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Plot hole city: Part II!

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How is the location of Delta Vega a plot hole?

It is not.

I dunno - but by Saquist's impossibly rigid definition of "plot hole..."

It's not "rigid."

It's wrong.

It's erroneous. It's the use of a term to mean something other than what the term means, whether by mistake or for some other reason.

Some posters are getting sucked in to debating on an invalid premise: simply put, just because an individual poster asserts that some complaint about the continuity of this film with previous films or the use of faux or incorrect science in the movie constitutes a failure of plotting doesn't make it so. Therefore, there's no reason to engage in trying to argue that assertion by granting the inaccurate premise.
 
Sorry if it has been explained away elsewhere but how could the Enterprise travel for hours at warp away from Vulcan before putting Kirk off the ship, only for him to find himself on a planet from which he could view the destruction of Vulcan ? It would have had to be very close...
Kirk didn't view the destruction of Vulcan from the surface of the planet, though; he witnessed that event from aboard the Enterprise.

What Kirk (or we) saw, as he was in the cave on Delta Vega, was a visual representation, conveyed via mind meld, of OldSpock's perspective. It's been hinted that Spock's experience of the event may well have been telepathic and perceived from a great distance, rather than as a line-of-sight view from within visual range.
 
How is the location of Delta Vega a plot hole?

It is not.

I dunno - but by Saquist's impossibly rigid definition of "plot hole..."

It's not "rigid."

It's wrong.

It's erroneous. It's the use of a term to mean something other than what the term means, whether by mistake or for some other reason.

Some posters are getting sucked in to debating on an invalid premise: simply put, just because an individual poster asserts that some complaint about the continuity of this film with previous films or the use of faux or incorrect science in the movie constitutes a failure of plotting doesn't make it so. Therefore, there's no reason to engage in trying to argue that assertion by granting the inaccurate premise.

This.
 
Not plot holes or plot weaknesses:

1) Delta Vega in Vulcan's system;
2) Vulcan visible from Delta Vega;
3) Time travel works differently from other Trek;
4) Red matter doesn't make sense.

Plot weakness:

1) Kirk meeting Spock on Delta Vega is a too-convenient contrivance.

In the latter case, the writers didn't thoughtlessly introduce the contrivance in the script; they in fact provided an in-story explanation. The unlikely coincidence was created during the editing of the film.
 
How is the location of Delta Vega a plot hole?

Your request for information must be more precise to the explanation I've already provided.

I dunno - but by Saquist's impossibly rigid definition of "plot hole", Trek collapses in on itself the minute we see the ridiculous, impractical shape of (any) USS Enterprise.:shrug:

Unfortunately...going strictly by the definition has that effect...Corporal Captain is the first person (other than myself) to actual post that definition.


Well, technically...it can be considered a plot hole.

Not within any meaningful definition of "plot hole."

In fact, no violation of science is "technically" - to use your term - a plot hole. "Plot" is a word that means something specific in regard to storytelling, the fact that bloggers at Cracked.com or other sites use it lazily notwithstanding.

Again.
IF the science is INVOLVED with the plot then it is by nature a plot hole. Just as SURELY as When the T-Rex is walking on solid ground behind the Electrical Fence in Jurrasic Park and then SUV SOMEHOW Falls over a huge cliff that wasn't there before...

The question is where did the cliff come from? (Jurrasic Park)
In Trek 09 with the supernova: The question is how can a supernova threaten an entire Galaxy...?
Or How can a Black hole swallow Vulcan but not destroy Delta Vega?

Since these events are DIRECTLY connected to the plot. The Nova being the instigator of the events, Delta Vega's destruction would kill the main characters, then logically it's a plot hole.

(Even stargate knew that a planet in proximity to a black hole would disintegrate)

I didn't realize that a questionable scientific explanation or a poorly constructed expression of technobabble constitutes a bona fide plot hole anyway.


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole:
A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
I agree with those who have been saying that neither the collapse of Vulcan nor the supernova that destroyed Romulus can get filed under illogical or impossible events, any more than the behavior of the Genesis Device can.
False: The genesis device is a purely conjured plot device with no former contradicting basis in scientific fact just like Red Matter and no matter how ridiculous one may view the plot device it's presented as a "technology" developed from science and thus maintaining the flow of the plot's logic.


Since "red matter" was used when Vulcan was imploded, that event does not need to conform to any science we presently understand, any more than the slingshot effect does that propelled the HMS Bounty back in time in TVH.
That is ...one way to look at it and allow for it. However the way I see it is that they called the phenomenon a Black hole and singularity and those phenomenon behave a certain way under known physics (and in some ways out side it) Just like the Supernova they used no literary modifier to suggest such phenomenon would or might work any other way than a normal black hole or singularity as understood by science and that is the danger of using scientific terms when you don't understand them.

For example in Star Trek VI the Excelsior encounterrs a shockwave. But there are no shock waves in space since it's a vacuum. Nor could one travel at the speed of light to cover light years. Thus the writers MODIFY the term by calling it a "Subspace Shockwave" If they didn't use the modifier they term would create a technical plot hole just as Abrams-Trek committed.

If pressed, all the writers have to do is make up a new type of supernova not presently accepted by science, say that type of supernova was what destroyed Romulus, and voilà, issue resolved.
But they didn't and that's why it's not even lazy writing it's rather bonehead the choices they make if not down right ignorant.



In the latter case, the writers didn't thoughtlessly introduce the contrivance in the script; they in fact provided an in-story explanation. The unlikely coincidence was created during the editing of the film.

The final work is what matters. Not lopped off sections of the movie on the cutting room floor. If that explanation satisfies you then so be it but everyone is not privy to the cutting room floor scraps or the writers explanation or the DVD commentary explanation when they see the movie. The movie has to stand alone as one completed work. To suggest otherwise would mean the film is incomplete.
 
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Saquist, regarding my earlier post, first you disagreed with my summary of two points, evidently by declaring my assertion
Then, with respect to my argument supporting my first point, you admitted
That is ...one way to look at it and allow for it.
As for the second point you seemed to concede that if they had thrown just a few more adjectives on the technobabble, all would have been forgivable.

Sounds like you are indeed conceding that the the Vulcan implosion and the destruction of Romulus aren't necessarily plot holes [in the sense that the plot depends upon the occurrence of impossible events], but rather that a reasonable position is that the problem, if any, lies in the construction of the technobabbly explanations of these events, which is what I said to begin with.

As to the issue of shock waves in space,
For example in Star Trek VI the Excelsior encounterrs a shockwave. But there are no shock waves in space since it's a vacuum.
I'm afraid you are scientifically mistaken. Space is not a perfect vacuum. Indeed, in the first paragraph of ironically the very article I linked in the same post of mine, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova, it says:
A supernova is a stellar explosion that is more energetic than a nova. It is pronounced /ˌsuːpərˈnoʊvə/ with the plural supernovae /ˌsuːpərˈnoʊviː/ or supernovas. Supernovae are extremely luminous and cause a burst of radiation that often briefly outshines an entire galaxy, before fading from view over several weeks or months. During this short interval a supernova can radiate as much energy as the Sun is expected to emit over its entire life span.[1] The explosion expels much or all of a star's material[2] at a velocity of up to 30,000 km/s (10% of the speed of light), driving a shock wave[3] into the surrounding interstellar medium. This shock wave sweeps up an expanding shell of gas and dust called a supernova remnant.
I know this not from reading the article, but I remember from college that shock waves from supernovae traveling through the interstellar medium are one of the theorized triggers for the formation of solar systems. Indeed, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_and_evolution_of_the_Solar_System#Pre-solar_nebula:
Studies of ancient meteorites reveal traces of stable daughter nuclei of short-lived isotopes, such as iron-60, that only form in exploding, short-lived stars. This indicates that one or more supernovae occurred near the Sun while it was forming. A shock wave from a supernova may have triggered the formation of the Sun by creating regions of over-density within the cloud, causing these regions to collapse.[15] Because only massive, short-lived stars produce supernovae, the Sun must have formed in a large star-forming region that produced massive stars, possibly similar to the Orion Nebula.[16][17]
Granted the term "subspace shock wave" addresses most of the issues you indicated, but not the first one.

You know, I'm sympathetic to a few of the points you are making, as far as they go. But, it's just that these issues don't rise to the level of being plot holes. The issues here reside entirely within the selection of the technobabble.

If you were to say, "Hey, they need to write better technobabble in Star Trek 12," hey, OK I won't really argue it.
 
Well, technically...it can be considered a plot hole.
The planet was in orbit of Vulcan and wasn't destroyed aswell.

If you stick to the science side of Sci Fi...
You need several solar masses to even get a black hole. 10x the sun. And for some reason Delta Vega survived when it should have been shredded to pieces.


Vulcan was destroyed by a Red Matter induced Black Hole and once Vulcan was consumed the Black Hole collapsed posing no threat to Delta Vega.
 
Well, technically...it can be considered a plot hole.
The planet was in orbit of Vulcan and wasn't destroyed aswell.

If you stick to the science side of Sci Fi...
You need several solar masses to even get a black hole. 10x the sun. And for some reason Delta Vega survived when it should have been shredded to pieces.


Vulcan was destroyed by a Red Matter induced Black Hole and once Vulcan was consumed the Black Hole collapsed posing no threat to Delta Vega.


Actually, it's not necessarily true that the black hole collapsed, what is true is that it posed no threat to any other planet in the system because the black hole whould have the same mass as Vulcan. . . http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/blackholes/teacher/sciencebackground.html #5

~FS
 
Well, technically...it can be considered a plot hole.
The planet was in orbit of Vulcan and wasn't destroyed aswell.

If you stick to the science side of Sci Fi...
You need several solar masses to even get a black hole. 10x the sun. And for some reason Delta Vega survived when it should have been shredded to pieces.


Vulcan was destroyed by a Red Matter induced Black Hole and once Vulcan was consumed the Black Hole collapsed posing no threat to Delta Vega.


Actually, it's not necessarily true that the black hole collapsed, what is true is that it posed no threat to any other planet in the system because the black hole whould have the same mass as Vulcan. . . http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/blackholes/teacher/sciencebackground.html #5

~FS

True, but I assumed that the last flash of light when Vulcan disappeared meant that the Black Hole itself had collapsed.

Even if I was wrong I do agree that the black hole posed no threat to Delta Vega.
 
Sounds like you are indeed conceding that the the Vulcan implosion and the destruction of Romulus aren't necessarily plot holes [in the sense that the plot depends upon the occurrence of impossible events]...

The entire plot of The Wizard Of Oz depends upon impossible events. This has absolutely nothing to do with "plot holes."
 
Actually, it's not necessarily true that the black hole collapsed, what is true is that it posed no threat to any other planet in the system because the black hole whould have the same mass as Vulcan

For a black hole to envelop a planet in a short amount of time, it would first have to have sufficient mass to do so. Such a mass would have to be many times greater than the planet for things to happen so quickly (or for it to remain stable for that matter).
 
The plausibility of any explanation is going to be subjective. What may satisfy another person may not satisfy you.

My question to you is do you feel there are not any plausible explanations for the plot holes you see in this movie and you just want to rant about it?

Or

Do you really want answers? If you do, and you don't like the answers you have relieved thus far, then come up with your own.

If you don't think there are plausible answers then what are your motives here?

My motives are simply to promote discussion about what I view as plot holes/flaws in the movie's continuity. If there are things I missed or didn't consider, I'm willing to listen to them. But so far, most of the explanations I've read are weak or flawed. In my opinion, of course. I respect other opinions, even if I don't agree with them. So I guess the answer to your question is "both"; I'm here to get answers and rant at the same time. Coming soon: Plot Hole City Part 3! :p
 
Sounds like you are indeed conceding that the the Vulcan implosion and the destruction of Romulus aren't necessarily plot holes [in the sense that the plot depends upon the occurrence of impossible events]...

The entire plot of The Wizard Of Oz depends upon impossible events. This has absolutely nothing to do with "plot holes."

Impossible events are listed as criteria in the definition of plot hole given in the Wikipedia article. As I cited above, this definition reads:
A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
My take on what constitutes an impossible event is determined relative to the rules implicit in the narrative, including those inherited from the evident genre of the story.

For example, in a Western, a Colt 45 revolver firing ten shots without being reloaded is an example of an impossible event. If the sheriff uses his Colt 45, his only weapon, to gun down a gang of ten outlaws, without reloading, then that's a plot hole, right? It's even worse if the bad guys keep coming at him so that he doesn't even have the opportunity to reload. Something's wrong in that story that must be fixed.

On the other hand, The Wizard of Oz is a fantasy. However, the narrative structure of the film cleanly delineates the "real world" from Oz, by knocking Dorothy unconscious, switching to color, and then reverting back to black and white, allowing us to suppose that the events in Oz might have been a dream. I believe this delineation assists in the suspension of disbelief quite brilliantly.

I stated that my consideration was being made relative to that definition I had already cited above. The definition at TV Tropes also lists impossible events as one kind of plot hole.
Plot holes can come in many forms:
  • Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know.
  • Characters acting completely out of character.
  • An event does not logically follow from what has gone before.
  • Characters ignoring or avoiding obvious solutions to their problems, provided those solutions are obvious to the characters, and not just the viewers.
  • An event occurring that, given other details present in the work, is not possible.
 
Impossible events are listed as criteria in the definition of plot hole given in the Wikipedia article. As I cited above, this definition reads:
A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

If you take that definition literally, then, most fantasy and science fiction stories are nothing but "plot holes." The Lord Of The Rings and Plan 9 From Outer Space are equally unsalvagable as stories - as is all of Star Trek.

Fortunately for the world of literature and film, the passing use of the phrase "impossible events" in a Wikipedia article, without elaboration and more specific definition, doesn't mean a thing.

In fact, if one eliminates the phrase "illogical or impossible events" from the Wikipedia definition, it's a workable definition for purposes of discussion - and clearly eliminates most of Saquist's complaints from consideration as legitimate plot holes.

That three paragraph stub of an article, BTW, clumsy as it is, has generated a discussion page several times the length of the article itself which pretty much dismantles it. One remark is particularly germane here:

This entire page is rather dodgy. The entire definition of "plot hole" given here is flat out wrong. There is a big difference between an inconsistency and a hole. A plot inconsistency is something like... a character acting out of character (note that an unlikely event isn't automatically an inconsistency, even though it can be bad writing under certain circumstances). A plot hole on the other hand is something that causes the story to break down.

The TV Tropes definition better delineates the sense in which "impossible" is relevant to plot: an event which is not logically possible within the context of the work itself given other established "facts" within the story. Using those qualifiers once again most all complaints about science and continuity with other Star Trek are eliminated from consideration as "plot holes" within Abrams's Star Trek (the behavior and physics of real black holes are as irrelevant here as the behavior and physics of real cyclones are to The Wizard Of Oz), and Saquist is mistaken in claiming them as such.

However, the narrative structure of the film cleanly delineates the "real world" from Oz, by knocking Dorothy unconscious, switching to color, and then reverting back to black and white, allowing us to suppose that the events in Oz might have been a dream. I believe this delineation assists in the suspension of disbelief quite brilliantly.

That you find the movie more plausible if you consider it possibly a dream has nothing whatever to do with the integrity of the narrative itself. Baum's books treat the events as literal. Ditto The Lord Of The Rings, Dracula, Stranger In A Strange Land and any number of other successful and beloved works of science fiction and fantasy. Then, of course, there are fairy tales and superhero comic books (and movies, and TV shows) all of which hinge substantially upon impossible events and yet are successfully plotted.

There is only one respect in which "possible or impossible" impinges upon successful plotting, and that is the cited issue of what is logically possible given the context of the rest of the narrative.
 
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The plausibility of any explanation is going to be subjective. What may satisfy another person may not satisfy you.

My question to you is do you feel there are not any plausible explanations for the plot holes you see in this movie and you just want to rant about it?

Or

Do you really want answers? If you do, and you don't like the answers you have relieved thus far, then come up with your own.

If you don't think there are plausible answers then what are your motives here?

My motives are simply to promote discussion about what I view as plot holes/flaws in the movie's continuity. If there are things I missed or didn't consider, I'm willing to listen to them. But so far, most of the explanations I've read are weak or flawed. In my opinion, of course. I respect other opinions, even if I don't agree with them. So I guess the answer to your question is "both"; I'm here to get answers and rant at the same time. Coming soon: Plot Hole City Part 3! :p

Can you come up with your own answers to the plot holes you see?
 
There is only one respect in which "possible or impossible" impinges upon successful plotting, and that is the cited issue of what is logically possible given the context of the rest of the narrative.

My take on what constitutes an impossible event is determined relative to the rules implicit in the narrative, including those inherited from the evident genre of the story.
Seems like we said pretty much the same thing here.

Can anyone tell me whether my example with the Colt 45 is a plot hole? Thank you.
If the sheriff uses his Colt 45, his only weapon, to gun down a gang of ten outlaws, without reloading, then that's a plot hole, right? It's even worse if the bad guys keep coming at him so that he doesn't even have the opportunity to reload. Something's wrong in that story that must be fixed.

I did not say that I found the film The Wizard of Oz more plausible because it admits the possibility of a dream. What I said was that the clear delineation between what was "real" and what was "fantasy" seemed to me to assist in the suspension of disbelief "brilliantly", after listing two devices that made that delineation explicit (not only getting knocked on the head, but also the color shift).

By the way, even Tolkien uses a device in his books to clearly and explicitly delineate between the "real" and the "fantasy", which is to render the entire series of events a set of tales told in the Red Book of Westmarch, about a time of folklore in which magic had not yet faded (as it has today).

Am I implying that such devices are necessary to make me accept a story? Not even remotely. They are just an infinitesimal sampling of the infinitude of devices used to assist in the suspension of disbelief presented in a list never intended to be exhaustive.
 
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