all have those BUT...they set that up well in the movie because Spock Picks up on the pattern after the first pass against the Enterprise and in the nebula... If a enemy has a weakness then let the characters know so that the audience knows that there is a strategy involved? Nero being a moron or vaguely not identified as insane isn't remotely the same. I have to shoot that one down. A better similarity is any BOND MOVIE or Austin Powers.
Saquist said:
Scratch that. Your argument was a while back and I definitely was confused on your points.
No, I didn't leave anything out as to the "real" reason because it should be well known since we've all seen the film and it's obvious he waited for the Red Matter...the point was..."He did nothing" in the 20 year span.
This isn't about Negative Proof.
You said he didn't need to do it now "kinda thing"
You've got to be kidding me. Your family and unborn child whose death sent you into a rage is not your FIRST Priority? You have abandon the flow of logic just as assuredly as the film.
I'm sure it's been pointed out many many times already, but the fact that you disagree with the motivation of a character IS NOT A PLOT HOLE!
Saquist
Commodore
Character movivations that don't follow the logic the story has put down...is a plot hole.
Once more...
Saquist
Commodore
That's perfect since I have no personal issues with the character nor a lack of understanding of the story as the facts have been applied according to the definition.
Other definitions point out that when characters don't see an obvious method for solving their problems it also constitutes a plot hole.
AKA: stopping the Hobus Star rather than destroying the timeline and his family in the process.
Many Time travel stories have this issue...like First Contact as the Borg travel across the Galaxy to Time Travel into the past rather than Time Traveling first and then Traveling to the physical location......Or why the Borg don't merely continue to try to assimilate Earth of the past...
Saquist
Commodore
What a co-inky-dink....I was going to say the same thing about you since you can't back anything up directly... LOL
I don't think it's made clear exactly what he was thinking. I thought it was pretty clear that the time travel was accidental, thereby meaning that Nero had no grand scheme in pursuing Spock beyond getting revenge against him.
At no point did I ever think that destroying the star in the past was an immediate goal of his or that he was in any way thinking that his actions would save his family in the future and that he would travel back and rejoin them. Yet you seem to regard this as his logical course of action - other than your own mind, where did you get this idea?
^ At the end, Nero says that he would rather suffer the death of Romulus a thousand times than accept any help from Kirk and the Enterprise. So I think by that time, Nero had all four wheels off the road, as it were. His goal was revenge against Spock, and destruction of the Federation in the past. His earlier conversation with Ayel (who suggests that they could stop what they're doing and return to Romulus as heroes, and Nero says no) seems to bear this out.
Between you, me, and the film, one of these has definitely abandoned the flow of logic. I don't know the details of Romulan lifespans but his wife most likely isn't even born yet in the Abramsverse. In fact, given the butterfly effect, her existence in the Abramsverse is not even guaranteed. He states his intention to save Romulus, but he has around 130 years to get around to it. Something that you have 130 years to get done is never a first priority. It's not like he necessarily intends or expects to be killed during his war on the Federation, but in a worst-case scenario all he really needs to do is let the Romulans know the date the Hobus star implodes so they can evacuate in advance if necessary. That the film does not show him doing this does not necessarily mean it did not happen. If the film simply doesn't show you something you wanted to see, that's not a plot hole by my definition, nor is it a flaw of logic, especially when the film fails to conclusively prove that it did not happen.Saquist said:
Nero did no such thing.
wikipedia said:
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Saquist
Commodore
LOL...what explanation have I given? That's what you're being so dense about. You think this about explaining something. I haven't EXPAINED NOTHING...nor do I wish to. And no "EXPLANATION" is valid unless directly derived in it's entirety from the story with no assumptions or speculations. The Movie has the burdeon of EXPLAINING it'self.
So you've stood behind everyone else and cheer-lead the Fan team. Sorry, that's not an argument...
Yes, it does seem to be that way but much of this can be drawn directly to the story's need to terminate the enemy at the end as many stories do. Like I said it' either an issue with the writer or the character. And since the writing and development has been so flawed from the beginning onward I'm inclined to believe this was a another contrivance to mere kill off the character.
Look at the development of the character from the beginning. They emerge next door to the Hobus Star. Presumably that's were Spock emerges too so why not do away with the star right there? He doesn't do that instead he proceeds directly to Vulcan and then to Earth avoiding the opportunity to put things right ON HIS OWN.
So then right before he destroys Vulcan and with intentions to doom the entire Federation he sabotages his revenge plan TOO by dropping his ultimate enemy off on a Federation Outpost. Sure he succeeds against Vulcan but his apparent plans for the entire Federation are curtailed by his own hand by not just FAILING to Kill Spock but failing to destroy the Enterprise not just once but twice and further failing to kill Kirk when he had the means to do so. He ends up dying as a direct result.
So then we arrive at the end and Nero is offered help to survive. To which he says. He'd rather suffer the death of Romulus a thousand times than accept any help from Kirk and the Enterprise which completely invalidates his motivation for Revenge. Nothing with Nero has been consistent at all. He'd rather die himself rather than stop the destruction of Romulus to which HE IS AVENGING HIMSELF UPON VULCAN FOR... He also rather die rather than have another opportunity to kill the object of his hatred....He didn't even gloat with Spock in the end over his victory over Vulcan.
At this point this isn't insanity which while abnormal still has a pattern. This is more about contrivances. These errors were made to Keep the Main Characters alive and because Nero was merely a PSEUDO VILLAIN designed to be beaten easily due to the time constraints of exposition of the 7 man Crew and Kirk's ascendancy to Captain.
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Romulans have just as long a life span as Vulcans.
Okay FIRST you say you don't know how long Romulans lives and that it's unlikely his wife isn't born nor that he will life to see it....
Then you say he has 130 years to get the job done...
You really have lost the flow of logic here especially considering that he proceeds to get himself killed after waiting 20 years just to get the stuff. (Then of course doing nothing during the intervening time) Within the story the conflict between his need for revenge and reason for his revenge is never compensated by explanation.
Saquist said:
This further proves your lack of understanding of the story.
1. They do not emerge next to the Hobus star. Nero emerges near the Federation-Klingon border.
2. Spock does not emerge in the same place as Nero. Spock emerges in the Romulan Neutral Zone.
Saquist said:
But he doesn't intend to get himself killed. I haven't lost any "flow of logic". He does indeed have 130 years to do it, that's a fact. The idea that a task which one has 130 years to accomplish must be done immediately is itself not logical.
Saquist said:
Which is a pointless comment given that ( as you admit ) he didn't have the red matter.
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I don't know about Spock, but the Narada emerges near a rather large star. How do we know that isn't the Hobus star?
You presume wrong. First, who says that's the Hobus star at the beginning? It's a star on the Federation/Klingon border. Space is visibly different where Spock emerges. There is a nebula where there was a star when Nero emerged. Does "We've arrived at the coordinates your calculated" ring a bell? And your earlier obsession that Nero couldn't have worked out the when and where of Spock's return? Have you forgotten all of that?Saquist said:
number6
Vice Admiral
So agreeing with people who disagree with you isn't an argument and anything you disagree with is a plothole based on your fabricated definition and terms of interpretation and anyone who disagrees with you and calls you on your obvious bullshit and attempts to irritate people who like this film is dense?? Is that your only purpose? It must be frustrating for you that so many people understand the plot of this film and you just can't grasp it. I would attribute this to your higher standards of writing, but you can hardly construct a sentence and you don't know how to spell. You've got nothing.
Keep changing the goalposts of your debate and insult people who actually have a point. I am sure that gets you far in real life.
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I don't know ... that sounds like management in a nutshell to me.
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