Pike and "Fleet Captain"?

[BillJ]

Just a general wondering while my brain continues to reform its normal shape after a concert last night...

As far as I'm aware, we never heard of the Fleet Captain rank before or after Pike ascending to the rank prior to TOS. So what events actually happened that had him finally deciding to take a desk job, and from what I can tell, an honorary rank?

If he had just ran his course as a starship commander and was ready to take the next step in his career, why not promotion to Commodore or Rear Admiral?

I guess what I'm getting around to is, did Pike screw up badly near the end of his time as captain of the Enterprise? Causing Starfleet to chain him to a desk with an honorary rank? The reason I'm asking is that it seemed like that was in the cards for Kirk during the events of "Court Martial". Starfleet burying his supposed misdeed and chaining him to a desk, as opposed putting one of their own on trial for negligence.

Just random melted brain, Sunday morning musing. Feel free to toss the proverbial tomatoes and tell me how wrong this train of thought is.

 

[Khan Jr]

I think Garth was also a fleet captain, and he certainly screwed up...

 

[BillJ]

I think Garth was also a fleet captain, and he certainly screwed up...

I thought about "Whom Gods Destroy", and Starship Fleet Captain came off as awkward in that episode to me. It also didn't seem like he was commanding anything other than a single ship when he attacked Antos. Though I guess the promotion could've been placed on his record after those events? A final gesture for the good he did before he lost his mind.

Like I said, just mindless Sunday ramblings.

Fleet Captain... the rank you receive when you've fucked up badly.

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

I always figured that Fleet Captain was the most junior of the flag ranks, filling the same role as a Commodore of the 2nd class in the Royal Navy. That is to say commanding both the squadron and his own ship within that squadron. Fleet Captain could also be deputy to a higher ranked flag officer.

In space he would command a patrol or exploration squadron in peacetime or a combat squadron in wartime. Mostly frigates and destroyers with maybe a scout, and a single cruiser (the Fleet Captain's ship) to back them up. In peacetime the ships were pretty independent of one another, while in wartime they functioned as a single unit. This probably what Garth was doing when he was injured and driven over the edge.

As for Pike I think he was sort of a roving troubleshooter for Starfleet answering only to the Commanding Admiral, probably Nogura, when he was crippled saving the cadets on the training ship.

 

[Phaser Two]

Fleet captain sounds like a rank and may have been one, but it may instead have been a billet (a specific personnel position) rather than a rank, and it just happens to sound like a rank. That would explain a lot.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Maybe we misheard and it's a fetish thing. Feet captain.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

A couple of years ago I speculated that Pike might have possibly replaced Garth as Fleet Captain. I ultimately dropped the idea when I realized that "Whom Gods Destroy" works better if Garth had just recently gone insane and the mutiny on his ship was sometime between "The Tholian Web" and WGD.

I think Duncan MacLeod is probably on the right track as to what the position entailed. I'd imagine that Pike was concerned with fleet deployments, ship assignments, and the like.

 

[Timo]

We have plenty of options here. Or did, until last year.

1) Fleet Captain is the exact same as Kirk's TOS rank, the one with |:| braid, and thus more than Pike wore when we last saw him in "The Cage". Everybody and his Pakled cousin can be a "mere" captain, including folks like Harry Mudd; being a Starfleet Captain by rank is something different. Although of course the distinction would seldom arise when Starfleet heroes are having a discussion. But it would be relevant when a captain in Starfleet reaches the rank of Captain, having previously been a captain of Commander rank.

2) Fleet Captain is a rank superior to mere Captain.

2a) Yet it holds purely honorary significance. It might be a reward for somebody about to retire without hope for further career progress, or a public relations job much like Master Petty Officer of the Navy.
2b) It comes above Captain but below Commodore, and is a milestone people have to pass before reaching flag rank.
2c) It comes above Captain but isn't a necessary step for reaching Commodore, and might be an alternative for those hordes of heroes who hotly refuse to give up captaincy - even if Fleet Captain factually means giving up the ship while Commodore clearly does not.

3) Fleet Captain isn't a rank at all, but a decoration, even if receiving it can be called a "promotion". Just a slight variation of #2 there.

However, we have now

I) seen that Pike reached the |:| braid status before the date when he handed over the hero ship to the next hero, even though the handover was at least loosely associated with the promotion timewise in dialogue, and
II) seen a flashforward where Pike wore five stars on his shoulders, suggestive of a factual promotion over the rank associated with four shoulder doodads - that is, the |:| braid, at least per logical inference and direct evidence from the Kelvinverse.

So of the above, only #2 really matches the facts now. But we get no help as to whether a, b or c would be preferable.

However, Garth never was actually called a Fleet Captain. Instead, the dialogue involved our heroes appealing to the madman's better nature by referring to the fact that he was a Captain in the "starship fleet", the word "fleet" never appearing in isolation. That dialogue really works just fine IMHO: starships are special ships, so a Captain in that part of the fleet must be considered an exceptionally fit individual who really should behave up to demanding specs and uphold principles even when burdened by greater responsibility than most.

So Pike really stands alone here. And eventually sits alone. Had the promotion come in connection with the crippling event, we could plead 2a with conviction. But Pike is crippled already in the DSC episode where he learns his fate: apparently, he resigns to it, perhaps due to the influence of that dastardly time crystal. Perhaps Starfleet didn't have the heart to give him the boot even when he told them he was never going to go for flag rank and was hell-bent on taking a cadet training assignment for the rest of his life so that he could fulfill the prophecy.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

The biggest problem I see here is Starbase Eleven and it's rotation of staff, Commodore Mendez and Commodore Stone!!! How quick does Starfleet change it's sector Commanders? If we watch Court Martial in production order then we have to say that the ship leaves Starbase Eleven and returns in a few days and the change in leadership is evident and was Captain Pike on the base at the time of Court Martial if viewed in Production order?
JB

 

[Timo]

But Mendez never was said to be SB11 head honcho. All we ever got was him giving his address as SB11 in his (probably faked) final message.

The idea that Mendez in his gold shirt would hold a position comparable to the redshirted Stone and Stocker is sorta contradicted by Mendez so readily abandoning "his post" and joining Kirk on the desperate chase for the stolen starship. Of course, that wasn't the real Mendez (if such a creature ever existed), but Kirk saw nothing wrong with that behavior...

If starships can be commanded by goldshirt Commodores, as seen with Decker, any starbase hosting starships would have its share of such. Mendez' association with our heroes could be for whatever reason - perhaps he's a close friend of Pike's, and for that reason is receiving our heroes at what seems to be the base's hospital section. He could also access the general resources of the base (such as the Computer Center) just like the next guy with that much braid, without bothering the higher-ups in the base staff. But OTOH he needs to be brought up to speed on the fact that computer records can be faked, something Commodore Stone would be very aware of by that time.

Mendez' dependable Miss Piper seems to be in specific charge of hospital affairs, FWIW: she's aware of Pike's disappearance but ignorant of the Enterprise having been stolen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Phaser Two]

The biggest problem I see here is Starbase Eleven and it's rotation of staff, Commodore Mendez and Commodore Stone!!! How quick does Starfleet change it's sector Commanders? If we watch Court Martial in production order then we have to say that the ship leaves Starbase Eleven and returns in a few days and the change in leadership is evident and was Captain Pike on the base at the time of Court Martial if viewed in Production order?
JB

This is enough to drive a man to BOOKS!!!!

 

[Timo]

...Of course, the events of "Court Martial" might be reason enough for Stone to request immediate reassignment or perhaps retirement. How dare he confront Jim Kirk and lose?

But as for the timetable, the adventure with Mendez reaches the "less than a day left to Talos" point on stardate 3012 or thereabouts. Spock previously said the trip would take six days at maximum warp, so we might argue Pike was first seen in the base about a week before this stardate.

Kirk's courtroom ordeal in turn concludes in SD 2950. If we go by 1000 SD = 365 days, there's still room for a couple of weeks between the adventure endpoints. Not "months", which is how long Pike had been crippled. Or how long his unfortunate fate had been known to the public, to be more exact.

We don't need to assume that Pike would be immediately whisked to SB11, of course. But where's the subspace gossip during "Court Martial"? Or is 60 SD units long enough to account for said "months"? I mean, Mendez is prone to exaggeration...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

I guess what I'm getting around to is, did Pike screw up badly near the end of his time as captain of the Enterprise? Causing Starfleet to chain him to a desk with an honorary rank?

I don't think that's likely. Officers who screw up badly are shown to the door as soon as possible, they certainly aren't promoted.

The idea that duty involving a desk is some kind of a disgrace is a kind of an idea that crept into Trek over the years, and I find it fairly annoying. I understand that a show about people attending planning meetings and reading reports wouldn't work, but that doesn't mean the people doing those kinds of jobs aren't doing important work. Even in the days when admirals actually had to be with their fleets, administration was their main job. Lord Nelson would spend the largest portion of his day at his desk in the admiral's cabin, going over paperwork with his captain of the fleet, secretary and clerk.

Fleet captain sounds like a rank and may have been one, but it may instead have been a billet (a specific personnel position) rather than a rank, and it just happens to sound like a rank.

That would work well. In fact "fleet captain" was a position in the US Navy in the Civil War period, sometimes held by a captain but more commonly by commander or lieutenant commander, depending on the size of the squadron. The only drawback I see is that people usually use the language of "promoted to" for increases in actual rank. But it's not out of the question, for sure.

 

[BillJ]

The idea that duty involving a desk is some kind of a disgrace is a kind of an idea that crept into Trek over the years, and I find it fairly annoying.

I think it started fairly early on, with Stone wanting Kirk to accept a "ground assignment" in "Court Martial" and was really in full effect by The Motion Picture.

Just part of Star Trek's DNA.

 

[Timo]

In fact "fleet captain" was a position in the US Navy in the Civil War period, sometimes held by a captain but more commonly by commander or lieutenant commander, depending on the size of the squadron. The only drawback I see is that people usually use the language of "promoted to" for increases in actual rank. But it's not out of the question, for sure.

Another factor favoring "actual rank" nowadays is that we see the unique five-star decoration on Pike's uniform in DSC. Of course, rank markings in Trek have always been subject to debate, and the obvious author intent, packed in a sack, would be worth the sack. But still... Five stars trumps everything ever seen, other than the Master of the Universe flag rank held by Admiral Marcus in that other timeline. Certainly good evidence for a "true promotion", if admitted to court.

Lateral promotions in Trek are a thing, though: O'Brien was even in danger of "losing his promotion" if assigned away from DS9, suggesting the discussion was about his new prestigious status as Chief of Operations on the space station, rather than his (admittedly nebulous) rank or enlisted rating.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

I think it started fairly early on, with Stone wanting Kirk to accept a "ground assignment" in "Court Martial" and was really in full effect by The Motion Picture.

"Court Martial" is different, though. That would be a premature end to Kirk's tour as a starship captain, and, presumably, bar him from further operational commands like Decker and Wesley had.

But TMP was where it really started to get silly, yeah.

Just part of Star Trek's DNA.

Well, it's a stupid part.

 

[Ronald Held]

Maybe Fleet Captain is a temporary rank until a Commodore position opens up?

 

[BillJ]

"Court Martial" is different, though. That would be a premature end to Kirk's tour as a starship captain, and, presumably, bar him from further operational commands like Decker and Wesley had.

That and we see Commodore Stocker to be a complete and utter disaster in "The Deadly Years".

KIRK: Stocker? Are you crazy? He's never had a field command.

KIRK: No! Don't talk to me about rank! The man's a chair-bound paper-pusher. I order you to take command.

Well, it's a stupid part.

Yes. No. Maybe? In an action-adventure show, I think it is natural for the desk folks to represent something of an "enemy". You don't want to deal with them, and you definitely don't want to be one of them. It was also a huge part of M*A*S*H.

 

[Henoch]

Based on my understanding from the Master and Commander book series, a Fleet Captain is an aide to an Admiral in command over a fleet and has a physical presence in the fleet on his flagship. The Fleet Captain's function is to give orders to all the ships in the fleet (assumed to come from the Admiral). He also may be the post captain of the flagship, but probably not since this would divide his duties between his own ship and the fleet deployment. A Commodore is a post captain rank, given temporary command over a squadron of post ships with no Admiral actually in the squadron. The Commodore may command his own ship, or optionally, have a post captain in command.

 

[Timo]

Our examples of Commodore would nicely fit that bill, assuming the rest of Decker's force was off screen and unavailable due to the DDM jamming subspace comms. Our one example of Fleet Captain, supposedly not: what the heck was he doing on a training mission on an apparent dedicated training ship?

Timo Saloniemi