How many more times!!!
Discovery isn't the original timeline!
It even contradicts ENT which also is a reiterated reality! 
JB
Pike and "Fleet Captain"?
- Thread starter BillJ
- Start date
How many more times!!!
Discovery isn't the original timeline!
It even contradicts ENT which also is a reiterated reality! JB
No. Timo has been bending continuity in knots for decades and pitching his ideas so fervently they seem substantiated.
That said, I'm convinced Spock is a clone of his father, so we're all entitled to play the game
ENT says that Vulcans and Humans cannot produce a natural offspring; it can only be attained with gene splicing. Perhaps Sarek also added some augmentation to the mix to make him super smart, too. So, I guess I'm saying that Spock is a Vulcan augment.That said, I'm convinced Spock is a clone of his father, so we're all entitled to play the game
How many more times!!!
Discovery isn't the original timeline!
JB
I only hit the like button for this quote because there is not a "really, really, really like" button.
ENT says that Vulcans and Humans cannot produce a natural offspring; it can only be attained with gene splicing. Perhaps Sarek also added some augmentation to the mix to make him super smart, too. So, I guess I'm saying that Spock is a Vulcan augment.
I'm convinced that some ideas in that show from 2001-2005 were introduced in order to be intentionally proved false later had the show gone on. This has got to be one of those examples. There was a half-Vulcan on the show at the very beginning, so claiming it was impossible without help was clearly wrong. That, or else those writers were 15 years ahead of the trend of damaging a franchise's characters, feel and story in hopes of looking legit to an adult audience
No. Timo has been bending continuity in knots for decades and pitching his ideas so fervently they seem substantiated.
That said, I'm convinced Spock is a clone of his father, so we're all entitled to play the game
Anything that contradicts TOS is itself a contradiction so not worth our time contemplating!
ENT says that Vulcans and Humans cannot produce a natural offspring; it can only be attained with gene splicing. Perhaps Sarek also added some augmentation to the mix to make him super smart, too. So, I guess I'm saying that Spock is a Vulcan augment.
Let us not forget The Chase in TNG which stated that Humans, Vulcans, Romulans and Klingons were probably descended from an earlier race or whatever so no reason why Spock had to be an Augment!
JB
IMO, the meaning of "Fleet Captain" may have changed periodically through the various eras:
ENT: Not used as far as we know, possibly due to the small size of the UE Starfleet. However, it could be the rank given to senior Vulcan Captains (who explicitly rank above Vulcan Commanders, who rank with Starfleet Captains) after the founding of the Federation.
TOS: Appears to be used for a desk position of some sort, possibly the "chief of staff" and/or "personal troubleshooter" of an admiral. Likely broadly equivalent to Commodore in protocol.
TNG: Never explicitly used, but given that Lieutenant Commanders are often or even invariably (ie Chakotay) refered to as Commander (possibly relating to billet or seniority), then IMO it is reasonable to assume that Fleet Captain exists at least as a "troubleshooter" rank given to senior captains with the authority to command fleets in the absence of a flag officer (cf the old commodore second class) and that Jean Luc Picard for instance, who has been commanding starships since some of his nominal peers were in diapers, held this rank from TNG to NEM.
As far as the Colonel/Cornell debate, I think it's difficult to determine anything given the slipshod nature of the costuming in the last two TOS movies. However, I think it is reasonable to assume that West is a senior officer/commanding officer of one of the Starfleet equivalent of NAVSOC, MARSOC or (far less likely IMO) the USMC and that if he is a "colonel" it's mostly a positional title due to his assignment (possibly paralleling the Fleet Captain position above) rather than a substantive rank (if he'd lived to retirement he'd be VADM/Captain West (ret'd) not Colonel West (ret'd) for instance).
ENT: Not used as far as we know, possibly due to the small size of the UE Starfleet. However, it could be the rank given to senior Vulcan Captains (who explicitly rank above Vulcan Commanders, who rank with Starfleet Captains) after the founding of the Federation.
TOS: Appears to be used for a desk position of some sort, possibly the "chief of staff" and/or "personal troubleshooter" of an admiral. Likely broadly equivalent to Commodore in protocol.
TNG: Never explicitly used, but given that Lieutenant Commanders are often or even invariably (ie Chakotay) refered to as Commander (possibly relating to billet or seniority), then IMO it is reasonable to assume that Fleet Captain exists at least as a "troubleshooter" rank given to senior captains with the authority to command fleets in the absence of a flag officer (cf the old commodore second class) and that Jean Luc Picard for instance, who has been commanding starships since some of his nominal peers were in diapers, held this rank from TNG to NEM.
As far as the Colonel/Cornell debate, I think it's difficult to determine anything given the slipshod nature of the costuming in the last two TOS movies. However, I think it is reasonable to assume that West is a senior officer/commanding officer of one of the Starfleet equivalent of NAVSOC, MARSOC or (far less likely IMO) the USMC and that if he is a "colonel" it's mostly a positional title due to his assignment (possibly paralleling the Fleet Captain position above) rather than a substantive rank (if he'd lived to retirement he'd be VADM/Captain West (ret'd) not Colonel West (ret'd) for instance).
Calling it a "debate" is being kind. "One person's fan theory" would be more accurate.
Yup. It's solidly in the "never will be contradicted but not a snowball's chance in Hobus of it being confirmed, either" category of theories, aka headcanon.
But disbelieving in rank markers is a fine art. Sure, Bob Fletcher's initial ideas weren't adhered to in the TOS movies - the second one already subverted them for the immediate needs of the story. But there aren't major contradictions either, basically because it was all so vague to begin with. None of the rank pins really represent true contradictions - until we get to Lieutenant Valeris and Colonel West.
Personally, I feel more strongly about the former. Valeris isn't the only character identified by her rank, but she gets nineteen counts of that while the other characters get one or at best two. Why not pay more attention to her rank pin, then? And the idea that some obscure Starfleet technicality would make "Lieutenant" the correct form of address on this specific occasion is bull, too, because Kirk considers her a Lieutenant by looks alone, before knowing anything extra about her.
Colonel West doesn't even exist in all versions of the continuity. Fleet Captain Pike was in one episode, getting two mentions of his rank. Other folks wearing odd rank markers get to make amends, the wrong pins possibly being a character error made while dressing in the morning, that one fateful day. Valeris consistently flaunts a contradiction, despite getting close attention and even looking at a mirror surface every now and then.
Timo Saloniemi
But disbelieving in rank markers is a fine art. Sure, Bob Fletcher's initial ideas weren't adhered to in the TOS movies - the second one already subverted them for the immediate needs of the story. But there aren't major contradictions either, basically because it was all so vague to begin with. None of the rank pins really represent true contradictions - until we get to Lieutenant Valeris and Colonel West.
Personally, I feel more strongly about the former. Valeris isn't the only character identified by her rank, but she gets nineteen counts of that while the other characters get one or at best two. Why not pay more attention to her rank pin, then? And the idea that some obscure Starfleet technicality would make "Lieutenant" the correct form of address on this specific occasion is bull, too, because Kirk considers her a Lieutenant by looks alone, before knowing anything extra about her.
Colonel West doesn't even exist in all versions of the continuity. Fleet Captain Pike was in one episode, getting two mentions of his rank. Other folks wearing odd rank markers get to make amends, the wrong pins possibly being a character error made while dressing in the morning, that one fateful day. Valeris consistently flaunts a contradiction, despite getting close attention and even looking at a mirror surface every now and then.
Timo Saloniemi
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There is a scene in "The Final Reflection" (best ST novel ever imho) where Sarek is discussing with eminent diplomats and scientists how Spock was "created",(Spock is only about seven at this point) through some gene splicing/genetic fusion techniques. Tellingly, Amanda is with Sarek as he boastfuly explains the leaps in Vulcan science that has achieved this, and she is described as having a very tight and distressed expression!ENT says that Vulcans and Humans cannot produce a natural offspring; it can only be attained with gene splicing. Perhaps Sarek also added some augmentation to the mix to make him super smart, too. So, I guess I'm saying that Spock is a Vulcan augment.
This is my "head canon" on the topic.
Roddenberry has an "interview" with Sarek on his Inside Star Trek record album* where Sarek describes in detail the techniques that enabled them to carry Spock to term.
So according to Roddenberry, it was 13 months between the time that Spock was conceived and when he was delivered.
*Roddenberry got Mark Lenard to appear instead of Leonard Nimoy because Nimoy was still in the midst of his lawsuit against Paramount over his likeness rights at the time.
This really ruins it for me. I'd much rather that Spock was conceived and birthed in the usual manner, which I'm sure is what everyone associated with the show and fans assumed all along.
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I agree that would be what most people assumed. But I guess that people like me enjoy brain storming the "what if's" and "how's".
And I think for me it has always been about the effect of different blood chemistry's. I stand to be corrected, but (with my very limited knowledge) presume that some sort of genetic manipulation would be needed to create some sort of iron/copper blood chemistry compatibility to enable a child to be concieved and born?
Yes, I know that we have the theory of the "Preservers" spreading humanoid (sorry, parochial shorthand word!) across the Milky Way. But I took that as mostly being their encouragement of various proto humanoid species across the galaxy, not that we all came from one humanoid source and so all easily capable of interbreeding. Of course all this is just nonsense with no canon justification. But fun anyway imho.
That's always been my assumption, yes.
But there's nothing in the show to indicate any genetic manipulation was necessary. The writers would have someone tell us if that were the case.
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Just like they told us how warp drive, transporters and phasers work?? ☺
I thought iron based beings might mate and conceive children, but not for Vulcans and humans.
Fleet Captains should be Chief of Staff. Maybe for a specific Fleet than the whole Starfleet? Though Pike and Garth were legendary, and it seems just to be a honorary thing, a sort of 'special captain because you did great things while being captain'.
Roddenberry was in this weird position where he didn't want to show Starfleet as an armed, militant force; but he drew upon his experiences from being in the Army Air Forces itself and mixed it with what was going on in space at the time. The reason there are no real non-officers is because he saw everyone on the ship as a trained astronaut, which were all officers, which also ties into the Air Force using officers to fly, though they still have non-coms and enlisted 'ground-side' (and let's not forget the Flying Sergeants of WW2), but then also shifted it to being based off the Navy...dunno how much of that was due to inherent inertia in Scifi or his own thing.
In any case even in 1966+, 'Fleet Captain' would be a rare thing to know about or see. Since neither Garth nor Pike were doing anything remotely 'chief of staff-y' the conclusion is that its just a honorable, role-less rank/accolade.
Roddenberry was in this weird position where he didn't want to show Starfleet as an armed, militant force; but he drew upon his experiences from being in the Army Air Forces itself and mixed it with what was going on in space at the time. The reason there are no real non-officers is because he saw everyone on the ship as a trained astronaut, which were all officers, which also ties into the Air Force using officers to fly, though they still have non-coms and enlisted 'ground-side' (and let's not forget the Flying Sergeants of WW2), but then also shifted it to being based off the Navy...dunno how much of that was due to inherent inertia in Scifi or his own thing.
In any case even in 1966+, 'Fleet Captain' would be a rare thing to know about or see. Since neither Garth nor Pike were doing anything remotely 'chief of staff-y' the conclusion is that its just a honorable, role-less rank/accolade.
It seems that there is a general consensus that "Fleet Captain," is only a rank in the sense that if there were a group of Captains gathered with their ships do "something," then if one in the midst was a "Fleet Captain," that person would be the most senior and be in charge unless an Admiral showed up
If that is the case, though, then why, in-universe, would Captain Picard not ever be referred to in this way, with all his experience in a previous command, and the fact that his ship is the most prestigious one in the fleet and would theoretically always be the lead ship of any task-force in which it took part?
(This might help explain why Riker stays around instead of taking a promotion for so long, though. Maybe he feels being Picard's first officer is close to being a Captain already.)
If that is the case, though, then why, in-universe, would Captain Picard not ever be referred to in this way, with all his experience in a previous command, and the fact that his ship is the most prestigious one in the fleet and would theoretically always be the lead ship of any task-force in which it took part?
(This might help explain why Riker stays around instead of taking a promotion for so long, though. Maybe he feels being Picard's first officer is close to being a Captain already.)
