Plot hole city: Part 3!
- Thread starter William Wallace
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This has been brought up before. You can safely assume that they didn't go all the way to the core.
No.
No you can't.
"The drill's been sabotaged sir, but we have reached the planet's core.
Launch the red matter."
Lol and this is a good example of no critique at all. It is also an example of how not to answer an open question.
^But your righteous argument is bollocks, based on the same old disproven stuff!
Did it occur to you that maybe Scotty and Keener didn't check their email inboxes or sensor arrays on the day of Nero's attack? They're the only two people in an enourmous outpost, at the core of the Federation, in peacetime, on punishment duty.
"Bloodlines" has subspace beaming, which was already a known technology to Picard and friends. And, I'm suprised Dennis hasn't said it yet, but "Tin Man" ends with an in-system transport similar to STXI's Titan/Earth one.Pauln6 said:
Someone pointed out "Conspiracy" earlier. Not to mention the Enterprise-E getting from (...wait for it...) the neutral zone to (....wait for it...) Earth in the blink or an eye at the start of First Contact.
Did it occur to you that maybe Scotty and Keener didn't check their email inboxes or sensor arrays on the day of Nero's attack? They're the only two people in an enourmous outpost, at the core of the Federation, in peacetime, on punishment duty.
Tut tut, your colourful metaphors display a lack of objectivity. I was careful to say transporting further than anyone IN STARFLEET (the notable exclusion being Picard who was just adjusting the Starfleet tech on a one off basis to replicate the dangerous (even by 24th century advancement) technology being used by a Ferengi).
I had also already conceded earlier in the thread that I thought Scotty in this movie was still trying to perfect subspace beaming but you should also note that other people in this thread disagreed that they were using subspace beaming at all. Just because we both think they were doesn't mean that we should use insulting language to try and force our views upon others when we are all just speculating. Thus I am still hedging my bets in my comments. I have always said I had no issue with the warp beaming since it followed guidelines similar to those established in TNG.
The key remaining issue I have is the sensor distance issue - I thought that the Ferengi used some kind of localised tracer to target the Enterprise and Picard tracked them back via the residual carrier wave, neither of which is present in this movie but I might be mis-remembering. The Enterprise's transponder could tell Scotty where the ship was but would not give him a precise location of all the people walking about inside. It was an issue that was fudged in the movie.
Once again, I say that the issue is not, for me, the inconsistent speeds to various locations that have always existed but rather inconsistent COMPARATIVE SPEEDS in the same story. By my reckoning that can represent a plot hole.
And finally, it shouldn't matter what Scotty and Keenser are doing all alone in that outpost - it's the 24th century and love knows no bounds. However, it is silly to have all this automated technology and not have it set up to receive distress calls AUTOMATICALLY. Space is HUGE. What hope do escape pods have sending distress calls if their own people have to actively check for emergency signals regularly? It's like the pods are dialing 999 (or 911 in the USA) but the emergency response staff have gone on coffee break (in this case) for an entire day. Given the level of Federation tech that just doesn't seem like a realistic proposition within this fictional world to me. If the pod had been damaged on impact (a real possibility), Kirk could have frozen to death in a day waiting for help to arrive.
The fact that Scotty did not detect the signal was an unnecessary contrivance to get Kirk to meet a snow monster or two. If Scotty's comms had been overwhelmed by distress calls and data from Vulcan it would have been a realistic excuse to lose Kirk in the shuffle. Instead, he looks incompetent, in my view.
Scotty is not "emergency response staff"! He's holding vigil in an empty outpost and he isn't a comunications officer (and I remind you that this movie is the first time we see the Enterprise's comm centre and the size of it's staff). If anything, the outpost's communications equipment would have relayed a message automatically to someone useful. Or maybe a siren and flashing lights were going off elsewhere in the facility.
And, AGAIN, you're making assumptions about relative distances and comparitive speeds and even where the ships dropped out of warp in-system for your speed/time/distance complaints. The timing may be convenient for dramatic purposes (certainly a film/television staple), but it's certainly not a plot hole.
And, AGAIN, you're making assumptions about relative distances and comparitive speeds and even where the ships dropped out of warp in-system for your speed/time/distance complaints. The timing may be convenient for dramatic purposes (certainly a film/television staple), but it's certainly not a plot hole.
I was using an analogy. Scotty is an officer and quite a senior officer at that. If he's the only officer in the outpost then for that outpost, he IS emergency response staff. It's not as if he was carrying out any urgent work when we see him. He's sitting around snoozing. If Starfleet sent him urgent new orders how impressed do you think they would be if he told them he didn't carry them out because he didn't check his messages that day? We have mobile phones that bleep when messages or texts are received to our 'inboxes'. To suggest that Starfleet comms tech which is linked to intricate computers is less effective than 21st century comms tech gives the lazy writing far too much leeway.
I loved the new comms bay in the movie. It demonstrated that it takes a whole team of people to filter out background spam before a message reaches Uhura's console.
Generally, I'm just saying that if we have to make assumptions at all (in either direction), then these kinds of things are capable of being defined as a plot hole. It's a question of fact and degree and some people have greater tolerance to this sort of thing. Your mileage will vary.
OK, Pauln6. It's a shame that two threads were used up in vain, before we get to these points that actually might have some merit.
To review, and briefly, the current issue is the following.
Scotty is arguably apparently (emphasis on both arguably and apparently) unaware that:
And the conclusion from all of this is that Scotty's switched his space beeper off, right?
Well, Scotty's beeper being off is actually making me smile this morning, because that's pretty funny. I can just hear him shouting "Screw you, Archer!" or words to that effect, and then inverting McCoy's one-liner: "I'm an engineer, not a switch-board operator." I need such a laugh today.
In truth, switching off his beeper to avoid pointless and irritating distractions that would ordinarily be handled by an actual comm officer might allow him to focus on his engineering work better; he obviously doesn't dig being banished. So, to me, not a plot hole, but actually kind of funny.
It would have been better if they actually addressed it in the film. Maybe with something like "I'm an engineer, not a...".
Again, good work, though. Actually, an interesting issue to think about.
To review, and briefly, the current issue is the following.
Scotty is arguably apparently (emphasis on both arguably and apparently) unaware that:
- Vulcan had trouble with their seismic activities;
- a bunch of Federation ships got 'sploded and all blowed up;
- a package consisting of some obscure and insolent cadet has been deposited out in no-man's land that he's expected to go pick up.
And the conclusion from all of this is that Scotty's switched his space beeper off, right?
Well, Scotty's beeper being off is actually making me smile this morning, because that's pretty funny. I can just hear him shouting "Screw you, Archer!" or words to that effect, and then inverting McCoy's one-liner: "I'm an engineer, not a switch-board operator." I need such a laugh today.
In truth, switching off his beeper to avoid pointless and irritating distractions that would ordinarily be handled by an actual comm officer might allow him to focus on his engineering work better; he obviously doesn't dig being banished. So, to me, not a plot hole, but actually kind of funny.
It would have been better if they actually addressed it in the film. Maybe with something like "I'm an engineer, not a...".
Again, good work, though. Actually, an interesting issue to think about.
Precisely! It also ties in to the issue of not very good officers getting promoted because the results they produce look good, regardless of the method used to achieve those results.
Rather deliciously, Starfleet seems to be using similar promotional techniques to those that were used by the bankers, leading to the global financial crisis - short term gains regardless of long term consequences e.g. Kirk with no diplomatic experience starting a war by shagging the Dohlman and refusing to give her up because he's an unsubordinate SOB.
One other issue that I (dis)like in this regard is the way people overlook the fact that Kirk's decision to pursue Nero to try and stop him was a poor tactical decision (not that Spock's decision to rendezvous with the fleet was any better). If Spock had not stopped him and sent him to Delta Vega they would have pursued Nero to Earth with no knowledge of the Jellyfish or red matter and no subspace transportation to board the Narada.
If Kirk had been proposing to race to Earth to bolster her automated defences (with their new codes) and assist in a desperate evacuation, that would have been a more sensible option in my view. Futile perhaps but it would have been for the Admiralty to decide what to do next.
Which brings us to another question. Since the Enterprise is within communications distance of Earth why didn't Spock seek orders from the Admiralty? Another plot hole?
Rather deliciously, Starfleet seems to be using similar promotional techniques to those that were used by the bankers, leading to the global financial crisis - short term gains regardless of long term consequences e.g. Kirk with no diplomatic experience starting a war by shagging the Dohlman and refusing to give her up because he's an unsubordinate SOB.
One other issue that I (dis)like in this regard is the way people overlook the fact that Kirk's decision to pursue Nero to try and stop him was a poor tactical decision (not that Spock's decision to rendezvous with the fleet was any better). If Spock had not stopped him and sent him to Delta Vega they would have pursued Nero to Earth with no knowledge of the Jellyfish or red matter and no subspace transportation to board the Narada.
If Kirk had been proposing to race to Earth to bolster her automated defences (with their new codes) and assist in a desperate evacuation, that would have been a more sensible option in my view. Futile perhaps but it would have been for the Admiralty to decide what to do next.
Which brings us to another question. Since the Enterprise is within communications distance of Earth why didn't Spock seek orders from the Admiralty? Another plot hole?
Well yes, everything would have ended badly, with Earth destroyed too. Getting the mind meld with Spock Prime is the only chance to find out about the jellyfish ship.
I have not bought that anything mentioned prior has been a hole, so this issue certainly can't be "another" plot hole. The question is whether it is the first. I realize that you are not satisfied that the defense codes could not be changed.
(On the issue of the defense codes, the Kelvin appeared to temporarily disable Nero's ship. While his weapons are advanced, perhaps he could still suffer some inconvenient damage from some lucky shots. This would justify wanting to switch off Earth's defense grid even if he doesn't actually need to.)
Perhaps Starfleet did order the Enterprise to join up with the rest of the fleet to mass a counterattack. But on the other hand, maybe everyone was operating under radio silence to avoid interception of transmissions, which would have taken care of all these issues here I think.
All this stuff probably should have been addressed on screen, or that is to say I would have preferred that it was. Still no holes, because there are plausible ways to resolve the issues, but weaknesses at worst.
I think this is where we differ in terms of how we define a 'plot hole'. I define it as a gap in the plot that can only be explained if you pick one of several possible invented explanations that don't appear on screen. Supposition plugs the plot hole.
FYI - I agree with what you say about the Narada. The point I was making was that by delaying for as long as he did, Nero gave away any advantage he could have hoped to gain by obtaining the codes unless Starfleet is incompetent. So why bother waiting if he couldn't get the information straight away?
The worst plot holes cannot be plugged at all but normally they can be plugged somehow (the Nero is insane excuse is the 'wizard did it' excuse that can paper over a lot of cracks; Scotty is incompetent; Starfleet is incompetent etc). I think perhaps that people ascribe the term serious connotations that I don't.
I don't see Scotty as incompetent, we disagree on that; he is rebellious and at this point probably insubordinate. That's different from incompetent.
Your definition of plot hole is not the accepted one. The definition was discussed at length, over the course of many posts, in one of the previous threads. The definition in the stub article at Wikipedia was faulted for being not well written; the one at TV Tropes was regarded as somewhat better. The accepted definition leans more towards the impossible and the implausible. If there is a possible and reasonably plausible explanation for something, even if it does not appear on screen, then it's not a plot hole, by definition.
Your definition of plot hole is not the accepted one. The definition was discussed at length, over the course of many posts, in one of the previous threads. The definition in the stub article at Wikipedia was faulted for being not well written; the one at TV Tropes was regarded as somewhat better. The accepted definition leans more towards the impossible and the implausible. If there is a possible and reasonably plausible explanation for something, even if it does not appear on screen, then it's not a plot hole, by definition.
Yeah, I switched off long before that debate was resolved. Boooooring. My only interest is coming up with plausible explanations for 'plot weaknesses' if you prefer. If the hole is so bad you can't hypothesise then there is absolutely no fun involved.
NB: If Scotty's insubordination leads him to switch off his comms and ignore a distress signal from a potentially injured person in an escape pod for a whole day, I'd say he crossed the line into incompetence.
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1) As DrBashir pointed out, they explicitly state that they have already reached the core.
2) Even if they didn't go all the way to the core, just how far did they get? The Earth's crust accounts for less than 1% of its volume; after few miles down, you reach the lava (technically magma).
You think the torpedoes are gonna be stopped by magma?? Spock shot his red matter torpedo into the supernova which pulped an entire planet! I don't think magma would have been an issue.
And this, my friends, is how babies are made.
Well first of all, the earth's mantle is actually denser than the surface, so if a torpedo won't go through 20 miles of rock, it definitely won't go through thousands of miles of magma.
Second, even if the torpedo somehow could shoot through all that magma, why do they bother drilling all the way to the core?
Lol and this is a good example of no critique at all. It is also an example of how not to answer an open question.
The answer was no, as in no plot hole was opened.
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