Pike and "Fleet Captain"?

[JonnyQuest037]

Other characters who may have become captains at young ages inclue, Garth of Izar, Pike, Kirk, and Picard.

Do we strictly know that Garth made Captain at an early age, though? Are you just basing that on Steve Ihnat's age?

 

[MAGolding]

QUOTE="Nerys Myk, post: 13334408, member: 980"]Scotty and Uhura were very proud.[/QUOTE]

<Does the math based on everyone's apparent ages> EEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW.

To quote "Menagerie":

NUMBER ONE: Well, shall we do some time computation?

Yay! I just love an invitation for some time computation! In fact I was writing a long post with a discussion of very old fathers and mothers, but I lost it.

So here is a shorter discussion.

If Tryla scott was the age in 2364 that her actor was, 40, she would have been born in 2324.

In the TNG episode "Relics" in the 6th season the USS Jenolan is found near a Dyson Sphere:

DATA: Captain, I have identified the signal. It is from the USS Jenolen, a Federation transport ship reported missing in this sector seventy five years ago.

LAFORGE: There's a pattern in the buffer still.
RIKER: It's completely intact. There's less than point zero zero three percent signal degradation. How is that possible?
LAFORGE: I don't know. I've never seen a transporter jury-rigged like this.
RIKER: Could someone survive inside a transporter buffer for seventy five years?
LAFORGE: I know a way to find out.

And they materialize from the transporter pattern buffer none other than:

SCOTT: The Enterprise? I should have known. I bet Jim Kirk himself hauled the old girl out of mothballs to come looking for me. Captain Montgomery Scott. Tell me, how long have I been missing?

So Montgomery Scott was trapped in a transporter buffer for 75 years from about 2294 to 2369. So without some science fictional form of medically assisted reproduction it would be chronologically impossible for him to be the father of Tryla Scott.

Or maybe Tryla Scott used futuristic medical care to look decades younger than she actually was, or maybe she spent decades in suspended animation or some sort of time warp and was decades younger than the number of s years since she was born.

Fans who want a family relationship without science fictional elements can assume that Tryla Scott's father was the son of Montgomery Scott and Uhura., If Tryla Scott was born in 2324, her father would be born in 2294 or earlier and would be thirty years or more older than her, and Montgomery Scott would be about 70 or fewer years older than his son - which Star trek fans quite conveniently know is quite possible.

Do we strictly know that Garth made Captain at an early age, though? Are you just basing that on Steve Ihnat's age?

No, we don't know. But:

CORY: Garth. Garth of Izar, a former Starship fleet Captain.
(He calls up a picture on a monitor)
KIRK: When I was a cadet at the Academy, his exploits were required reading. He was one of my heroes. I'd like to see him.

Kirk was a plebe at the Academy 15 years before "Shore Leave", and if he was there for four years that should have been from about 17 to 13 years before "Whom Gods destroy" .
But about a year before "Whom Gods Destroy", in "A Private Little War", Kirk said he had been a lieutenant 13 years earlier, and so I would guess Kirk left the academy 14 or more years before "Whom Gods Destroy". So Garth was already very famous at least 14 years before "Whom Gods destroy".

KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.
GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings!
KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.

So Garth's victory at Axanar was a really great and famous and important victory, implying that Garth was probably a rather high ranking Starfleet officer when he won it.

If Kirk probably graduated from the academy was commissioned an ensign at least 14 years before "Whom Gods Destroy", Kirk's visit to Axanar on a peace mission as a cadet should have been at least 14 years before "Whom Gods destroy" and after Garth's victory at Axanar.

KIRK: No, sir. Captain Garth, Starship fleet Captain. That's an honourable title.
GARTH: And I was the greatest of them all, wasn't I?
KIRK: Yes, you were. Yes. But you're a sick man now, sir.
GARTH: I have never been more healthy.
KIRK: No. No, think. Think back to what you were before the accident that sent you to Antos Four. Try.
GARTH: I can't remember. It's almost as if I had died and was reborn.
KIRK: No, I, I can remember. You were the finest student at the Academy, the finest Starship Captain. You were the prototype, the model for the rest of us.
GARTH: Yes, I do remember that. It was a great responsibility, but one I was proud to bear.
KIRK: And you bore it well. And the disease that changed you, it's not your fault. And the terrible things you did since then, not truly responsible.

So Garth was a starship captain in position and/or rank, and was so probably before Kirk entered Starfleet Academy.

"The Counter-Clock Incident" says:

Captain's log, stardate 6770.3. The Enterprise is on course for the planet Babel, where ambassadors from all Federation planets are waiting to honour the Enterprise's distinguished passenger, Commodore Robert April, first captain of the USS Enterprise, and for the past twenty years, Federation Ambassador at large. Now seventy five years old, Commodore April has reached mandatory retirement age.

If the mandatory retirement of 75 is canonical, then Garth should be under 75 in "Whom Gods destroy" and thus under 61 at the latest possible date for Kirk's visit to Axanar, presumably after Garth's great victory there, when Garth should have been at least a captain in rank.

So there is only about 30 years of leeway with Garth's birth date between him being a starship captain at an old age and being so young a captain as to rival Kirk's unspecified age of becoming a captain.

And it is possible to deduce that possibly the leaders responsible for the Axanar peace mission founded the federation, or put it back together after it was divided in a civil war. If they did so before Kirk and Spock were born, and if Garth's victory at Axanar and the reuniting of the Federation was before Kirk and Spock were born, Garth would seem to have been a rather young captain.

So combined with Steve Ihnat 's age I do suspect that there is a fairly strong possibility that Garth was a young captain and a rival to Kirk's age at becoming a captain.

 

[MAGolding]

Duplicate post.

 

[Timo]

But it's all tied together. What is the rate of the vessel if not a function of the size? In the old RN system, they counted guns, post ships starting at 20. But the ship's complement was directly tied to the number needed to crew those guns, and in turn the number of supervisory positions [..] A larger organization, of course, requires a more experienced manager, or in a military context, a higher ranking officer.

The very same could work for starships - with the rate of the vessel being a function of capacity, which is not directly tied to size any longer.

Say, you want a dispatch cruiser for a tour of the peaceful Rigel system? Push the button that allocates power to drive systems, and away from guns and sensors and shields, and send your gunners and tactical officers on well-deserved leave. You now also have the option of assigning a less experienced CO for this milk run.

You want a heavy cruiser again? You press the other button, and the guns go hot again - but you also need more crew. And the CO doesn't change skill sets at the push of a button yet, so you swap him or her physically.

All within the same starship shell, which can also convert into an explorer (but you need to embark researchers and their support staff plus sensor specialists and whatnot), or a hospital ship or whatever you wish, as long as you have the right crew available.

But why? What would the function of the real captains be? If a lieutenant commander or commander had the requisite experience to command the vessel, wouldn't that just be the normal grade for that position, as in a navy today and historically? No temporary promotion required.

Also, we somehow have to acknowledge that Starfleet dishes out promotions the way today's militaries award medals. The promotion is not immediately reflected in the assignment or the responsibilities - one just gets shinies on one's collar rather than one's chest. Officers with the ability to command a specific sort of ship or mission may come in a range of ranks, then.

What did Picard mean by making Captain "faster than anyone in Starfleet history"?

Good question - although it's good to also note that neither Kirk nor Picard was ever given onscreen credit for being particularly fast or young, in the prime timeline anyway. (The alternate Kirk went through Starfleet Academy really fast but was never stated to have broken records. He then got Captain rank and status essentially overnight, but again we failed to hear it explicated that nobody else had managed that before... Although it's a rather safe assumption that this was indeed record-breaking!)

Other characters who may have become captains at young ages include, Garth of Izar, Pike, Kirk, and Picard.

But as you say, none of them is an explicit case, and indeed Garth is probably our best guess while Picard is right out. It would be out of character for him to smugly self-promote in "Conspiracy"; he's much more likely to be commenting on Walker Keel having held the previous record on fast-tracking. And the whole backstage backstory of Picard spending decades aboard the Stargazer is unvoiced - onscreen, she's merely his first command, no duration of service suggested, no extensive history implied. All his known Stargazer adventures take place within a year or two of the ship's loss.

The Making of Star Trek says that Kirk: "..was the youngest academy graduate to be appointed a starship command captain". And of course that only means the youngest up to the era of TOS.

And even if this funny wording were explicit on screen, it would leave open all sorts of possibilities. Perhaps people coming from outside the Academy (say, transferring from the Vulcan Science Academy) would have gotten their Starship commands at a younger age, say.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

What did Picard mean by making Captain "faster than anyone in Starfleet history"?

If Picard meant fastest since birth Tryla Scott would be the youngest captain in Starfleet History/ If Picard meant the fasts since joining starfleet Tryla Scott could have joined Starfleet comparatively old and been promoted very fast and so have become a very young captain but not the youngest ever.

Ursaline Byrant was born 4 November 1947 and was forty years old when "Conspiracy" was produced in early 1988. If Tryla s Scott was as old as Byrant she could have been 40 years old, and recently promoted to captain. Or she might have been much younger when promoted some unspecified number of years earlier. Thus it is possible she became captain when older than Kirk or Picard and Picard meant that Scott became captain soonest after entering Starfleet.

Other characters who may have become captains at young ages include, Garth of Izar, Pike, Kirk, and Picard.

The Making of Star Trek says that Kirk: "..was the youngest academy graduate to be appointed a starship command captain". And of course that only means the youngest up to the era of TOS.

True. There is a distinction between "youngest" and "fastest." Perhaps Trayla Scott had previously served in the Merchant Service, joined Starfleet at (just to pick a number at random) 33, and made Captain by age 40 because her experiences were somehow transferable.

I understood that Tryla Scott was made captain "faster" or whatever, so as to intentionally NOT make sense for reasons of drama in the story.

I thought the point of this being said in "Conspiracy" is that Starfleet is moving people around a quickly promoting due to either conspiracy parasites or people who are trying to stop the conspiracy parasites. That is, even though little is said onscreen about the record for youngest Captain (an more is made of it in off screen materials), Kirk's or Picard's record is broken almost without reason. Given that they were once planned to be the first tendrils of the Borg, it adds drama that this could happen to Starfleet.

I thought that something similar is said of Captain Benteen in DS9, but a recent re-watch on BBC America did not have those lines I thought I remembered.

 

[Timo]

Not sure I can agree. If the promotion of Scott were suspect somehow, surely she would not be invited into this top-secret circle of trusted resistance fighters? (And if she were, for conspiratorial reasons, the good guys would not tip their hand by blatantly bringing up this suspicious fact).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

Seems pretty straight forward. She achieved the rank in less time than anyone previously.

 

[Henoch]

Bigger organizations give more opportunity for promotion (and I add, lowers the quality of promotions).

 

[Timo]

Seems pretty straight forward. She achieved the rank in less time than anyone previously.

Or the position. She does have a ship of her own, in addition to having the four pips; either might count as the "captain" being discussed there. But since we know there's no set age for enrolling at the Academy, the question "at a younger age than anybody, or within fewer months?" may still be relevant. At least Academically...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Not sure I can agree. If the promotion of Scott were suspect somehow, surely she would not be invited into this top-secret circle of trusted resistance fighters? (And if she were, for conspiratorial reasons, the good guys would not tip their hand by blatantly bringing up this suspicious fact).

Timo Saloniemi

I see your point, if she were taken over by the parasites. I was under the impression that those still "loyal" to the fleet had also been moving things around hoping to protect it. For example, Admiral Quinn was probably not yet assimilated--if I dare use the term, lol--when he asked Picard to become the Commandant of Starfleet Academy some episodes before. Perhaps Quinn had her promoted because he knew she was loyal, and then was taken over himself?

Ultimately it's pretty amazing that, all these years later, its still unclear who was on what side during some of Picard's meetings in the episode. This episode may be a bit underrated in that regard, if it does have issues in other ways.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I understood that Tryla Scott was made captain "faster" or whatever, so as to intentionally NOT make sense for reasons of drama in the story.

I thought the point of this being said in "Conspiracy" is that Starfleet is moving people around a quickly promoting due to either conspiracy parasites or people who are trying to stop the conspiracy parasites. That is, even though little is said onscreen about the record for youngest Captain (an more is made of it in off screen materials), Kirk's or Picard's record is broken almost without reason. Given that they were once planned to be the first tendrils of the Borg, it adds drama that this could happen to Starfleet.

Hmm. That's not an idea that's ever occurred to me before, but I agree with Timo that there is no way she would've been invited to that meeting among the Captains unless they knew they could trust her implicitly.

Ultimately it's pretty amazing that, all these years later, its still unclear who was on what side during some of Picard's meetings in the episode. This episode may be a bit underrated in that regard, if it does have issues in other ways.

I'd always assumed that Scott and Picard's old friend (Walter Keel, IIRC?) were taken over sometime after the meeting we saw. If anyone there was already compromised, the parasites would've taken over everyone there.

But you kind of have to grade "Conspiracy" on a curve, as it spends much of its runtime setting up a subplot that TNG never returned to. (The insectoid race that they were originally planning on introducing eventually evolved into the Borg when the staff was batting ideas around.)

 

[Timo]

During the meeting in the mine, I doubt Keel, Rixx and Scott even knew there were parasites involved; they'd be n their toes, but not sufficiently wary of the right things. Keel died; Scott didn't, and was taken over; Picard didn't, but wasn't taken over. So deducing the plan of the critters is not trivial, and perhaps they, too, were not wary of the right things - such as hero characters?

"Conspiracy" is our first example of captains being Captains regardless of ship type, really. That is, it's the first one to explicate ship types in dialogue, making a point of giving four pips to Frigate Captains and Heavy Cruiser Captains alike. An interesting and quickly forgotten practice there: it would be ages before anything but "Cruiser of Some Sort" would be mentioned again, or two ships compared (no mention of the difference between the Hathaway and the Enterprise, say, even though the former is explicated as Cruiser of Some Sort). But at least "Icarus Factor" makes a halfhearted effort of describing the Aries as a job with specific parameters, suggesting that not every captaincy is equal.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Bringing up the Axanar question, I've always thought that Axanar was a possible rebellious planet and caused the Federation a lot of trouble before they were forced to deal with said planet rather than a military conflict with the Klingon empire or a dispute over their space! for as we know the Federation and the Klingons never went to a full scale war outside of a few scrapes and battles for Sherman's planet and Donatu V!
JB

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It's a shame that the name "Axanar" is so toxic now because of Peters' nonsense. I can't see Star Trek ever even mentioning it again, let alone expanding on the history involved.

 

[Timo]

Donatu V gets more attention than it perhaps should, too. At first, it's just something that Chekov considers worth naming in "Tribbles" because it was "fought near here"; a dozen significant battles were in all likelihood fought elsewhere around the same time, and more at other times. But suddenly it's also something T'Kumva considers worth bringing up in his propaganda, even though it took place a full decade prior. So now it's both proximal to Sherman's and the last one in a supposed long row until the mid-2250s.

Whether Axanar is in any way related to the Klingons is a different matter. FASA said it was, which might already be reason enough for Paramount to do the opposite.

Timeline-wise, which came first, the battle or the peace mission? Kirk spent a lot of time at the Academy, up to Lieutenant rank, while the peace mission was when he was "new fledged". Perhaps the UFP first waged peace there, and then Garth fought a battle that made headlines and immediately became a bestseller at the Academy, too. And the battle, while glorious, failed to further Garth's goals and instead furthered those of the peacemongers he so hated. I mean, if Garth hated peace, then probably plenty of other folks might, and the peace mission might be what triggered the battle.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

T'Kumva? Never heard of him and that ain't a Klingon name in this reality I'm afraid!
JB

 

[MAGolding]

Donatu V gets more attention than it perhaps should, too. At first, it's just something that Chekov considers worth naming in "Tribbles" because it was "fought near here"; a dozen significant battles were in all likelihood fought elsewhere around the same time, and more at other times. But suddenly it's also something T'Kumva considers worth bringing up in his propaganda, even though it took place a full decade prior. So now it's both proximal to Sherman's and the last one in a supposed long row until the mid-2250s.

Whether Axanar is in any way related to the Klingons is a different matter. FASA said it was, which might already be reason enough for Paramount to do the opposite.

Timeline-wise, which came first, the battle or the peace mission? Kirk spent a lot of time at the Academy, up to Lieutenant rank, while the peace mission was when he was "new fledged". Perhaps the UFP first waged peace there, and then Garth fought a battle that made headlines and immediately became a bestseller at the Academy, too. And the battle, while glorious, failed to further Garth's goals and instead furthered those of the peacemongers he so hated. I mean, if Garth hated peace, then probably plenty of other folks might, and the peace mission might be what triggered the battle.

Timo Saloniemi

In "Court Martial":

COMPUTER: Recording inquiry. Matter. Captain Kirk, James T. Subject. Circumstances of death, Lieutenant Commander Finney, Benjamin.
STONE: This inquiry, to determine whether a general court-martial should be convened against Captain Kirk on charges of perjury and culpable negligence.
KIRK: Ready.
STONE: Let us begin with your relationship with Commander Finney. You knew him for a long time, didn't you?
KIRK: Yes. He was an instructor at the Academy when I was a midshipman, but that didn't stand in the way of our beginning a close friendship. His daughter Jamie, who was here last night, was named after me.
STONE: It's common knowledge that something happened to your friendship.
KIRK: It's no secret. We were assigned to the same ship some years later. I relieved him on watch once and found a circuit open to the atomic matter piles that should've been closed. Another five minutes, it could have blown up the ship.
COMPUTER: Ship nomenclature. Specify.
KIRK: United Starship Republic, number 1371.
STONE: Continue.
KIRK: I closed the switch and logged the incident. He drew a reprimand and was sent to the bottom of the promotion list.

And:

SHAW: I now call the personnel officer for the Enterprise.
COMPUTER: Service rank, Ensign. Position, personnel officer. Current assignment, USS Enterprise.
SHAW: In the course of your duties as personnel officer of the Enterprise, you would be familiar with the service records of all aboard?
ENSIGN: (A young Asian woman) Yes, ma'am.
SHAW: With reference to Records Officer Finney, was there in his service record a reported disciplinary action for failure to close a circuit?
ENSIGN: Yes, ma'am.
SHAW: Was the charge in that instance based upon a log entry by the officer who relieved him?
ENSIGN: Yes, ma'am.
SHAW: And who was that officer?
ENSIGN: Ensign James T. Kirk.
SHAW: Louder, please, for the court.
ENSIGN: Ensign James T. Kirk.
SHAW: Now the Captain Kirk who sits in this courtroom?

And:

SHAW: You have just heard the testimony of your own personnel officer, that it was an action of the then Ensign Kirk, which placed an unerasable blot on the record of the then Lieutenant Finney. Psychologically, Doctor, is it possible that Lieutenant Finney blamed Kirk for the incident?

So the incident on the Republic was some years after Kirk entered the Academy and met Ben Finney. At that time Kirk's rank was ensign, and so Kirk had probably already graduated from the Academy and been commissioned an ensign. Being an ensign while still in the Academy would have been very unusual.

In the second season episode "A Private Little War":

SPOCK: Aside from that, you say it's a Garden of Eden?
KIRK: Or so it seemed to the brash young Lieutenant Kirk on his first planet survey.

KIRK: When I left there thirteen years ago, those villagers had barely learned to forge iron. Spock was shot with a flintlock. How many centuries between those two developments?

So Kirk was already promoted from ensign to lieutenant when he surveyed that planet 13 years before A Private Little War":

In the second season episode "Obsession":

KIRK: I suggest you look at the record tapes of past similar occurrences. You'll find the USS Farragut lists casualties eleven years ago from exactly the same impossible causes.

MCCOY: Am I? I was speaking of Lieutenant James T. Kirk of the starship Farragut. Eleven years ago, you were the young officer at the phaser station when something attacked. According to the tapes, this young Lieutenant Kirk insisted upon blaming himself.
KIRK: Because I delayed in firing at it.
MCCOY: You had a normal emotion. You were startled. You delayed firing for a grand total of perhaps two seconds.
KIRK: If I hadn't delayed, it would have been killed.
MCCOY: The ship's exec didn't seem to think so. His log entry was quite clear on the subject. Lieutenant Kirk is a fine young officer who performed with uncommon bravery.
KIRK: Don't you understand? It killed two hundred crewmen.
MCCOY: Captain Garrovick was very important to you, wasn't he, Jim?
KIRK: Yes. He was my commanding officer from the day I left the Academy. One of the finest men I ever knew. I could have killed that thing if I'd fired soon enough the first time.

Kirk was a lieutenant on the Farragut 11 years before "Obsession". Kirk served under Captain Garrovik since Kirk left the Academy, and thus both as an ensign on the Republic and as a lieutenant on the Farragut.

in my reconstruction of Kirk's career, Kirk went to serve as an instructor at Starfleet Academy after the Farragut incident, and Gary Mitchell later entered Starfleet Academy as mentioned in "Where No Man Has Gone Before":

DEHNER: I don't think so. I understand you least of all. Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service, that you asked for him aboard your first command.

MITCHELL: Well, I'm getting a chance to read some of that longhair stuff you like. Hey man, I remember you back at the Academy. A stack of books with legs. The first thing I ever heard from an upperclassman was, watch out for Lieutenant Kirk. In his class, you either think or sink.

I believe that Kirk and Mitchell becoming friends when Mitchell entered the Academy happened years after they first met and were casual acquaintances as mentioned:

Star date 1313.1. We're now approaching Delta Vega. Course set for a standard orbit. This planet, completely uninhabited, is slightly smaller than Earth. Desolate, but rich in crystal and minerals. Kelso's task, transport down with a repair party, try to regenerate the main engines, save the ship. Our task, transport down a man I've known for fifteen years, and if we're successful, maroon him there.

So I imagine that Kirk and Mitchell first met before Kirk or Mitchell entered Starfleet Academy, possibly because they both had family members in Starflleet.

You wrote:

...

Kirk spent a lot of time at the Academy, up to Lieutenant rank, while the peace mission was when he was "new fledged". ....
Timo Saloniemi

In "Whom Gods destroy":

KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy.
GARTH: As well it should be.
KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission.

So Kirk studied Garth's victory at Axanar when Kirk was a cadet at the Academy. And Kirk went to Axanar on a peace mission as a cadet, NOT a lieutenant, if the transcription is correct. I suppose it is possible that the transcription says "cadet" when Kirk actually said a different rank, and the episode itself should be checked to be certain.. If Kirk was at the Academy as a midshipman/cadet for about four years, the time when Kirk studied Garth's victory at Axanar and the time when Kirk wen to Axanar on a peace mission should have been no more than four years apart.

And I can't help thinking that a battle is not likely to become a topic for study at a service Academy for some time after it happens, so that it is very probable that Garth's victory at Axanar happened before Kirk went to Axanar on a peace mission.

In "Court Martial" Captain Kirk's service record includes:

OMPUTER: James T. Kirk, serial number SC937-0176CEC. Service rank, Captain. Position, Starship command. Current assignment, USS Enterprise. Commendations, Palm Leaf Of Axanar Peace Mission, Grankite Order of Tactics, Class of Excellence, Prantares Ribbon of Commendation, Classes first and second

It doesn't specify how many Axanar Peace Missions there were, so there could have been one before Garth's battle at Axanar.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Donatu V gets more attention than it perhaps should, too. At first, it's just something that Chekov considers worth naming in "Tribbles" because it was "fought near here"; a dozen significant battles were in all likelihood fought elsewhere around the same time, and more at other times.

Small correction: It was Spock who brought up Donatu V, not Chekov:

KIRK: Mister Spock, immediate past history of the quadrant?
SPOCK: Under dispute between the two parties since initial contact. The battle of Donatu Five was fought near here twenty three solar years ago. Inconclusive.

But yeah, it doesn't sound like it amounted to much or that it was a particularly significant battle.

But suddenly it's also something T'Kumva considers worth bringing up in his propaganda, even though it took place a full decade prior.

I think that's more just the Discovery writers covering their butts with a quick mention so that they didn't have fans coming after them with "B-But they forgot about the Battle of Donatu V!"

T'Kumva? Never heard of him and that ain't a Klingon name in this reality I'm afraid!

Great news, johnnybear! Discovery just stopped existing because you refused to ever acknowledge it! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

 

[Timo]

Small correction: It was Spock who brought up Donatu V, not Chekov

Yup. Sounded like the sort of trivia bit that the eager Ensign would add, getting a disapproving eyebrow from his mentor in return, but no.

I think that's more just the Discovery writers covering their butts with a quick mention so that they didn't have fans coming after them with "B-But they forgot about the Battle of Donatu V!"

The perfect opportunity for the "two out of three" trope here, only in reverse: introduce two all-new fictional battles, and then name-drop Donatu V as the anchorpoint...

So the incident on the Republic was some years after Kirk entered the Academy and met Ben Finney. At that time Kirk's rank was ensign, and so Kirk had probably already graduated from the Academy and been commissioned an ensign. Being an ensign while still in the Academy would have been very unusual.

Yup. But as Kirk was still in the Academy while holding the rank of Lieutenant, we shouldn't be too strict about that. Graduation doesn't mean leaving, necessarily.

So Kirk was already promoted from ensign to lieutenant when he surveyed that planet 13 years before A Private Little War"

...And for all we know was still in the Academy, working as instructor and participating in training cruises.

Kirk was a lieutenant on the Farragut 11 years before "Obsession". Kirk served under Captain Garrovik since Kirk left the Academy, and thus both as an ensign on the Republic and as a lieutenant on the Farragut.

Or then only as a Lieutenant on the Farragut. After all, he didn't "leave the Academy" at Ensign rank yet; he merely graduated. But yeah, the reverse order of events is also possible.

Doesn't change the timetable of Kirk being a new fledged cadet, so we have the Peace Mission more or less down pat. The moving bit is Garth's famous battle.

So I imagine that Kirk and Mitchell first met before Kirk or Mitchell entered Starfleet Academy, possibly because they both had family members in Starflleet.

Or then they were childhood friends, because both came from Starfleet families. Kirk first meeting Mitchell while instructor or classmate is never established; all we get is a classmate (?) warning Gary that Jim is a tough nut, possibly a redundant piece of information for him. Heck, for all we know, this classmate was dead wrong, which is why Gary brought it up: shining in Kirk's class always was trivially easy for Gary, who could divine answers to tough questions as if by telepathy!

If Kirk was at the Academy as a midshipman/cadet for about four years, the time when Kirk studied Garth's victory at Axanar and the time when Kirk wen to Axanar on a peace mission should have been no more than four years apart.

...Although we now know the Academy is not a four-year ordeal for everybody exactly. But if anything, Kirk did it faster than average, even in this timeline.

And I can't help thinking that a battle is not likely to become a topic for study at a service Academy for some time after it happens

I gather confidentiality issues might affect this - but wouldn't the battles of the Iraq campaign have been studied immediately afterwards in the US military, say?

Also, if the Klingons had kept a low profile for a century, and Romulans were a no-show, and we curiously enough hear of no other enemy at the time, it might the be Academy would have a shortage of famous battles to be studied...

It doesn't specify how many Axanar Peace Missions there were, so there could have been one before Garth's battle at Axanar.

Yup. OTOH, Kirk could have been one of those who fought at Axanar, too, which is the reason Garth knows Kirk used to be an excellent military leader. Perhaps one of Kirk's decorations came from that fight?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The perfect opportunity for the "two out of three" trope here, only in reverse: introduce two all-new fictional battles, and then name-drop Donatu V as the anchorpoint...

That would be funny. I have a feeling that what the DSC writers really wanted was for "The Vulcan Hello" to be Starfleet's first encounter with the Klingons in a hundred years (or close to it), but when they opened up their copies of the ST Chronology and found that Donatu V entry staring them in the face, so they threw in that line to cover the discrepancy.