Pick-A-Dax

[Distorted Humor]

Well, the whole "Ezri is liked more then Jazdia since she more traditional" gets blown out of the water as almost all the people who posted said they like Ezri, also said they like Kira, who far from a "traditional" woman (nor is Ro for that matter in TNG, but I like Ro too)

As Nerys pointed out, J. Dax has some personality issues that can drop the likeablity of her. (and actually, since there always the accusation that we don't like her since she not nurturing, I found Pre Blood Oath Dax nurturing.) And I put some of this on the actress. Terry Farrell is still, and very much at the time of her casting, one of the best looking women, but her acting was not good enough to make J. Dax as written as likeable as nicole de boer Ezri Dax. And since turnabout is fair play, I would LOVE to have the looks of R. Beltran, but his wooden acting ruined his character. (though Terry Farrell did better then Beltran IMO)

and also I laugh that since I perfer Ezri, that means I HATE J. Dax. when I would put J. Dax as my most liked ST characters at around 10.

1. Data
2. O'Brian
3. Ezri
4. Sisko
5. EMH
6. Kira
7. Garak
8. Quark
9. Odo
10. Pre Blood Oath Dax
11. Dukat
12 Kes
13. 7 of 9
14. Edditon
15. KPG Dax

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The place where we see her attitudes towards her relationships with men is mainly with Bashir and Worf; with most of the others we hear little other than that she was with them.

In the Jadzia-Bashir situation, I should begin by pointing out that in those early seasons, Bashir thought he was the best thing since sliced bread, and I'll be the first one to admit he came off as an ass. I don't like that, and would not have wanted to hang out with him, or have any sort of relationship other than professional, at that point. So the scenario I'm about to describe is a "double fault" situation.

Bashir had a bad combination of poor judgment and an overinflated ego. Jadzia's initial answer, that she was simply not interested was a good one, and would have sufficed on its own. And of course Bashir should have paid attention rather than continuing when he was unwanted. But she instead encouraged his pursuit (stated in some of those earlier episodes--sources provided on Memory Alpha), used him like a plaything. I don't think that the bad behavior of one (Bashir) justifies the bad behavior of the other (Jadzia), personally. They both started with the same fundamental lack of respect towards each other, and there was no way that was going to end well where anyone was concerned.

[Enter my own supposition--which is not necessary for my case to stand and can be ignored, but I simply include it for speculation's sake: we later hear Ezri state that had Worf not come along, Bashir would eventually have been the one. This might've been because Bashir became more respectful towards others and learned that his arrogant traits were unacceptable. (Kira and O'Brien played a big role in that, thank goodness.) But I don't think Jadzia really changed her behavior...]

What I did not care for about Jadzia's relationship to Worf is similar to what I have not liked about the Keiko-Miles marriage. We all know that Worf is very, very, very devout in his belief in Klingon virtues, culture, and faith. This has its pros and cons, but there is no arguing that it is an integral part of his culture. We know that he was not going to give up any of his ways. The better solution, rather than trying to change him (through ridicule and belittlement of his beliefs) would have been for Jadzia to decide whether or not she was willing to accept him as he was, and if not, then stop simultaneously sending "come-on" signals and then ridiculing him when he got too Klingon. Respect cannot be mixed with disdain; it doesn't work.

That's the problem that I had, personally. When I see people treat others like that, I don't care for it. How would I know that I might not end up the butt of ridicule if I displeased that person or a whim just happened to cross their mind? That's not a basis for trust or relationship of any kind.

In contrast, I generally did not see Kira treat people that way. The most I could say about her is that sometimes she gossiped (generally egged on by Jadzia), and shouldn't have done that. But I didn't see her belittle or ridicule those close to her.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I see we've been busy today.

Pretty much everything I wanted to say has already been covered by others. But, I will say this....

*sigh* I go away for a while and come back to find myself excused of being a sexist, again.

Well, if that happens with any consistency, you might want to check why.

I could call you a racist all the live-long day, even though it's patently untrue. But, if I continue to repeat the accusation long enough, does it mean that you should start asking yourself what you're doing to make me call you a racist?

 

[Deckerd]

I see we've been busy today.

Pretty much everything I wanted to say has already been covered by others. But, I will say this....

*sigh* I go away for a while and come back to find myself excused of being a sexist, again.

Well, if that happens with any consistency, you might want to check why.

I could call you a racist all the live-long day, even though it's patently untrue. But, if I continue to repeat the accusation long enough, does it mean that you should start asking yourself what you're doing to make me call you a racist?

I think that's precisely what iguana's asking you.

 

[Distorted Humor]

I see we've been busy today.

Pretty much everything I wanted to say has already been covered by others. But, I will say this....

Well, if that happens with any consistency, you might want to check why.

I could call you a racist all the live-long day, even though it's patently untrue. But, if I continue to repeat the accusation long enough, does it mean that you should start asking yourself what you're doing to make me call you a racist?

I think that's precisely what iguana's asking you.

Shran, what do you think of the racists today

 

[iguana_tonante]

I would imagine you don't feel your accusations of sexism to be "objective, true facts, written in stone", with "no personal opinions or room for disagreement."

Of course not. That's the point of a debate. You present your opinion, support it with evidences, and wait for a rebuttal. In the end, readers make their own mind about the point being debated, and that's the end of it.

But if you walk into a debate secure in your faith that you can't be wrong and your opinions are "objectively true" and as good as facts, then I'm not surprised you have such an hard time understanding the difference between opinions and evidences.

Consider:

Once again--it is the attitude we see conveyed concerning those relationships.

Further, consider Worf's description of Jadzia to Martok in "You Are Cordially Invited".

So in essence you are agreeing with a stuck-up klingon with personality issues and who has been scolded by his liege for being too inflexible and uncompromising, putting his own pride above the woman he loves? (Jadzia gets scolded by Sisko for the same reasons, and that's the point of the episode.)

I personally suspect that it is because there is no reasonable connection--and that your statements are purely emotional.

Uh, says the guy who is arguing his perceptions are some kind of objective truth? Again, your statements are as much as "emotional" as mine: I'd say even more, since all you are presenting are your own perceptions ("arrogant", "manipulative", "self-absorbed", "condescending", "vapid" etc). You just fail to see them as such because you are so entrenched in your own opinions you mistake them for facts.

Shran and Nerys may have more a problem with Jadzia than I do; you'll have to take it up with them.

Maybe. But you are the one replying me.

But if you are going to resort to mockery to "debate" me--than I see no reason to continue this discussion. I'll post more in this thread when and if the moods here have toned down.

Good night and good luck.

Meh. Kitchen, heat, and all the jazz.

One of the things I was trying to convey is the notion of Ezri falling in line with more traditional, or stereotyped roles of femininity as opposed to Jadzia. It's one of the things I believe is reflected in those who would choose Ezri as opposed to Jadzia in terms of a partner. Now, you don't have to be a man to promote those types of roles. Women also can have ideas about how other women should be. I'm not saying that's the case in this particular situation, but trotting out the "a woman agrees with me!" as a defense is missing some of the main points.

Yep. There is a lot of missing the point in this thread, my efforts to clear it up notwithstanding.

Well, the whole "Ezri is liked more then Jazdia since she more traditional" gets blown out of the water as almost all the people who posted said they like Ezri, also said they like Kira, who far from a "traditional" woman.

That's not completely true. In many ways, Kira may be constructed as "damaged", someone whose life was violated in more than one way, and which needed to discard compassion and innocence to strike down those who wronged her. The vengeful fury is a staple of traditional narrative for female characters as much as the damsel in distress and the nurturing healer. Jadzia, on the other hand, is much more modern as a character.

and also I laugh that since I perfer Ezri, that means I HATE J. Dax.

That's not what people said, so I don't really know why want to make a fight about it.

*sigh* I go away for a while and come back to find myself excused of being a sexist, again.

Well, if that happens with any consistency, you might want to check why.

I could call you a racist all the live-long day, even though it's patently untrue. But, if I continue to repeat the accusation long enough, does it mean that you should start asking yourself what you're doing to make me call you a racist?

Well, if it's one stalker with a personal vendetta against you, that's one thing. But if more than a few people keep saying something like that about you, it won't be unthinkable for someone to start questioning why they perceive you as such. We must always be wary of our own unconscious bias and prejudices.

 

[Distorted Humor]

The funny thing is that J. Dax is not really that strong of a female character. I mean, she meets a "Real" man in worf and goes all gaga over him. Most folks who have issues with strong female roles hate kira. I never encountered anyone who disliked J. Dax as they thought she was "Too Strong"...

Anyways, this is going all twilight zone in the rational that we do not like J. Dax since we don't like strong characters.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I mean, she meets a "Real" man in worf and goes all gaga over him.

This is actually a good point.

My perception of the pairing was more like it was played as an "funny couple" situation (he is serious, rigid, humourless and overbearing, while she is irreverent, relaxed, fun-loving, and clearly not intimidated by him, making his stern posturing ineffectual when dealing with her), with the plus that Jadzia has always been shown as interested in klingon culture.

But I can see your interpretation too.

 

[DimesDan]

Indeed. Now things have officially crossed over into the uncivil realm of baiting and trolling. *sigh*

Not really. I was just explaining why you and probably others like you have that mindset and why, even though yes in a fictional construct M as a woman is Bonds boss, what she says in that video has some far reaching and questions that need to be addressed.

I see you don't deny what I said though and accusing someone of trolling, that's against the rules right?

I was clearly not referring to that--and you know it:



You don't see a problem with this?

Please read my answer again as it's the same one and the one I used to answer that.

 

[Thestral]

The place where we see her attitudes towards her relationships with men is mainly with Bashir and Worf; with most of the others we hear little other than that she was with them.

Well then. Guess we have to talk about those two and also decide if we should be projecting her interactions with them back across how she relates to "men in general." WARNING: Long post ahead.

Bashir had a bad combination of poor judgment and an overinflated ego. Jadzia's initial answer, that she was simply not interested was a good one, and would have sufficed on its own. And of course Bashir should have paid attention rather than continuing when he was unwanted. But she instead encouraged his pursuit (stated in some of those earlier episodes--sources provided on Memory Alpha), used him like a plaything. I don't think that the bad behavior of one (Bashir) justifies the bad behavior of the other (Jadzia), personally. They both started with the same fundamental lack of respect towards each other, and there was no way that was going to end well where anyone was concerned.

I think you're misinterpreting what was going on there; I have a different interpretation. I think something has to be established though. Dax is old - one of the things that rarely came across in the show - and so, as a well-adjusted and (mostly) well-integrated Joined Trill, she's seen all this shit before, not unlike the Doctor if on a much much smaller scale. From the perspective of somebody that old, relating emotionally to somebody as painfully young as Julian might've been awkward, but I wouldn't be surprised if she could see his potential. And her being someone who's seen all this shit before and for whom time and age aren't as much of a factor is where I get my interpretation.

I read those early season interactions as Jadzia being willing to play a game that she thought Julian was ready for, but mischaracterized his own strength. His "dashing young gentleman" act and his love for playing the hero was probably not something that grew out of nowhere and burst fully formed into James Bond fantasies. A not-uncommon theme in such fantasies of course is the hero pursuing the coy but enticing femme fatale who he wears down with his charms and who eventually gives in to his advances. Let's suppose that Dax decided to go along with that role in her relationship with Bashir based on the idea that, like a Kirk or a Riker (when they were actually interested in a girl, not the 1960s stereotype thereof), Bashir wouldn't just give up and in the meantime could gain some maturity and actually grow into the hero he saw himself as. Except he did give up and also, for whatever reason, Dax fell for Worf when he came on the station.

Now, was this cruel of Jadzia if my interpretation was right and she was leading him on, but with the understanding he'd keep on pursuing because he liked the "game" since that's the type of person he claimed to be? Maybe foolish, maybe shortsighted and based on a fundamental misreading of Bashir, but I wouldn't call it cruel. This man
did prove to be extremely good at keeping a secret, after all.

[Enter my own supposition--which is not necessary for my case to stand and can be ignored, but I simply include it for speculation's sake: we later hear Ezri state that had Worf not come along, Bashir would eventually have been the one. This might've been because Bashir became more respectful towards others and learned that his arrogant traits were unacceptable. (Kira and O'Brien played a big role in that, thank goodness.) But I don't think Jadzia really changed her behavior...]

I do think that's a fair supposition and ties in nicely with my own reading.

What I did not care for about Jadzia's relationship to Worf is similar to what I have not liked about the Keiko-Miles marriage. We all know that Worf is very, very, very devout in his belief in Klingon virtues, culture, and faith. This has its pros and cons, but there is no arguing that it is an integral part of his culture. We know that he was not going to give up any of his ways. The better solution, rather than trying to change him (through ridicule and belittlement of his beliefs) would have been for Jadzia to decide whether or not she was willing to accept him as he was, and if not, then stop simultaneously sending "come-on" signals and then ridiculing him when he got too Klingon. Respect cannot be mixed with disdain; it doesn't work.

That's the problem that I had, personally. When I see people treat others like that, I don't care for it. How would I know that I might not end up the butt of ridicule if I displeased that person or a whim just happened to cross their mind? That's not a basis for trust or relationship of any kind.

Here's the thing whenever this comes up about her "belittling" Worf's Klingon-ness. There may be no non-Klingon in all of Star Trek (maybe Picard and perhaps Kirk in a "favored enemy" status) who's more familiar with, respectful of, and respected by Klingon culture than Dax. This is the being that a noble house scion named his heir after, the being that negotiated the Khitomer accords and whose carousing buddies included 3 Dahar masters. Indeed, she (as Curzon) probably spent more time with Klingons than Worf himself, who was orphaned at a young age and raised by humans with an idealized image of Klingon society. So we have to set aside any idea that Jadzia doesn't respect Klingon culture and look specifically at her relationship with Worf - and his relationship with Klingon culture.

In some ways, if you want to analyze it seriously, it mirrors the difficulties people have who come from a fundamentalist/conservative approach to their heritage/religion and those who come from a position that still highly values all those things, but is more relaxed about them. In some ways, Jadzia was a "better" Klingon than Worf, in that she was able to let her hair down and take part in the more irreverant and "fraternal/sororal" aspects of Klingon culture. Their clashes more often than not were about his stick-in-the-mudness and her efforts to get him to be more open and enjoying of life and expressive towards her and others. And of course to be fair, he would often get upset at the flightiness that a high-energy person with 350 years experience might reasonably be prone to - it's not like either one was perfect.

As to why they didn't just dump each other? Well, you don't exactly choose who to fall in love with, and you work through such things.

But I don't believe either example can be taken as strong evidence for generally "using" or disrespecting men. Yeah, she's a bit arrogant, I'll concede that one freely, but not overbearingly so.

That's not completely true. In many ways, Kira may be constructed as "damaged", someone whose life was violated in more than one way, and which needed to discard compassion and innocence to strike down those who wronged her. The vengeful fury is a staple of traditional narrative for female characters as much as the damsel in distress and the nurturing healer. Jadzia, on the other hand, is much more modern as a character.

Indeed. Kira's "brokenness" is (to a traditional mindset especially) a very attractive - and very old - character model where the woman's "strength" comes not from being integrated and at ease with herself, but from a need to discard traditional mores in order to survive in a world that's violated her. But if she hadn't been victimized, she'd be a lot more traditional. Kira also is very, very steeped in her religion and draws strength from it, which is attractive to me, but is also a very "traditional" character trait.

 

[Darth Duck]

My perception of the pairing was more like it was played as an "funny couple" situation (he is serious, rigid, humourless and overbearing, while she is irreverent, relaxed, fun-loving, and clearly not intimidated by him, making his stern posturing ineffectual when dealing with her), with the plus that Jadzia has always been shown as interested in klingon culture.

Jesus, they're Dharma and Greg on a space station.

 

[iguana_tonante]

So true!

 

[Rush Limborg]

Okay! Looks like the "kitchen" has the air conditioner on, now. Let's see...

So, what Rush, yer just going to ignore my last bits?

Not at all! Let's get down to business.

Once again--it is the attitude we see conveyed concerning those relationships.

Further, consider Worf's description of Jadzia to Martok in "You Are Cordially Invited".

Alright then, tell us about the attitudes we see conveyed concerning her relationships with

random-to-us Playing God alien

Since we never saw him before, and never saw him or even heard of him again...he doesn't strike me as a "serious" relationship--while the interaction seemed to imply something "steamy"...it seems like a one-night stand.

Also...TPTB noted in the DS9 Companion that she was using the situation to psych the student out--"scare" him into loosening up.

Captain Boday (who we never saw)

This one is kinda, sorta borderline between one-night and actual relationship, since we do hear of him a bit. The problem here is that in "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." Worf expresses concern that Jad went out with Boday. As well he should...since he and Jad are "involved", at this time.

(BTW, in that same ep, she seems to be flirting a bit with Curzon's Risan girfriend. Regardless of his actions to follow, Worf had every right to be ticked off and jealous--as, again, he and Jad are involved.)

Manuele Atoa (perhaps, and definitely in the past)

Again, this does imply a past relationship...but my concern is the severe flirtation she engages in with him.

Now...as to the objection, "Yeah, that never happens at a bachelor party"--ah...I wouldn't call that a good thing. She's the one going to be married, for goodness sake.

As I said before, she's "using" Atoa in the sense that she's trying to prove to herself that she doesn't need to be bound by the limits she feels are being "imposed" on her by Sirella, Worf, etc.

Worf

You'll have to ask Nerys about that. I don't have as much of a problem with their relationship post-marriage as she does, but...the idea basically coincides with mine.

Also, Worf's description of Jadzia? Would that be when they're personally on the outs and he's not thinking clearly?

So in essence you are agreeing with a stuck-up klingon with personality issues and who has been scolded by his liege for being too inflexible and uncompromising, putting his own pride above the woman he loves? (Jadzia gets scolded by Sisko for the same reasons, and that's the point of the episode.)

As I recall, Martok's "scolding" consisted of pointing out his own problems with Sirella--and then saying, "And yet...I love her deeply. We don't choose who we fall in love with."

Martok's point was not that Worf was wrong. His point--and Sisko's--was that, despite those "flaws", they can work together, and be ever stronger, as a couple.

BTW...when Quark announces to Bashir and O'Brien the two respective opinions of Jad and Worf, he says, "You can see the problem!" to which O'Brien responds, "They're both right."

I would imagine you don't feel your accusations of sexism to be "objective, true facts, written in stone", with "no personal opinions or room for disagreement."

Of course not. That's the point of a debate. You present your opinion, support it with evidences, and wait for a rebuttal. In the end, readers make their own mind about the point being debated, and that's the end of it.

But if you walk into a debate secure in your faith that you can't be wrong and your opinions are "objectively true" and as good as facts, then I'm not surprised you have such an hard time understanding the difference between opinions and evidences.

Uh, says the guy who is arguing his perceptions are some kind of objective truth? Again, your statements are as much as "emotional" as mine: I'd say even more, since all you are presenting are your own perceptions ("arrogant", "manipulative", "self-absorbed", "condescending", "vapid" etc). You just fail to see them as such because you are so entrenched in your own opinions you mistake them for facts.

iguana...the point of my question is that I am not claiming that my POV is "objective fact" any more--or less--than you are.

I agree that the point is that the readers form their own conculsions, based on our respective arguments.

Once again, I believe that my POV is right--just as you do. I "fail to see" nothing here, because I do not feel there is anything to see. And once again, I ask for a connection--and I, and I would imagine the readers as well, will not be satisfied with, "If you can't see the connection for yourself, then you must be stubborn and thickheaded".

I am sure you believe that your opinions are right, as well--otherwise, you would not express them.

Maybe. But you are the one replying me.

As was Distorted Humor.

Well, if that happens with any consistency, you might want to check why.

I could call you a racist all the live-long day, even though it's patently untrue. But, if I continue to repeat the accusation long enough, does it mean that you should start asking yourself what you're doing to make me call you a racist?

Well, if it's one stalker with a personal vendetta against you, that's one thing. But if more than a few people keep saying something like that about you, it won't be unthinkable for someone to start questioning why they perceive you as such. We must always be wary of our own unconscious bias and prejudices.

So the more voices saying something, the more likely it is to be true?

Majority opinion does not truth make, sir--as Socrates (champion of challenging popular mindsets) knew well....

 

[Thestral]

random-to-us Playing God alien

Since we never saw him before, and never saw him or even heard of him again...he doesn't strike me as a "serious" relationship--while the interaction seemed to imply something "steamy"...it seems like a one-night stand.

Also...TPTB noted in the DS9 Companion that she was using the situation to psych the student out--"scare" him into loosening up.

Two thoughts on this dude. First, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - just because we never see him before or after doesn't mean there wasn't anything there. Second - and far more importantly - who the hell cares if it was a one-night stand? You're making the bizarre assumption that because she had a one-night stand with somebody it means she was "using" him without providing any evidence thereof.

Also, I'm all about "author's intent," but it's not gospel and we're allowed to disagree. Which I do - and even if they're right, what, Jadzia and her fuckbuddy can't play a prank?

Captain Boday (who we never saw)

This one is kinda, sorta borderline between one-night and actual relationship, since we do hear of him a bit. The problem here is that in "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." Worf expresses concern that Jad went out with Boday. As well he should...since he and Jad are "involved", at this time.

(BTW, in that same ep, she seems to be flirting a bit with Curzon's Risan girfriend. Regardless of his actions to follow, Worf had every right to be ticked off and jealous--as, again, he and Jad are involved.)

We don't know what sort of relationship Boday and Jadzia had, but there was more than a one-night stand involved; Kira at one point refers to him as Jadzia's (ex-) boyfriend. Anyway, I'd be perfectly happy to wipe "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." from canon since the only good thing about it was Worf's soccer story (and Terry Farrell in a swimsuit ), but I guess we have to deal with it. And in dealing with it, we see Worf coming across as a jealous, moody teenager about Jadzia having lunch with Boday. How is having lunch with Boday "using" Worf; is it her fault he's so insecure?

That said, yes she's a bit unfairly friendly with Arandis, but she and Worf were mildly on the outs. Nobody's ever said she's perfect or flawless by any means.

Manuele Atoa (perhaps, and definitely in the past)

Again, this does imply a past relationship...but my concern is the severe flirtation she engages in with him.

Now...as to the objection, "Yeah, that never happens at a bachelor party"--ah...I wouldn't call that a good thing. She's the one going to be married, for goodness sake.

As I said before, she's "using" Atoa in the sense that she's trying to prove to herself that she doesn't need to be bound by the limits she feels are being "imposed" on her by Sirella, Worf, etc.

I'm going to let go for now the question of Atoa's dancing at Jadzia's party and chalk that one up to cultural differences, but my point in bringing up the bachelor party example was that it's an area where very few people bat an eye about men engaging in such behavior. Also, speaking of disagreeing with TPTB, this is another area where I depart from... is it Ron Moore?... who said she would have slept with him.

As far as "using" Atoa - is there ever any indication that he's harmed? That he feels taken advantage of and used? That we wasn't perfectly happy to be the life of the party?

As I recall, Martok's "scolding" consisted of pointing out his own problems with Sirella--and then saying, "And yet...I love her deeply. We don't choose who we fall in love with."

Martok's point was not that Worf was wrong. His point--and Sisko's--was that, despite those "flaws", they can work together, and be ever stronger, as a couple.

BTW...when Quark announces to Bashir and O'Brien the two respective opinions of Jad and Worf, he says, "You can see the problem!" to which O'Brien responds, "They're both right."

So they're not perfect and they sometimes rub each other the wrong way and they're going to fight and clash sometimes. SHOCK!!!!

I'm still not seeing how this makes Jadzia a "man-izer."

Any thoughts on Bashir?

 

[Rush Limborg]

random-to-us Playing God alien

Since we never saw him before, and never saw him or even heard of him again...he doesn't strike me as a "serious" relationship--while the interaction seemed to imply something "steamy"...it seems like a one-night stand.

Also...TPTB noted in the DS9 Companion that she was using the situation to psych the student out--"scare" him into loosening up.

Two thoughts on this dude. First, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - just because we never see him before or after doesn't mean there wasn't anything there.

We don't even hear about him, either--Jadzia never brings him up again, and neither do any of the other characters.

Second - and far more importantly - who the hell cares if it was a one-night stand? You're making the bizarre assumption that because she had a one-night stand with somebody it means she was "using" him without providing any evidence thereof.

I was using the statements of the authors as the evidence--

Also, I'm all about "author's intent," but it's not gospel and we're allowed to disagree. Which I do -

You noted that there are gaps of information as far as the eps were concerned. There, "original intent" tends to be a good place to interperet things.

and even if they're right, what, Jadzia and her fuckbuddy can't play a prank?

Perhaps. If that were the case, the "use" was consentual.

We don't know what sort of relationship Boday and Jadzia had, but there was more than a one-night stand involved; Kira at one point refers to him as Jadzia's (ex-) boyfriend. Anyway, I'd be perfectly happy to wipe "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." from canon since the only good thing about it was Worf's soccer story (and Terry Farrell in a swimsuit ), but I guess we have to deal with it.

We certainly do. Unfortunately, Trek canon is not a simple matter of "oh, I don't like that ep; therefore, we must strike it from canon". None but the Great Bird Himself had the authority to do that--and even then, the reference books, sent out with the approval of TPTB, overruled him about those parts of The Final Frontier after his death.

And in dealing with it, we see Worf coming across as a jealous, moody teenager about Jadzia having lunch with Boday. How is having lunch with Boday "using" Worf; is it her fault he's so insecure?

He had every right to be jealous. That may sound odd and "old-fashioned", but the fact is Worf took their relationship very seriously, viewing it with a long-term perspective, and Jadzia having a date (albeit a lunch date) with an ex-boyfriend seemed to imply to him that she didn't view their relationship as long-term as he did. Competition, if you will.

Now, that may not have been Jadzia's intent--but to be blunt, her acting like it was no big deal was pure insensitivity on her part--and it fed those doubts of Worf that she wasn't taking their relationship very seriously.

That said, yes she's a bit unfairly friendly with Arandis, but she and Worf were mildly on the outs. Nobody's ever said she's perfect or flawless by any means.

Of course not. Consider then, the implications of those particular flaws--and connect them with her actions in the beginning of the episode. She should have recognized Worf's concerns--and worked to reassure him that their relationship was sound, instead of behaving like she did. And like it or not--and there are many eps I don't like, but I have to deal with them as canon nontheless--like it or not, "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." is canon.

Again, this does imply a past relationship...but my concern is the severe flirtation she engages in with him.

Now...as to the objection, "Yeah, that never happens at a bachelor party"--ah...I wouldn't call that a good thing. She's the one going to be married, for goodness sake.

As I said before, she's "using" Atoa in the sense that she's trying to prove to herself that she doesn't need to be bound by the limits she feels are being "imposed" on her by Sirella, Worf, etc.

I'm going to let go for now the question of Atoa's dancing at Jadzia's party and chalk that one up to cultural differences, but my point in bringing up the bachelor party example was that it's an area where very few people bat an eye about men engaging in such behavior.

And I find it reprehensible for the groom to engage in that kind of behavior, as well. This isn't about gender.

Also, speaking of disagreeing with TPTB, this is another area where I depart from... is it Ron Moore?... who said she would have slept with him.

Again, when a grey area appears in canon--when there are blanks that need to be filled, original intent is the safest way to go, until canon contradicts it. I go by original intent--and with all due respect, such supports our assertions about Jadzia.

As far as "using" Atoa - is there ever any indication that he's harmed? That he feels taken advantage of and used? That we wasn't perfectly happy to be the life of the party?

Not at all; that is not the point. Still, I think he shares some responsibility; he knew Jadzia was going to be married, and he allowed the flirtation with no trouble from him.

As I recall, Martok's "scolding" consisted of pointing out his own problems with Sirella--and then saying, "And yet...I love her deeply. We don't choose who we fall in love with."

Martok's point was not that Worf was wrong. His point--and Sisko's--was that, despite those "flaws", they can work together, and be ever stronger, as a couple.

BTW...when Quark announces to Bashir and O'Brien the two respective opinions of Jad and Worf, he says, "You can see the problem!" to which O'Brien responds, "They're both right."

So they're not perfect and they sometimes rub each other the wrong way and they're going to fight and clash sometimes. SHOCK!!!!

Again, it is the source of those flaws that bears scruitiny--and it supports our assertions, therein.

I'm still not seeing how this makes Jadzia a "man-izer."

Well, then, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree....

Any thoughts on Bashir?

As a matter of fact, yes! As I said, it's not a matter of gender. I suppose it's time for a Brilliantly Impassioned Monologue....


Looking at Bashir...well, he strikes me as a man who is somewhat insecure.

One need only watch the first few seasons in particular and get the impression that his flamboyant arrogance was a shield, a defense mechanism to keep from allowing his emotional vulnerabilities to show. Indeed, "Distant Voices" brought his vulnerabilities out for the audience to see. When once connects that with his cockiness--and his seemingly desperate woman-chasing--one can therefore make a connection.

In the first season in particular, I can't help but observe his flamboyance and read in them a certain plea--a plea to be respected for what he's bragging about. He makes it a point to ask O'Brien if he "annoys" the chief--and he is desperate for Jadzia to notice him in the way he wants. And, indeed, it is that which fed his desire to bed women by the bucketload.

As a certain philosopher once wrote:

The man who [subconciously] despises himself tries to gain self-esteem from sexual adventures--which can't be done, since sex is not the cause, but an effect and an expression of a man's sense of his own value.

...Observe the ugly mess which most men make of their sex lives--and observe the mess of contradictions which they hold as their moral philosophy. [Remember Julian's years-long hiding of his personal secrets--his enhancements?]

...So [the woman-chaser] tries, by going through the motions of the effect, to acquire that which should have been the cause. He tries to gain a sense of his own value from the women who surrender to him.... He tells himself that all he's after is physical pleasure--but observe that he tires of his women in a week or a night, that he despises professional whores and that he loves to imagine that he is seducing virtuous girls who make a great exception for his sake.

It is the feeling of achievement that he seeks and never finds.

Therefore, I'd wager that his nagging feeling that he's been living a lie, as it were--continuously desperate to cover up for any evidence that he's enhanced--caused in him a deep lack of self-esteem. Furthermore, his loss of his former love--Palis, the ballet dancer, mentioned in "Armageddon Game"--caused in him even more guilt. (Indeed, he confessed to O'Brien his doubts about whether he could ever feel that kind of love towards anyone again--and earlier, he expressed a very cynical attitude about love, leading up to his confession....) So he tried to cover for this lack of confidence by giving the appearance of over-confidence.

And, trying to get himself to feel as confident as he was expressing, he became a hard-hitting ladies man--yes, a "womanizer"--because of the emotional highs gained through such conquests.

But observe how his arrogance toned down more and more as the series went on. He became more honest with himself--and even his relationships with women showed that, as they became more and more serious as the series went on.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Well then. Guess we have to talk about those two and also decide if we should be projecting her interactions with them back across how she relates to "men in general." WARNING: Long post ahead.

Since we have only this data, we cannot make an argument by silence that the other data (other relationships with men) must be favorable to your position. What we know is what we did see, and it happened not just once (which I would dismiss as an anomaly) but twice.

A not-uncommon theme in such fantasies of course is the hero pursuing the coy but enticing femme fatale who he wears down with his charms and who eventually gives in to his advances. Let's suppose that Dax decided to go along with that role in her relationship with Bashir based on the idea that, like a Kirk or a Riker (when they were actually interested in a girl, not the 1960s stereotype thereof), Bashir wouldn't just give up and in the meantime could gain some maturity and actually grow into the hero he saw himself as. Except he did give up and also, for whatever reason, Dax fell for Worf when he came on the station.

If we were talking about consensual roleplay, of the sort that adults engage in knowing what they are doing, then I would not see anything to object to. There would be, despite appearances, parity. But Bashir's ultimate reaction (to give up) makes it clear he did not know he was playing a game, and as far as he was concerned, he was toyed with over a period of years and then rejected. If Jadzia is indeed as old and experienced as we are told she is, then she should understand the ethics of someone with her age and power manipulating someone who is so clearly unable to cope with it in her level. There is an implicit power relationship here--not quite on the level of, say, teacher-student or boss-employee, but there is a disparity and she took advantage of it when as the older and more experienced party she should have known better rather than manipulating someone susceptible to it, for her amusement.

This is why I find it cruel, or at the very least, "criminally" negligible. (I mean that not in the sense of "against the law," but to imply "willfully reckless disregard.")

So we have to set aside any idea that Jadzia doesn't respect Klingon culture and look specifically at her relationship with Worf - and his relationship with Klingon culture.

As for Klingon culture, I do think that Worf actually does belong with what may be a minority sect among the Klingons, which I suspect he discovered as an adult. That part is below.

But even if we discard that possibility, why does Worf not have a right to be his own being, even if that's different from what others think he "should" be?? Jadzia has no right to criticize him as wrong or make fun of him for adhering to his values and his conscience.

In some ways, if you want to analyze it seriously, it mirrors the difficulties people have who come from a fundamentalist/conservative approach to their heritage/religion and those who come from a position that still highly values all those things, but is more relaxed about them. In some ways, Jadzia was a "better" Klingon than Worf, in that she was able to let her hair down and take part in the more irreverant and "fraternal/sororal" aspects of Klingon culture. Their clashes more often than not were about his stick-in-the-mudness and her efforts to get him to be more open and enjoying of life and expressive towards her and others. And of course to be fair, he would often get upset at the flightiness that a high-energy person with 350 years experience might reasonably be prone to - it's not like either one was perfect.

And my point is, if Jadzia is indeed going to make that sort of value judgment--that she is the "superior Klingon" to Worf, and not accept him on his own terms, and decide that he should be another way, rather than what he is, then she is not approaching the relationship from a position of respect. If she would rather have a Viking than a samurai (which I think are the best comparisons for how, say, Martok and Worf each approach being a Klingon), she shouldn't try to remake him into her desired image. His strict following of the Klingon bushidō code is a minority approach, but I would not say it is unheard of in Klingon society. There is no proof that it is wrong. (The monks of Boreth being the best comparison...though I use the term "monk" loosely since I have not seen any evidence one way or the other that celibacy is or is not required for such devotees.)

And even if it is not what most Klingons practice, he has every right to practice his faith as his conscience tells him without being cast as an inferior.

As to why they didn't just dump each other? Well, you don't exactly choose who to fall in love with, and you work through such things.

You can't choose who you're physically attracted to, for sure, but it's possible to step back and look at the potential compatibility of a relationship without taking that into consideration, and not pursue a relationship that is ultimately not a compatible one. Sometimes that means giving up the physical/romantic companionship that might seem like fun in the moment, if there is a lack of compatibility that will lead to heartache in the long run. It's not easy to do when blinded by attraction, but quite doable if you make the effort.

But I don't believe either example can be taken as strong evidence for generally "using" or disrespecting men. Yeah, she's a bit arrogant, I'll concede that one freely, but not overbearingly so.

Indeed. Kira's "brokenness" is (to a traditional mindset especially) a very attractive - and very old - character model where the woman's "strength" comes not from being integrated and at ease with herself, but from a need to discard traditional mores in order to survive in a world that's violated her. But if she hadn't been victimized, she'd be a lot more traditional. Kira also is very, very steeped in her religion and draws strength from it, which is attractive to me, but is also a very "traditional" character trait.

I don't think that's fair at all to discard her as broken or as "damaged goods." She had a rough past, but that is not all there is to her.

That also discards the idea of such integration being possible for her; this "criticism" (which I find undeserved anyway) would only be valid if we saw her not grow as a person. I think we saw her work towards that over time. I think there was still some distance to keep going at the end of the series, but the trajectory was quite obvious, to my mind.

I also don't think that a character should be considered less because of her faith or that she did have a rough past.

 

[iguana_tonante]

First of all, I am absolutely baffled at how much some comments seems so be spectacularly stuck-up about sex, relationships, or simply human interactions. Having lunch with an ex is justifiable reason to be angry and jealous, having fun at a party is "steamy", chatting with a guy is "severe flirtation", having sex is "using people"... Good grief, guys. I'm having flashbacks from 50s.

Martok's point was not that Worf was wrong. His point--and Sisko's--was that, despite those "flaws", they can work together, and be ever stronger, as a couple.

BTW...when Quark announces to Bashir and O'Brien the two respective opinions of Jad and Worf, he says, "You can see the problem!" to which O'Brien responds, "They're both right."

Which was exactly my point, so I don't know why you are repeating it as if it was your own idea.

iguana...the point of my question is that I am not claiming that my POV is "objective fact" any more--or less--than you are.

Really? Because I seem to remember your defence in the Sisko analogy was "don't shoot the messenger for pointing out the truth!" Beside that, you are basing your own interpretation on the character of Jadzia on your own impressions and opinions, so I don't see why you get all offended when I apply the same reasoning to your comments.

And once again, I ask for a connection--and I, and I would imagine the readers as well, will not be satisfied with, "If you can't see the connection for yourself, then you must be stubborn and thickheaded".

Eventually, you reach the point when you can't explain things even further beside pointing them out. If you can't see it, well, you can't see it. I've done all I can reasonably do.

But if more than a few people keep saying something like that about you, it won't be unthinkable for someone to start questioning why they perceive you as such. We must always be wary of our own unconscious bias and prejudices.

So the more voices saying something, the more likely it is to be true?

Majority opinion does not truth make, sir--as Socrates (champion of challenging popular mindsets) knew well....

So, are you saying that if more than a few people were to express their concern about your behaviour because it made them uncomfortable, you would never question the appropriateness of your behaviour? Are you so utterly and adamantly convinced that you can't be in the wrong that you refuse to consider the opinions and perceptions of others? Well, there goes your claim to be "not claiming that my POV is objective fact".

(and really, are you comparing yourself to Socrates? )

As a certain philosopher once wrote:

If you are to quote Ayn Rand, you should at least be honest about her job.

But even if we discard that possibility, why does Worf not have a right to be his own being, even if that's different from what others think he "should" be?? Jadzia has no right to criticize him as wrong or make fun of him for adhering to his values and his conscience.

Now, that's silly. Of course people have a right to criticize people and make fun of them for whatever reason. People are free to believe what they want, but they are not somehow magically protected from criticism and mockery about it.

Indeed. Kira's "brokenness" is (to a traditional mindset especially) a very attractive - and very old - character model where the woman's "strength" comes not from being integrated and at ease with herself, but from a need to discard traditional mores in order to survive in a world that's violated her.

I don't think that's fair at all to discard her as broken or as "damaged goods." She had a rough past, but that is not all there is to her.

That also discards the idea of such integration being possible for her; this "criticism" (which I find undeserved anyway) would only be valid if we saw her not grow as a person. I think we saw her work towards that over time. I think there was still some distance to keep going at the end of the series, but the trajectory was quite obvious, to my mind.

Congrats for completely missing the point about narrative archetypes and going for the inconsequential tangent.

if Jadzia is indeed going to make that sort of value judgment--that she is the "superior Klingon" to Worf, (...)

And even if it is not what most Klingons practice, [Worf] has every right to practice his faith as his conscience tells him without being cast as an inferior (...)

I also don't think that [Kira] should be considered less because of her faith or that she did have a rough past.

Oh for fuck's sake. Nobody is "casting them as inferior" or "belittling them". No one is doing that. You can disagree with someone without feeling the need to oppress and persecute them, you know. Your posts gain nothing from such defensiveness.

 

[Thestral]

Righto then, I'll be responding to all this... shortly. May take a bit of time though.

 

[Rush Limborg]

First of all, I am absolutely baffled at how much some comments seems so be spectacularly stuck-up about sex, relationships, or simply human interactions. Having lunch with an ex is justifiable reason to be angry and jealous, having fun at a party is "steamy", chatting with a guy is "severe flirtation", having sex is "using people"... Good grief, guys. I'm having flashbacks from 50s.

And I am absolutley baffled at your stubborn adherence to the idea that people who have a more negative interperetation of Jadzia's character are sexists who want to suppress women's rights.

Martok's point was not that Worf was wrong. His point--and Sisko's--was that, despite those "flaws", they can work together, and be ever stronger, as a couple.

BTW...when Quark announces to Bashir and O'Brien the two respective opinions of Jad and Worf, he says, "You can see the problem!" to which O'Brien responds, "They're both right."

Which was exactly my point, so I don't know why you are repeating it as if it was your own idea.

Perhaps it is the context of our individual points which are original...? I used that point to prove my POV--and you used it to prove yours.

iguana...the point of my question is that I am not claiming that my POV is "objective fact" any more--or less--than you are.

Really? Because I seem to remember your defence in the Sisko analogy was "don't shoot the messenger for pointing out the truth!"

I believe I said don't shoot the messanger if it were true. If it were not true, then shooting could well be warranted. If it were a matter of shades of grey--well, shooting the messanger is uncalled for, as well, I should think.

Now, tell me: do you ever see any of us attacking those who see Ezri as "whiny" and "annoying" as sexist, as people who wish to belittle women who don't behave the way they want?

Beside that, you are basing your own interpretation on the character of Jadzia on your own impressions and opinions, so I don't see why you get all offended when I apply the same reasoning to your comments.

The difference, sir, is that you are accusing me and others of sexism and wishing to suppress women. Jadzia is a fictional character--limited by the constraints of fiction. Discussions of her, and her character, are based on theory.

We, on the other hand, are not fictional characters. Thus, it is a more serious matter to make charges against us.

So, are you saying that if more than a few people were to express their concern about your behaviour because it made them uncomfortable, you would never question the appropriateness of your behaviour?

I would--provided it were explained to me in a reasonable, rational manner, as opposed to "I can't explain it, you obviously are too stubborn to understand."

Are you so utterly and adamantly convinced that you can't be in the wrong that you refuse to consider the opinions and perceptions of others?

What I refuse to consider, iguana, is vitriolic accusations of my alleged desire to "suppress" others--without rational explanation or justification.

(and really, are you comparing yourself to Socrates? )

Yes, I am.

If you are to quote Ayn Rand, you should at least be honest about her job.

She was both a philosopher and a writer--as you should be aware, if you're going to be like that....

Eventually, you reach the point when you can't explain things even further beside pointing them out. If you can't see it, well, you can't see it. I've done all I can reasonably do.

Well--I repeat that sentiment to you, then. We thus agree to disagree?

 

[iguana_tonante]

And I am absolutley baffled at your stubborn adherence to the idea that people who have a more negative interperetation of Jadzia's character are sexists who want to suppress women's rights.

First of all, I didn't accuse anyone to "wishing to suppress" anything. What I said was that some very negative judgements of the character of Jadzia were influence by a backward attitute about gender roles.

Which was exactly my point, so I don't know why you are repeating it as if it was your own idea.

Perhaps it is the context of our individual points which are original...?

wut?

I believe I said don't shoot the messanger if it were true. If it were not true, then shooting could well be warranted. If it were a matter of shades of grey--well, shooting the messanger is uncalled for, as well, I should think.

Well, at least now you are admitting judgement of character is about "shades of grey". It's an improvement already.

Now, tell me: do you ever see any of us attacking those who see Ezri as "whiny" and "annoying" as sexist, as people who wish to belittle women who don't behave the way they want?

Obviously not, because criticism of Ezri's whinyness is not rooted in a Victorian view of women's roles and attitudes. Find something else to suit your purposes: hating girls with short hair, I dunno.

Jadzia is a fictional character--limited by the constraints of fiction. Discussions of her, and her character, are based on theory.

We, on the other hand, are not fictional characters. Thus, it is a more serious matter to make charges against us.

I argue facts and figures. Opinions and arguments. Reason and emotion. Never people. Beside, for all I know, you can be a figment of my imagination. (Well, let's hope not, or I am going to be worried...)

Well--I repeat that sentiment to you, then. We thus agree to disagree?

Yes, I agree we disagree.

I would--provided it were explained to me in a reasonable, rational manner, as opposed to "I can't explain it, you obviously are too stubborn to understand."

What I refuse to consider, iguana, is vitriolic accusations of my alleged desire to "suppress" others--without rational explanation or justification.

I though it was clear, but let's try again.

People have argued that Jadzia was "arrogant", "self-absorbed", "ball-busting", "hard-charging", "gung-ho", "disrespectful", "aloof", "loose", "manipulative", "uppity", "bitchy", "know-it-all", "condescending", "vapid", etc.

Now, I and others saw nothing of the sort in the character. In fact, I would describe her as "self-assured", "collected", "free-spirited", "irreverent", etc.

It follows that the former assertions could not be a string of objective facts, but on the contrary a bunch of personal opinions. Personal opinions are funny, because by their very nature are inextricably rooted in the fundamental beliefs of the people formulating it.

So, such strongly-expressed negative opinions against a character who displays traits (self-confidence, competence, competitiveness, sexual freedom, etc.) that I consider expressions of women's liberation and emancipation, brings me to think that such vehement opinions are rooted in some strong-held beliefs about rigidly-defined gender roles, an adherence to more traditional dynamic between the men and women, and a disapproval of the recent trends in society about women's role.

I cannot believe I had to spell it out for you.

(and really, are you comparing yourself to Socrates? )

Yes, I am.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

If you are to quote Ayn Rand, you should at least be honest about her job.

She was both a philosopher and a writer--as you should be aware, if you're going to be like that....

But I guess you are allowed your own fantasies.