Plot hole city: Part 3!

[CorporalCaptain]

They could have just beamed or shuttled down to some Federation outpost along the way, such as the one on Delta Vega, and used their communication equipment.

I would classify this as a weakness, at worst a minor one.

Well lets think about that. If they had contacted Starfleet and received orders the decision would have been taken out of their hands and it would have no longer been "the Enterprise against the universe". Worse, whatever Starfleet's decision, Kirk wouldn't have met Spock Prime and wouldn't have taken command of the Enterprise.

In other words it would have derailed the plot the writers went with so it seems to be a decent sized plot hole.

So my acknowledgement that it is a weakness just isn't good for you? I'm afraid you're going to have to come up with a better reason to elevate it to a plot hole than the idea that it would have derailed the plot.

Actually, upon further reflection I have figured out how to repair almost all of the difficulties in this issue and the issue of jettisoning Kirk. What if Spock expected Kirk to warn Starfleet when he was picked up on Delta Vega? That would justify both jettisoning Kirk and moving the ship on to rendezvous with the fleet without further delay. That places the blame squarely on Scotty's shoulders for dereliction of duty in switching off his space beeper to be notified that he needed to go pick up a pod 14 clicks away from his outpost. This is something that I've already asserted to be in character for Scotty, as far as I'm concerned. He was, you know, pissed for being sent there.

 

[Broccoli]

Oh, so it boils down to "I don't know the popular meme he's using, so I'll randomly reference something from an obscure site that very few actually know. That way, everyone will think I'm clever!"

No.

Mistake 1#
You thinking I care who thinks I'm clever.

I happen to like obscure references. It's telling (or revealing) to see who knows what. I wasn't insulting you nor was I trying to nor do I think like you so that you can make your remarks with any sort of accuracy to what I'm thinking. (although I think I'm fairly predictable).

I thought your comment was spot on though. Because by challenge is how I work sometimes. By the artwork was just awful. I though r/10 was generous.

Mistake 1#: The artwork wasn't mine nor did I ever claim it was. I nabbed it from two fairly popular memes.

But even if it was a rating on your comment. Do you really care that much? I know I wouldn't

Well, we know that much isn't true if your current post is any indication. You have a way of caring about things you say don't care about.

 

[Guartho]

I wouldn't call it a plot hole but having Kirk being the only one to associate the Lighting storm in space with Nero is more of a contrivance.

Kirk was also one of very few people on the ship, heck, in the entire fleet, who wasn't really really busy focusing on his job at that point. That could have something to do with it.

ETA: Ok, so I thought I was only a couple of pages behind, but I see now I was 9 pages behind. Sorry to bring this back up again.

 

[Gojira]

I wouldn't call it a plot hole but having Kirk being the only one to associate the Lighting storm in space with Nero is more of a contrivance.

Kirk was also one of very few people on the ship, heck, in the entire fleet, who wasn't really really busy focusing on his job at that point. That could have something to do with it.

ETA: Ok, so I thought I was only a couple of pages behind, but I see now I was 9 pages behind. Sorry to bring this back up again.

No problem bring this back up. You do make a good point. I also think the fact that the Lighting storm in space is also associated with his father's death made it easy for him to connect the dots in that moment.

 

[UFO]

So my acknowledgement that it is a weakness just isn't good for you? I'm afraid you're going to have to come up with a better reason to elevate it to a plot hole than the idea that it would have derailed the plot.

I’m sure that if our positions were reversed, you would not have accepted such a deprecating acknowledgment either. Further, I would have thought anything that derails the intend plot would qualify as a plot hole if anything does. Granted that the criteria around here do seem to be pretty tough.

Actually, upon further reflection I have figured out how to repair almost all of the difficulties in this issue and the issue of jettisoning Kirk. What if Spock expected Kirk to warn Starfleet when he was picked up on Delta Vega? That would justify both jettisoning Kirk and moving the ship on to rendezvous with the fleet without further delay. That places the blame squarely on Scotty's shoulders for dereliction of duty in switching off his space beeper to be notified that he needed to go pick up a pod 14 clicks away from his outpost. This is something that I've already asserted to be in character for Scotty, as far as I'm concerned. He was, you know, pissed for being sent there.

And in other circumstance Scotty probably would have been charged for that, but it shouldn't have mattered if the crew of the Enterprise wasn't incompetent, assuming your argument is correct.

I agree you could even argue Kirk tried to walk to the outpost despite the risk in order to warn Earth. But Spock would never have trusted such a slow and questionable method (Kirk was almost killed!). And there was no talk of contacting the outpost before Kirk was expelled. Which there should have been because Spock couldn’t have known he would be throwing Kirk off the ship.

My further reflections suggest that if the outpost could warn Earth, it could probably warn the rest of the Fleet as well. If not, Earth could do that. This was so vital it was certainly worth a little delay to make sure the message got through as soon as possible given the defence code situation and all. So they would have tried to contact the outpost first off. If they couldn’t raise it, then beaming down would have been necessary to find out what in the name of fluffy ducks was wrong! Beaming Kirk down was obviously the way to go in any event. So two birds with one stone.

Using the outpost’s communications gear was an obvious top priority in my view, so still a plot hole.

*** Edit: Now maybe the outpost relied on Vulcan for long range communications. But they needed to mention that because otherwise they just look silly. If they didn't know they needed to find out, ie, beam down if they had to.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So my acknowledgement that it is a weakness just isn't good for you? I'm afraid you're going to have to come up with a better reason to elevate it to a plot hole than the idea that it would have derailed the plot.

I’m sure that if our positions were reversed, you would not have accepted such a deprecating acknowledgment either. Further, I would have thought anything that derails the intend plot would qualify as a plot hole if anything does. Granted that the criteria around here do seem to be pretty tough.

Actually, upon further reflection I have figured out how to repair almost all of the difficulties in this issue and the issue of jettisoning Kirk. What if Spock expected Kirk to warn Starfleet when he was picked up on Delta Vega? That would justify both jettisoning Kirk and moving the ship on to rendezvous with the fleet without further delay. That places the blame squarely on Scotty's shoulders for dereliction of duty in switching off his space beeper to be notified that he needed to go pick up a pod 14 clicks away from his outpost. This is something that I've already asserted to be in character for Scotty, as far as I'm concerned. He was, you know, pissed for being sent there.

And in other circumstance Scotty probably would have been charged for that, but it shouldn't have mattered if the crew of the Enterprise wasn't incompetent, assuming your argument is correct.

I agree you could even argue Kirk tried to walk to the outpost despite the risk in order to warn Earth. But Spock would never have trusted such a slow and questionable method (Kirk was almost killed!). And there was no talk of contacting the outpost before Kirk was expelled. Which there should have been because Spock couldn’t have known he would be throwing Kirk off the ship.

My further reflections suggest that if the outpost could warn Earth, it could probably warn the rest of the Fleet as well. If not, Earth could do that. This was so vital it was certainly worth a little delay to make sure the message got through as soon as possible given the defence code situation and all. So they would have tried to contact the outpost first off. If they couldn’t raise it, then beaming down would have been necessary to find out what in the name of fluffy ducks was wrong! Beaming Kirk down was obviously the way to go in any event. So two birds with one stone.

Using the outpost’s communications gear was an obvious top priority in my view, so still a plot hole.

There was nothing deprecating about my acknowledgement of this as a plot weakness. What about my acknowledgment of it as a weakness was in any way even remotely belittling, insulting, or disapproving of the idea that it is in fact a weakness?

We've discussed the definition of a plot hole at length in previous threads and avoiding the derailing of the plot is not itself a criterion.

 

[UFO]

There was nothing deprecating about my acknowledgement of this as a plot weakness. What about my acknowledgment of it as a weakness was in any way even remotely belittling, insulting, or disapproving of the idea that it is in fact a weakness?

It looks to me you were down-playing the importance of the weakness when you wrote: "I would classify this as a weakness, at worst a minor one.". I feel it was fairly pivotal.

We've discussed the definition of a plot hole at length in previous threads and avoiding the derailing of the plot is not itself a criterion.

Perhaps I just prefer sensible definitions to the "correct" ones. Anyway its still a plot hole because they should have contacted the outpost for help (or explained why such an obvious action wouldn't work: see the edit to my last post) and they didn't.

To be fair, it may not have jumped out at you at the time but it does in retrospect.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So my acknowledgement that it is a weakness just isn't good for you? I'm afraid you're going to have to come up with a better reason to elevate it to a plot hole than the idea that it would have derailed the plot.

I’m sure that if our positions were reversed, you would not have accepted such a deprecating acknowledgment either.

There was nothing deprecating about my acknowledgement of this as a plot weakness. What about my acknowledgment of it as a weakness was in any way even remotely belittling, insulting, or disapproving of the idea that it is in fact a weakness?

It looks to me you were down-playing the importance of the weakness when you wrote: "I would classify this as a weakness, at worst a minor one.". I feel it was fairly pivotal.

To say this remark of mine is deprecating implies that I am in some way insulting anyone who disagrees with me, when all I did was assert how I classify it. Perhaps the word deprecating isn't the word you intended to use? Or did you really mean to imply that any expression of disagreement is a personal belittlement?

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deprecating:

Examples of DEPRECATE
<movie critics tried to outdo one another in deprecating the comedy as the stupidest movie of the year>
<deprecates TV sitcoms as childish and simpleminded>

(...)

Synonyms: bad-mouth, belittle, cry down, denigrate, decry, depreciate, derogate, diminish, dis (also diss) [slang], discount, dismiss, disparage, kiss off, minimize, play down, poor-mouth, put down, run down, talk down, trash, trash-talk, vilipend, write off

 

[Silvercrest]

- I don't think anyone's disputed this, but I just thought it was worth adding that Gaila is hot. She is so freaking hot that it would be a shame if she doesn't survive. Her being as hot as she is is not a plot hole. I just had to say that.

Actually, I'm afraid it is one. It is absolutely inconceivable that Kirk wouldn't find a way to get it on with someone that hot. And yet he didn't. Plot hole.

 

[Saquist]

Mistake 1#: The artwork wasn't mine nor did I ever claim it was. I nabbed it from two fairly popular memes.

Lay blame only on my words.
I don't care whose artwork it was it was just plain BAD...

Well, we know that much isn't true if your current post is any indication. You have a way of caring about things you say don't care about.

...and I allow you to maintain that illusion...
(bows)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

- I don't think anyone's disputed this, but I just thought it was worth adding that Gaila is hot. She is so freaking hot that it would be a shame if she doesn't survive. Her being as hot as she is is not a plot hole. I just had to say that.

Actually, I'm afraid it is one. It is absolutely inconceivable that Kirk wouldn't find a way to get it on with someone that hot. And yet he didn't. Plot hole.

You've got a point here. I stand corrected.

 

[UFO]

So my acknowledgement that it is a weakness just isn't good for you? I'm afraid you're going to have to come up with a better reason to elevate it to a plot hole than the idea that it would have derailed the plot.

I’m sure that if our positions were reversed, you would not have accepted such a deprecating acknowledgment either.

It looks to me you were down-playing the importance of the weakness when you wrote: "I would classify this as a weakness, at worst a minor one.". I feel it was fairly pivotal.

To say this remark of mine is deprecating implies that I am in some way insulting anyone who disagrees with me, when all I did was assert how I classify it. Perhaps the word deprecating isn't the word you intended to use? Or did you really mean to imply that any expression of disagreement is a personal belittlement?

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deprecating:

Examples of DEPRECATE
<movie critics tried to outdo one another in deprecating the comedy as the stupidest movie of the year>
<deprecates TV sitcoms as childish and simpleminded>

(...)

Synonyms: bad-mouth, belittle, cry down, denigrate, decry, depreciate, derogate, diminish, dis (also diss) [slang], discount, dismiss, disparage, kiss off, minimize, play down, poor-mouth, put down, run down, talk down, trash, trash-talk, vilipend, write off

Now you mention it, I did miss out an "i". Oops. I meant to write "depreciating". Though synonyms for deprecate like "dismiss", "minimize" and "play down" etc, seem appropriate if you take out a possible moral angle. Anyway I was describing your apparent viewpoint towards the importance of the issue under discussion, as explained above, not your attitude towards the people who hold it. Hope that clears things up.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Aha! What a crucial "i". OK, I feel a lot better, now. Thanks for clearing that up.

It is a weakness, and I wasn't trying to over-minimize it. My initial assessment was, eh, the whole point is the crew respects Spock, everyone's in shock over getting wiped, and they trust that Spock has everything figured out. Oh, and who the hell is this cadet challenging Spock's authoritay. Later Spock admits he's in the wrong.

I'll respect an opinion that it is more of a weakness than that, although I'm unconvinced it's an outright hole.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

So, after three lengthy and tedious threads no one has yet identified a legitimate agreed-upon plot hole.

It's time to put this exercise in nitpicking out of its misery and get on with the business of living.

 

[Set Harth]

There was at least one.

"Legitimate" and "agreed-upon" do not mean the same thing.

Evolution is not universally "agreed-upon".

 

[Guartho]

There was at least one.

I've completely lost track. Which one was it?

 

[The Dominion]

So, after three lengthy and tedious threads no one has yet identified a legitimate agreed-upon plot hole.

It's time to put this exercise in nitpicking out of its misery and get on with the business of living.

Why on Earth would anyone consider doing that?

 

[Broccoli]

Mistake 1#: The artwork wasn't mine nor did I ever claim it was. I nabbed it from two fairly popular memes.

Lay blame only on my words.
I don't care whose artwork it was it was just plain BAD...

As bad as your grammar? No, the artwork was better, and was suppose to be crude. That's the point, particularly with "Rage Guy". Clearly, you didn't get the gag.
Link 1
Link 2

Well, we know that much isn't true if your current post is any indication. You have a way of caring about things you say don't care about.

...and I allow you to maintain that illusion...
(bows)

Considering you continue go on about things you don't care about, it is clearly not an illusion. At least not on my part.

 

[M'Sharak]

All right, let's drop it now, shall we? More plot holes!

 

[Saquist]

I thought that was a plot hole!