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Plot hole city: Part 3!

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So: Not a plot hole.

Please re-read paragraph one of my rather lengthy response above. :p

Since they don't distinguish normal transporting from subspace transporting there are several omissions within the movie itself when viewed against general Trek. It does appear that there may be a 'viable' explanation albeit one that doesn't cover all the plot points fully.
 
Once again none of these are plot holes, just a bunch of nitpicking easily explained.

Once again, please re-read paragraph one of my rather lengthy response above. :p

And you call that explanation easy?

I've just realised one cock-up in my own explanation - Scotty's equipment might be set up but he would need to modify the Enterprise's transporters. I don't know how hard that would be with 23rd century engineering so there is still a plot hole as to how and why they were able to beam onto the Narada (i.e. was it by subspace beaming or did the Narada inexplicably decide to approach the heart of Federation territory with her shields down).
 
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Old Spock, who is an established science wiz gave Scotty the formula to do it and we don't know the Narada's shields are up. Why would they need to be? They are are 24/25th century ship with advanced tech back in time well over 100 years.
 
Old Spock, who is an established science wiz gave Scotty the formula to do it and we don't know the Narada's shields are up. Why would they need to be? They are are 24/25th century ship with advanced tech back in time well over 100 years.

Ok so you didn't actually read my earlier post then... :rolleyes:

Well they would need their shields up to stop the enemy from beaming across a boarding party before they actually activate the drill. I think that 24th century Romulans can still die from 23rd century weapons and the Earth has hundreds of transporters and millions of pesky humans armed with such weapons spoiling for a fight who also have an outpost on Mars and who possess transporters that can send people millions of kilometres in times of crisis.

Now that I think about it, approaching the Sol system with shields down would be just about the dumbest thing Nero could have done (unless he had a cloaking device) as it gives away his only advantage.

I suppose Nero went down in history alongside Grand Moff Tarkin.
 
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So Nero is smart enough to carefully calculate and plan the abduction of Spock, and the assault on the Klingon and Federation armadas, yet is too dense to realize that destroying a Federation ship might alter history? Considering that most of the Enterprise crew are cadets that just happened to scramble onto the ship in a big fat rush, the chances of any of the original crew ending up there is remote. Uhura and Kirk nearly didn't make it on, and Scott was stuck on Delta Vega.

Remember, the original plot was to have Nero rotting in a Klingon prison for 20 years, so obviously he wouldn't have known the change in history. He escapes, immediately finds Spock and maroons him, then goes to Vulcan and destroys some ships that look like they came from the prime universe anyway. Where in that scenario would Nero realize that things have changed?

The massive coincidence that they all ended up together again on the Enterprise, I can chalk up to artistic license (aka artistic convenience), as long as they don't make too big a deal about it. But the fact that Nero can read the minds of the writers to know with such certainty that Spock is aboard, that's just absurd.
When was it said that Nero knew exactly that Spock was aboard? And really, why wouldn't he have thought this? I stated in my last post that this would have been the time that Spock would have been serving on the NCC-1701.

Because when Nero's crewman announces the arrival of "another Federation ship", Nero immediately yells "Destroy it!" or something to that effect (without any orders to examine or identify it), and it's only sheer coincidence that he happens to recognize it right before it's obliterated.
So you've answered your own question. It was coincidence. Coincidences happen.

OK maybe not halfway across the galaxy, but halfway to Earth wouldn't be hyperbolizing. Besides, how could one formula suddenly turn century-old transporter into a super-duper-long-range transporter? You could throw all the formulas in the universe at ENIAC, but you'll never turn it into a modern-day supercomputer. The idea that one formula can account for over a hundred years of technological advancements is silly.
In "Relics," Geordi specifically states that transporter technology really hasn't changed much at all in over a hundred years. Two hundred if we count ENTERPRISE. And you didn't respond to my theory that by 2387, Starfleet may have had tech advances thanks to the war that may have made things like this relatively common.

Most of those films have their authenticity severely diminished by such unlikely events. If the movie doesn't require much authenticity to work, then it's not such a bad thing. But since ST09 is more than a just mindless action movie, the inconsistency hurts it.
You know what's funny? I never noticed Scotty falling flat on his face until you pointed it out. Because I usually never let things like that bother me, because they're really unimportant to the plot. Now if, say, Scotty was beamed into the matter/antimatter intermix chamber and then walked right out as if nothing happened, then that would be having "their authenticity severely diminished by such unlikely events" as you say. But falling down and getting up again? Have you ever watched a football game?

Even if it weren't possible, why doesn't he just beam from the bridge to the transporter room, and immediately beam again from the transporter to the planet? That's still a hell of a lot faster than walking across the ship to get there.
Because as someone else pointed out, the bridge has no transporter room, and as I pointed out, you and I don't know the true capabilities of the transporter in this new universe.

So I'm not allowed to offer a counter-point? I should just accept when you tell me I'm wrong, and not try to defend my poisition at all? Why do you get to point out flaws in my argument, but I'm not allowed to do the same to yours?
I'm just pointing out what you've tended to do in the past. There's nothing wrong with counterpoints; it's the fact that in the last two of these posts, you've tended to adopt an attitude that you're more interested in proving other people wrong than in listening to their opinions and trying to convince yourself that we might, just might, have a point. But I don't know, maybe you've gotten better. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt:)
 
That's ok, I'm repeating myself in a way that adds nothing to the debate with ironic intent. :p
 
Obviously they're ignoring you.:)

But then you went and quoted him.

There's no point getting bogged down in semantics about the dictionary definition of a plot hole again! Let's just have fun speculating.

Request denied. Insisting that workarounds be invented for idiosyncratically defined "issues" in fiction isn't fun; it's tedium.

The title of the thread isn't "Let's Nitpick Trivial Inconsistencies," so let's see some plot holes here. Lay 'em on the table, or...
 
Pauln6 said:
and who possess transporters that can send people millions of kilometres in times of crisis.

How do we know this? Because of Scotty's dialogue on Delta Vega? Do we really see any evidence that Abramsverse transporters are generally reliable at ranges significantly greater than TOS when transwarp beaming is not in effect?

Pauln6 said:
Now that I think about it, approaching the Sol system with shields down would be just about the dumbest thing Nero could have done (unless he had a cloaking device) as it gives away his only advantage.

According to Countdown he did have a cloaking device, which would make sense for a Romulan ship.
 
Remember, the original plot was to have Nero rotting in a Klingon prison for 20 years, so obviously he wouldn't have known the change in history. He escapes, immediately finds Spock and maroons him, then goes to Vulcan and destroys some ships that look like they came from the prime universe anyway. Where in that scenario would Nero realize that things have changed?
Nero demonstrates this knowledge later in the film, during the fight with Kirk, saying something like "you were a great man, but that was another life", clearly demonstrating his understanding that the timeline has been altered, and not everything is the same. Nero also somehow seems to know that Kirk's father was aboard the Kelvin, but I'll save that one for Plot Hole City Part 4 ;)

When was it said that Nero knew exactly that Spock was aboard? And really, why wouldn't he have thought this? I stated in my last post that this would have been the time that Spock would have been serving on the NCC-1701.
There is no indication that he's trying to determine if Spock is aboard. The way he addresses Spock when he hails the Enterprise, he seems to already know Spock is there. As for why he wouldn't have thought was aboard, remember that an entire ship was destroyed 25 years ago, which, at the very least would have caused changes to personnel assignments for the rest of the fleet from that point on.

So you've answered your own question. It was coincidence. Coincidences happen.
Like I said, coincidences can happen, but when characters in the story plan on, expect, and use these coincidences, then the plot starts to lose credibility.

In "Relics," Geordi specifically states that transporter technology really hasn't changed much at all in over a hundred years. Two hundred if we count ENTERPRISE. And you didn't respond to my theory that by 2387, Starfleet may have had tech advances thanks to the war that may have made things like this relatively common.

But since we never saw Federation transporters acquire that kind of upgrade, we're forced to speculate on what they "may have had", in order for the plot device to work. That's flawed storytelling, if you ask me.

Besides, I don't think you addressed the second part of it: How do they locate the Enterprise in order to beam onto it? In TNG's Bloodlines, they can't locate the Ferengi ship because it's outside of sensor range. They end up finding it by back-tracing the sub-space transport the next time the Ferengi use it. Since there's no such transport going on in the Enterprise, how do they find it, seeing as how it went to warp hours ago?

You know what's funny? I never noticed Scotty falling flat on his face until you pointed it out. Because I usually never let things like that bother me, because they're really unimportant to the plot. Now if, say, Scotty was beamed into the matter/antimatter intermix chamber and then walked right out as if nothing happened, then that would be having "their authenticity severely diminished by such unlikely events" as you say. But falling down and getting up again? Have you ever watched a football game?
A football game? Come on, that's not the same thing. Football players fall from shorter distances, onto soft grass, and they're wearing all kinds of protective gear.

Because as someone else pointed out, the bridge has no transporter room, and as I pointed out, you and I don't know the true capabilities of the transporter in this new universe
Why would the bridge need a transporter room? If they can beam a person from down on the planet to the transporter room on the ship, why on earth wouldn't they be able to beam someone from elsewhere on the ship, straight to the transporter room? That seems like a much easier thing to do.

I'm just pointing out what you've tended to do in the past. There's nothing wrong with counterpoints; it's the fact that in the last two of these posts, you've tended to adopt an attitude that you're more interested in proving other people wrong than in listening to their opinions and trying to convince yourself that we might, just might, have a point. But I don't know, maybe you've gotten better. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt:)

I thought I was doing both? It's not like I'm ignoring everything everyone says and just repeating myself; I listen to your arguments, and then respond by pointing out what I think is wrong with them. Isn't that the same thing you're doing to me? I don't have a problem with it, I just don't understand why I'm the bad guy here...
 
Obviously they're ignoring you.:)

But then you went and quoted him.

There's no point getting bogged down in semantics about the dictionary definition of a plot hole again! Let's just have fun speculating.

Request denied. Insisting that workarounds be invented for idiosyncratically defined "issues" in fiction isn't fun; it's tedium.

Lol - it may be tedium for you but it's the purpose of the thread. I suppose I don't understand why anybody would take the time to read a thread that they find tedious and then take up even more of their valuable time to tell people, repeatedly, that the thread is irrelevant. And then do it again on the second and third thread... Might you find it less tedious to join in on a thread that you actually find interesting? :p Whether they are plot holes are not they can still form the basis of speculation and discussion. If you have nothing to add, move along!
 
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Pauln6 said:
and who possess transporters that can send people millions of kilometres in times of crisis.

How do we know this? Because of Scotty's dialogue on Delta Vega? Do we really see any evidence that Abramsverse transporters are generally reliable at ranges significantly greater than TOS when transwarp beaming is not in effect?

Pauln6 said:
Now that I think about it, approaching the Sol system with shields down would be just about the dumbest thing Nero could have done (unless he had a cloaking device) as it gives away his only advantage.

According to Countdown he did have a cloaking device, which would make sense for a Romulan ship.

People do seem to confuse transwarp beaming with long distance beaming. I thought Scotty was initially talking about beaming from planet to planet, which would not require transwarp beaming.

The issue of tracking the ship is problematic. As stated earlier the TNG Enterprise could only backtrace to the Ferengi ship through its subspace signature. Even if Scotty can detect the location of the Enterprise, his sensors would still not be able to pinpoint a safe location. At best they could guestimate a location a certain distance from the location of the transponder and with all the other variables (ship speed, direction, wandering crewmen etc) it was an astonishingly dumb thing to try.

I agree that a cloaking device would make sense for a Romulan ship, which is why it was so curious that they did not show one in the movie. If they had stayed cloaked right up until the point that they activated the drill, it would have prevented anybody else from beaming on board. This could have been used to explain why they only had a very brief window to beam onto the vessel but that would have got in the way of the transporter snog fest. It would have been embarassing if they missed their window because Spock was snogging while on duty.
 
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