Picture of Archer as UFP President in 2184!

[Sci]

Well Sci as I am sure you know the future is all about IDIC and mankind has evolved past their grasping need for fashion and the cultural dominance of one group over another.

Exactly! Well, I'm not sure it's a matter of outgrowing a "need" for fashion as much as it is a matter of outgrowing the idea that one culture's formal garb are superior to another's, provided that the garb used is garb that demonstrates formality and respect for the others involved in the function attended. Clothing is a form of communication, after all.

So I am sure they will let you wear your tie(s) to formal functions, maybe even without any tittering taking place. No, seriously. Someone has to preserve the past!

What the hell is with this hostility towards neckties?

I'm sure neckties are still used in the 24th Century, just as I'm sure that kilts, bunads, hátíðarbúningur, saris, dashikis, and kebayas are still used, amongst others. And I rather imagine that by the 22nd Century, humanity would have evolved to the point of being able to respect one-another's formal wear without it being a matter of anger or hostility that a harmless tradition in which one does not wish to partake has survived.

Of course they are only entrenched in western culture. They don't wear neckties in the Pacific Islands, much of the African continent..

Tell that to the President of Palau. Or to the Prime Minister of East Timor. Or to the President of Indonesia. Or to the President of the Marshall Islands. Or to the President of Nauru. Or to the Prime Minister of Papau New Guinea. Or to the President of Uganda. Or to the President of Ghana. Or to the President of South Africa. Or to the President of Algeria. Or to the Prime Minister of Morocco. Or to the President of Kenya.

All of which is not to say that the necktie is somehow universal -- it is not. But it has spread to a great many cultures outside Western culture. Will African and Asian cultures keep it as they grow in power and Europe and America decline in dominance? No one knows. One would certainly hope that their native formal garb would be preserved and that they are not forced to kowtow to Western/European ideas of formal garb, but that does not mean they may not continue to use the necktie of their own free will.

But in the Star Trek Universe, I for one would posit that neckties, like any form of formal garb from any culture on Earth, are accepted for use in formal settings in both the Federation and United Earth governments.

And we're talking about a man who was born and raised in a Western nation.

No, we are talking about Starfleet dress code. It's not like Archer is just lounging around at home chillin' in his tie.

The President of the United Federation of Planets isn't beholden to the Starfleet dress code.

Exactly. I'm not sure why this keeps popping up. The Federation President need no more follow the Starfleet dress code than the Prime Minister of Canada need follow the dress code of the Canadian Forces, or than the President of the Argentine Nation obey the dress codes of the Argentine Army.

For whatever it's worth, though, I for one would hope that the Federation Starfleet doesn't just copy the United Earth Starfleet's admiral's uniform. For one thing, I don't see why the UESF should be privileged over the Vulcan, Andorian, or Tellarite space services in the selection of the Federation Starfleet's uniforms. For another, the UESF admiral's uniform just looks silly -- it's like they tried to cross a jump suit with a business suit.

No, we are talking about Starfleet dress code. It's not like Archer is just lounging around at home chillin' in his tie.

The President of the United Federation of Planets isn't beholden to the Starfleet dress code.

He is wearing a Starfleet uniform in the photo, so we are talking about Starfleet dress code.

No, we're talking about whether or not neckties have disappeared as a form of formal wear within Federation and Earth society as of the 2180s. Your original objection was to neckties in general, not to neckties in Starfleet uniforms, and the subsequent discussion as focused on neckties, not on their presence within a uniform design.

 

[STAdventures]

Something told me that posting this image with Archer in a military uniform would spark this conversation (maybe deep down i wanted to have this conversation?) ... anyway ... to settle it i've made an edit:

 

[Sci]

Something told me that posting this image with Archer in a military uniform would spark this conversation (maybe deep down i wanted to have this conversation?) ... anyway ... to settle it i've made an edit:

Also an excellent image!

 

[Skywalker]

Whoa, missed the new page. The edit looks great, STAdventure!

 

[STAdventures]

don't we get rid of wrinkles by 2184? Aww, what do i care? nice job

Remember Dr. McCoy in TNG episode "Encounter at Farpoint"? His wrinkles make Archer look like a new born baby.

Actually, i just watched that episode again today - funny you mentioned it. But anyway, McCoy was 137 in that episode. Here in 2184, Archer is only 72.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

All I'm saying is that ties don't feature in TOS and TNG. I would be happy for someone to post a TOS tie photo so I can amend my understanding of the future history of ties. When you have some 700 eps and not a tie to be seen this seems to point to them dying out. They are a kind of odd useless thing hanging off the neck--it seems likely that they may at some point end up viewed as an archaic oddity. My impression was that TOS onwards chose to make their formal dress scenes look distinctly different from today and one way they did that was to axe the tie.

I await your TOS and/or TNG tie photos. I need to date its demise.

 

[Sci]

All I'm saying is that ties don't feature in TOS and TNG. I would be happy for someone to post a TOS tie photo so I can amend my understanding of the future history of ties. <SNIP>

I await your TOS and/or TNG tie photos. I need to date its demise.

I never said that ties were used by the costume departments of TNG or TOS. What I did say was that their absence from the canon does not rule them out. After all, the Enterprise NX-01 was never mentioned or featured in any episodes of TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY -- in spite of what is later revealed to be its extreme historical significance -- yet that didn't preclude the producers of ENT from establishing its presence and importance in Trek history.

When it comes to the Trekverse, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

When you have some 700 eps and not a tie to be seen this seems to point to them dying out.

Considering how few of them have involved Human civilian officials in positions were neckties would be expected, I don't agree at all.

They are a kind of odd useless thing hanging off the neck--it seems likely that they may at some point end up viewed as an archaic oddity.

*shrugs* Plenty of articles of clothing might be seen as "odd, useless things" if one has a purely utilitarian view of clothing. But, really, if that were the case, why wouldn't Humanity have simply abandoned garb altogether upon developing perfect weather control systems (as established in TNG's "True Q").

Obviously, clothing serves more than a mere utilitarian function. So why wouldn't neckties survive?

 

[STAdventures]

All I'm saying is that ties don't feature in TOS and TNG. I would be happy for someone to post a TOS tie photo so I can amend my understanding of the future history of ties. When you have some 700 eps and not a tie to be seen this seems to point to them dying out. They are a kind of odd useless thing hanging off the neck--it seems likely that they may at some point end up viewed as an archaic oddity. My impression was that TOS onwards chose to make their formal dress scenes look distinctly different from today and one way they did that was to axe the tie.

I await your TOS and/or TNG tie photos. I need to date its demise.

http://www.zazzle.com/star_trek_tos_classic_blue_science_tie-151444910094161423

lol

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

All I'm saying is that ties don't feature in TOS and TNG. I would be happy for someone to post a TOS tie photo so I can amend my understanding of the future history of ties. <SNIP>

I await your TOS and/or TNG tie photos. I need to date its demise.

I never said that ties were used by the costume departments of TNG or TOS. What I did say was that their absence from the canon does not rule them out. After all, the Enterprise NX-01 was never mentioned or featured in any episodes of TOS, TNG, DS9, or VOY -- in spite of what is later revealed to be its extreme historical significance -- yet that didn't preclude the producers of ENT from establishing its presence and importance in Trek history.

When it comes to the Trekverse, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Of course not. This is my conjecture that they will have disappeared from everyday and formal dress.

When you have some 700 eps and not a tie to be seen this seems to point to them dying out.

Considering how few of them have involved Human civilian officials in positions were neckties would be expected, I don't agree at all.

They are a kind of odd useless thing hanging off the neck--it seems likely that they may at some point end up viewed as an archaic oddity.

*shrugs* Plenty of articles of clothing might be seen as "odd, useless things" if one has a purely utilitarian view of clothing. But, really, if that were the case, why wouldn't Humanity have simply abandoned garb altogether upon developing perfect weather control systems (as established in TNG's "True Q").

Obviously, clothing serves more than a mere utilitarian function. So why wouldn't neckties survive?

Scotty wore a kilt, I am sure neckties may survive in much the same way as kilts. But my conjecture is that they will not be normative.

Maybe it's the country I live in.. I have yet to meet a man who doesn't think ties are silly at best and horrible at worst. People wear them because it's expected but plenty of folk would be happy to see them pass into obscurity.

 

[Sci]

Maybe it's the country I live in..

May I ask what country that is?

I have yet to meet a man who doesn't think ties are silly at best and horrible at worst.

Hello! My name's Sci, I'm a man, and I think neckties are cool. I even tend to wear neckties with T-shirts when I think they go well together.

ETA:

Scotty wore a kilt, I am sure neckties may survive in much the same way as kilts. But my conjecture is that they will not be normative.

I would agree that neckties probably wouldn't be normative. But I don't think that means anything. I would argue that in a United Federation comprised of over 150 planets, most of which would presumably have many different cultures, and many of which may have off-world colonies under their own jurisdiction (in the same way that Long Island is part of the State of New York rather than being its own state in the United States), there simply won't be any such thing as normative.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Maybe it's the country I live in..

May I ask what country that is?

Australia. The last country to cave in and join United Earth.

I have yet to meet a man who doesn't think ties are silly at best and horrible at worst.

Hello! My name's Sci, I'm a man, and I think neckties are cool. I even tend to wear neckties with T-shirts when I think they go well together.

Well Sci when we meet some day, perhaps in Quark's at some super revamped Star Trek Experience I will amend my tally to include 1. Man.

Scotty wore a kilt, I am sure neckties may survive in much the same way as kilts. But my conjecture is that they will not be normative.

I would agree that neckties probably wouldn't be normative. But I don't think that means anything. I would argue that in a United Federation comprised of over 150 planets, most of which would presumably have many different cultures, and many of which may have off-world colonies under their own jurisdiction (in the same way that Long Island is part of the State of New York rather than being its own state in the United States), there simply won't be any such thing as normative.

Well that's to be hoped, but there will still exist uniforms and dress codes. They will have to have norms.

Now if you want really futuristic, non-normative for our age dress style check out Jake Sisko in some of the earlier seasons..

 

[T'Girl]

Seeing a Federation President wearing a Starfleet uniform makes me think of Fidel Castro or Saddam Hussein or Idi Amin -- dictators who dressed up in military garb because their control of the military was what put them in charge.

How does having the exact same people in business suits, make them somehow better people? Jonathan Archer in a quasi-military uniform is still the same man he is dressed differently. Perhaps people in the future will realize that a elected official dressed in a fashion that reflects pride in his past accomplishments, shouldn't be grounds for completely irrational fears on their parts..

... the symbolism I talked about earlier. Seeing a President in a military uniform can be a deeply disturbing image for people who have strong political beliefs about the importance of military subordination to the civilian authority.

Winston Churchill occasionally appeared in a military officers uniform while the British Prime Minister,

What makes you think Federation Presidents wear uniforms, of all things? Uniforms, in a political context, are for military and paramilitary organizations, not the civilian, democratic government.

Unless it standard on the other worlds that first made up the Federation for their elected leaders to wear "The Uniform of State," no worst than a sash or a heavy chain with medallion. There might be an expectation for President Archer, at official functions, to dress himself in quasi-military uniform.

After all, he's the President of the Federation, not the President of a Earth western county.

Referred to as Admiral, during his time in office and forever after.

He may be referred to as "Admiral" after he leaves office -- Dwight D. Eisenhower preferred to be referred to as "General" after he left office -- but Archer would never be addressed as "Admiral" while in office.

When Archer became President, the Federation was still young and likely still in the process of establishing it own customs and traditions. If Archer had a preference to be referred to as "Admiral" while serving as President, there would have been no tradition to say no. I'll remind you that the tradition of referring to the US President as "Mr President," came from the first President. The President decided what he would be called. There certainly nothing disrespectful about "Admiral."

Bush Jr wore a flight suit.

That was for a widely-derided photo op

You'll have to admit, derided solely by the President Bush's broken record detractors.

 

[Skywalker]

Yeah, let's not bring real-world politics into this, please.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Something told me that posting this image with Archer in a military uniform would spark this conversation (maybe deep down i wanted to have this conversation?) ... anyway ... to settle it i've made an edit:

Beautiful!

...But I'll wager you didn't quite expect that your picture would end up being a disagreement about fashion.

(I like ties, too.)

Yeah, let's not bring real-world politics into this, please.

I agree. Please return to squabbling about ties, or discussing Photoshopping, or something having to do with the picture.

Perhaps a word or two about Archer? I think he's aged quite well in this photo.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Perhaps a word or two about Archer?

HOT!

 

[Skywalker]

Yeah, let's not bring real-world politics into this, please.

I agree. Please return to squabbling about ties, or discussing Photoshopping, or something having to do with the picture.

Perhaps a word or two about Archer? I think he's aged quite well in this photo.

Hey! What do you think you are, some kind of mod or something?

Oh, wait...

Oh, right, Archer! Um...well, nice guy, but I don't think I'd vote for someone who supports genocide.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Oh, right, Archer! Um...well, nice guy, but I don't think I'd vote for someone who supports genocide.

But dude, this aggression will not stand!

 

[Count Zero]

Oh, right, Archer! Um...well, nice guy, but I don't think I'd vote for someone who supports genocide.

But dude, this aggression will not stand!

When did he support genocide?
Ah, you mean the events in "Dear Doctor"? If so, you might want to check the definition of genocide...

I'm not sure I would have voted for him, it would be cool if we had ever learned what his politics would have been. On the other hand, the President of the Federation might just be a figurehead, the head of state, not the head of government, like in many countries. In which case I probably would have voted for him. In any case I always found his blackmailing of Samuels to get his way quite impressive.

He looks very nice and content in the picture. Where is the original from?

 

[STAdventures]

He looks very nice and content in the picture. Where is the original from?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wait a minute!!!! Is that a necktie!!!!!!!

It would be sad if the ascot and the disco medallion survived (I'm looking at you Leonard McCoy) and the necktie didn't.