Pick-A-Dax

[Rush Limborg]

Really? I tend to think of it as great that we don't endorse a societal double-standard and eschew promiscuity.

And that's good. But I hardly think using such vehement terminology is an effective means for invoking change in societal standards.

So, then, are you against Jadzia's escapades, as well?

Frankly, I can't find myself able to listen to M's asking, "Are we equals, 007?" without mutteting in a Daniel Craig voice, "No, ma'am. You're my boss."

Then you really don't get what it was about.

I know what the point of the clip was, sir. I also know that the fact that M--a woman--is Bond's boss kinda makes the whole thing terribly ironic.

 

[DimesDan]

Frankly, I can't find myself able to listen to M's asking, "Are we equals, 007?" without mutteting in a Daniel Craig voice, "No, ma'am. You're my boss."

Then you really don't get what it was about.

No he doesn't. But being a young white American who believes in the Republican way of life and believes that a woman who enjoys sex makes her a whore, it isn't exactly surprising is it?

Women aren't equals and as that video said until the answer is yes, we mustn't stop asking.

On a lighter note, Daniel Craig in drag was good yet random to see.

 

[Darth Duck]

Really? I tend to think of it as great that we don't endorse a societal double-standard and eschew promiscuity.

And that's good. But I hardly think using such vehement terminology is an effective means for invoking change in societal standards.

So, then, are you against Jadzia's escapades, as well?

I think this talk of her escapades is overblown.

 

[Thestral]

As for Jadzia--she has quite a few relationships with men. Captain Boday--the "trainer" in "Playing God"--the fire-dancer from "You Are Cordially Invited"...

Congrats, you've come up with three examples, four if you count Worf, in 6 years.

Except it was a random alien in "Playing God" and nothing happened with the fire-dancer from "You Are Cordially Invited," so that's actually three if you count Worf. Which was no more than Kira.

Also, there's no indication in any of those of "using" men.

No he doesn't. But being a young white American who believes in the Republican way of life and believes that a woman who enjoys sex makes her a whore, it isn't exactly surprising is it?

Whoa there...

 

[Rush Limborg]

Really? I tend to think of it as great that we don't endorse a societal double-standard and eschew promiscuity.

And that's good. But I hardly think using such vehement terminology is an effective means for invoking change in societal standards.

So, then, are you against Jadzia's escapades, as well?

I think this talk of her escapades is overblown.

And I think references to either Kirk or Jadzia being "sluts" or "whores" is overblown, to put it mildly.

But it's the internet. "Overblown" seems to be the norm, these days.

 

[Rush Limborg]

As for Jadzia--she has quite a few relationships with men. Captain Boday--the "trainer" in "Playing God"--the fire-dancer from "You Are Cordially Invited"...

Congrats, you've come up with three examples, four if you count Worf, in 6 years.

(Takes a bow.)

Except it was a random alien in "Playing God"--

Random, mind you.

and nothing happened with the fire-dancer from "You Are Cordially Invited," so that's actually three if you count Worf. Which was no more than Kira.

Actually, wasn't there an implication to the effect that they'd been involved previously?

Furthermore, the very suggestive nature of her interaction with the fire-dancer frankly gives me pause--especially considering her engagement with Worf....

As for Kira--her relationships with Bareil and Shakaar were both long-term, born out of great mutual admiration and (in the second case, at least) deep frienship.

Also, there's no indication in any of those of "using" men.

She seemed to be "using" the fire-dancer for purposes of proving to herself that she doesn't have to succomb to Sirella's strictness.

And the morning after, at least, she "used" the "trainer" as a way of psyching out the student, as I recall.

But the big example I see of her "using" men is one who she did not have a relationship with, per se--Bashir. In "The Alternate", she teases Bashir with the idea of a drink--makes him look foolish, and walks off, leaving the good doctor to mutter, "She enjoys it. She takes a perverse pleasure in it...."

In "Starship Down", when Bashir tells her that he's long since finished "fantasizing" about her, she acts disappointed--and Bashir calls her out on it.

Now...considering how she swore up and down that she had no feelings for him throughout the first season--and then, we keep seeing examples of her enjoying the teasing of him in that manner, to say nothing of her dissapointment when she realizes he's over her--I think we can safely say she was "using" him for her own amusement.

No he doesn't. But being a young white American who believes in the Republican way of life and believes that a woman who enjoys sex makes her a whore, it isn't exactly surprising is it?

Whoa there...

Indeed. Now things have officially crossed over into the uncivil realm of baiting and trolling. *sigh*

 

[Darth Duck]

And that's good. But I hardly think using such vehement terminology is an effective means for invoking change in societal standards.

So, then, are you against Jadzia's escapades, as well?

I think this talk of her escapades is overblown.

And I think references to either Kirk or Jadzia being "sluts" or "whores" is overblown, to put it mildly.

But it's the internet. "Overblown" seems to be the norm, these days.

But "womanizer" and "manizer" are fine and dandy?

 

[Rush Limborg]

^For lack of better terms. I'm not particulatly comfortable with "men's lady", as opposed to "ladies' man"--but if you prefer that...?

 

[Darth Duck]

They're loaded terms, Rush. They're a nice, PC way of saying "gets around" or "slut."

 

[Rush Limborg]

*sigh* Then what would you prefer--assuming that's true?

(Sheesh. "Loaded" terms--"code" terms--look, as someone who makes it a point to regularly condemn PC--I know PC when I see it. In this case, "PC" is the very labeling of things as "code terms", and expecting everyone else to be offended by the term, too.)

 

[Darth Duck]

Assuming? Merriam-Webster's definition of "Womanizer: " a man given to seducing women.

Call a spade a spade, or in this a slut.

Though given the few examples you've come up with, manizer and slut would be overblown, either that or I'm a slut.

 

[Thestral]

Except it was a random alien in "Playing God"--

Random, mind you.

Random to us. I don't have the episode in front of me, but we don't know that he and Jadzia haven't seen each other before. This is three episodes before Captain Boday is ever mentioned. And for that matter, who cares if he was?

and nothing happened with the fire-dancer from "You Are Cordially Invited," so that's actually three if you count Worf. Which was no more than Kira.

Actually, wasn't there an implication to the effect that they'd been involved previously?

Great, so you've got another entry to the list of "people Jadzia's been with" but no idea just how far back it goes. It may have been 10 years ago when they were both Ensigns or students at the Academy.

Furthermore, the very suggestive nature of her interaction with the fire-dancer frankly gives me pause--especially considering her engagement with Worf....

As for Kira--her relationships with Bareil and Shakaar were both long-term, born out of great mutual admiration and (in the second case, at least) deep frienship.

Because as we all know, bachelor parties never involve anything suggestive.

My point with Kira was that she has as many known encounters on-screen as Jadzia, but nobody ever ever accuses her of being a "man-izer."

But the big example I see of her "using" men is one who she did not have a relationship with, per se--Bashir. In "The Alternate", she teases Bashir with the idea of a drink--makes him look foolish, and walks off, leaving the good doctor to mutter, "She enjoys it. She takes a perverse pleasure in it...."

In "Starship Down", when Bashir tells her that he's long since finished "fantasizing" about her, she acts disappointed--and Bashir calls her out on it.

Now...considering how she swore up and down that she had no feelings for him throughout the first season--and then, we keep seeing examples of her enjoying the teasing of him in that manner, to say nothing of her dissapointment when she realizes he's over her--I think we can safely say she was "using" him for her own amusement.

The relationship between Jadzia Dax and Julian Bashir is rather more complicated than the perception of her as "loose" and trying to draw that in is IMO a misreading.

 

[DimesDan]

No he doesn't. But being a young white American who believes in the Republican way of life and believes that a woman who enjoys sex makes her a whore, it isn't exactly surprising is it?

Whoa there...

Indeed. Now things have officially crossed over into the uncivil realm of baiting and trolling. *sigh*

Not really. I was just explaining why you and probably others like you have that mindset and why, even though yes in a fictional construct M as a woman is Bonds boss, what she says in that video has some far reaching and questions that need to be addressed.

I see you don't deny what I said though and accusing someone of trolling, that's against the rules right?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Well, she the one who just assumes justifications that do not exist, and perhaps it is annoying that posters are insting that anyone who would dare like Ezri over Jazdia thinks women "should be in the kitchen" as some would say. Posters have stated many reasons, such as they find Jazdia arrogant, that the KPG gets old, or that they like Jazdia, but REALLY like Ezri. yet some posters are insisting that our real reasons are that we don't like strong women.

I don't get why you are so worked up about this. We are clearly not talking about your posts. Nobody is picking up on you, yet you are desperate for a fight: I'm sorry, you are not getting one from me. Also, you may want to remember some ancient words of wisdom: excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta.

How the heck the criticisms of her which iguana listed, criticizing her personality (not her freedom, mind you) could be simplified as "she doesn't know her place" is a mystery.

Life must be full on mystery for you, then.

Re: Distorted Humor's Sisko analogy (sorry I forgot to quote): if people were saying they *never* cared for Sisko because he poisoned a Maquis planet, it would deserve some serious eyebrow raising, because then it begs the question of why didn't they like Sisko beforehand? But if they said "I never cared for Sisko after poisoning..." they'd have a legit point.

However, if their "reasons" also included

because he's disrespectful towards white officers
because he's always angry and grumpy
he's an arrogant know-it-all
etc., etc.

it would also deserve some eyebrow raising.

Yep. But I expect your reasoning to fly completely over Rush's head.

Then you're lost in the confusion, sir--because I don't.

I'm pretty sure iguana's not the one who's confused here.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not.

I am informed that the traditional reply to "Am not" would be "Are too", but I don't think anything useful could come from keeping this up.

However, if their "reasons" also included

because he's disrespectful towards white officers
because he's always angry and grumpy
he's an arrogant know-it-all
etc., etc.

it would also deserve some eyebrow raising.

Provided, of course, those accusations were not true. In Sisko's case, those accusations are absolutely not true. If they were--well, don't shoot the messenger for pointing out the truth!

So you are arguing that Jadzia is objectively "arrogant", "manipulative", "self-absorbed", "disrespectful", "bitchy know-it-all", "condescending", "vapid", "promiscuous", etc.? Objective, true facts, written in stone, no personal opinions or room for disagreement? Wow.

True? You're talking about your subjectivity being true? I think we're coming to the centre of the problem right there.

Yeah, it's pretty baffling actually.

Also, I have to laugh at the attempts to characterize Jadzia as a someone who had "quite a few relationships with men": three/four partners in six years? Wow, what a "man-izer"!

 

[Rush Limborg]

Whoa there...

Indeed. Now things have officially crossed over into the uncivil realm of baiting and trolling. *sigh*

Not really. I was just explaining why you and probably others like you have that mindset and why, even though yes in a fictional construct M as a woman is Bonds boss, what she says in that video has some far reaching and questions that need to be addressed.

I see you don't deny what I said though and accusing someone of trolling, that's against the rules right?

I was clearly not referring to that--and you know it:

No he doesn't. But being a young white American who believes in the Republican way of life and believes that a woman who enjoys sex makes her a whore, it isn't exactly surprising is it?

You don't see a problem with this?

Well, she the one who just assumes justifications that do not exist, and perhaps it is annoying that posters are insting that anyone who would dare like Ezri over Jazdia thinks women "should be in the kitchen" as some would say. Posters have stated many reasons, such as they find Jazdia arrogant, that the KPG gets old, or that they like Jazdia, but REALLY like Ezri. yet some posters are insisting that our real reasons are that we don't like strong women.

I don't get why you are so worked up about this. We are clearly not talking about your posts. Nobody is picking up on you, yet you are desperate for a fight: I'm sorry, you are not getting one from me. Also, you may want to remember some ancient words of wisdom: excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta.

Than who are you picking on? Distorted Humor understands the absurdity of your accusations--and is offended by them, whether you intended to include him in them or not.

Provided, of course, those accusations were not true. In Sisko's case, those accusations are absolutely not true. If they were--well, don't shoot the messenger for pointing out the truth!

So you are arguing that Jadzia is objectively "arrogant", "manipulative", "self-absorbed", "disrespectful", "bitchy know-it-all", "condescending", "vapid", "promiscuous", etc.? Objective, true facts, written in stone, no personal opinions or room for disagreement? Wow.

I would imagine you don't feel your accusations of sexism to be "objective, true facts, written in stone", with "no personal opinions or room for disagreement."

I do not assert that these claims are necessarily objective, or not open to question. But do not claim for a moment that such opinions are objectively false. Consider:

True? You're talking about your subjectivity being true? I think we're coming to the centre of the problem right there.

Yeah, it's pretty baffling actually.

Also, I have to laugh at the attempts to characterize Jadzia as a someone who had "quite a few relationships with men": three/four partners in six years? Wow, what a "man-izer"!

Once again--it is the attitude we see conveyed concerning those relationships.

Further, consider Worf's description of Jadzia to Martok in "You Are Cordially Invited".

I could go on--but if the argument is to be continued along these lines--

How the heck the criticisms of her which iguana listed, criticizing her personality (not her freedom, mind you) could be simplified as "she doesn't know her place" is a mystery.

Life must be full on mystery for you, then.

Yep. But I expect your reasoning to fly completely over Rush's head.

I am informed that the traditional reply to "Am not" would be "Are too", but I don't think anything useful could come from keeping this up.

--then it looks to me as if my attempts to reason with you are futile. Once again, I ask how you make that sort of connection--and instead of explaining, my request is mocked.

I personally suspect that it is because there is no reasonable connection--and that your statements are purely emotional.

I have expressed time and time again that I would have no problem with having Jadzia Dax as a friend. As I have said, she would be very fun to be around. I, and Nerys (who, again, is NOT a man, let alone a man who wants to "suppress" women), and Shran simply prefer Ezri better.

Shran and Nerys may have more a problem with Jadzia than I do; you'll have to take it up with them.

But if you are going to resort to mockery to "debate" me--than I see no reason to continue this discussion. I'll post more in this thread when and if the moods here have toned down.

Good night and good luck.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think it's par for the course, iguana, if anyone suggests the justification for their preferences sound a little suspect. There's nothing wrong with finding one character more appealing than another, in fact that's what an awful lot of threads on this board are all about. I'm quite happy with people saying Ezri is immensely more appealing/sexier/more fun to them than Jadzia (or vice versa, since Jadzia seems to be winning) because that's a natural human response. It's the justification some people are giving for this preference that is interesting.

But I wonder, if people didn't know that some of the people who said they preferred Ezri were men, if that would change the kinds of comments made towards them.

I certainly have no agenda for wanting women weakened or held back, but I prefer Ezri and prefer the way she treats men too. Quite simply, I think that if I want to be treated with respect as a woman, then I should treat men with respect too, because we are human beings (or in Trek, Trill beings and Bajoran beings, etc.) and all have an equal right to dignity. I do not think I have any need to suspect men like Rush Limborg or Shran or Distorted Humor of misogynism. Nor have I ever been disrespected or treated as unequal by them. Their conduct towards me speaks for itself.

I do not see what is so controversial about the idea of not playing with or manipulating other people's feelings, especially romantic feelings. I hated the fact that Kirk treated women that way, and I find it no more excusable when Jadzia Dax does it. It's not funny or appealing to me to see that. I wouldn't trust someone in any kind of relationship, romantic or non-romantic, if I knew they got their kicks from toying with people that way. As far as I'm concerned, what's bad for the goose is bad for the gander, too.

Respect towards others is a universal virtue, and I don't care for seeing the lack of it. When I see that, it removes the possibility of romance (if I were considering dating a man), or the possibility of friendship (if I were considering being friends with a woman). If I see that in one part of someone's life, I have no guarantee that same behavior won't cross into working relationships or friendships too.

An interesting point was made about the fact that Kira has had multiple relationships and even one-night stands. I never saw any signs that she treated Bareil as someone to manipulate, or Shakaar, or Odo. There was always a relationship as equals, where both the male and female were strong together. No sense of disparity, attacks on each other's values, etc. Hence, I respect her more. I would feel more confident in a friendship with her, too, based on that.

 

[Thestral]

So, what Rush, yer just going to ignore my last bits?

Also,

Once again--it is the attitude we see conveyed concerning those relationships.

Further, consider Worf's description of Jadzia to Martok in "You Are Cordially Invited".

Alright then, tell us about the attitudes we see conveyed concerning her relationships with

random-to-us Playing God alien
Captain Boday (who we never saw)
Manuele Atoa (perhaps, and definitely in the past)
Worf


Also, Worf's description of Jadzia? Would that be when they're personally on the outs and he's not thinking clearly?

 

[Kestra]

I, and Nerys (who, again, is NOT a man, let alone a man who wants to "suppress" women), and Shran simply prefer Ezri better.

You know, I wasn't going to post again in this thread but I do want to address this. One of the things I was trying to convey is the notion of Ezri falling in line with more traditional, or stereotyped roles of femininity as opposed to Jadzia. It's one of the things I believe is reflected in those who would choose Ezri as opposed to Jadzia in terms of a partner. Now, you don't have to be a man to promote those types of roles. Women also can have ideas about how other women should be. I'm not saying that's the case in this particular situation, but trotting out the "a woman agrees with me!" as a defense is missing some of the main points.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't feel that Rush is using me, in the slightest. What I think people are missing in this discussion is the idea that respect is not a gendered virtue.

 

[Thestral]

^ Well then I'm sure you can address for me the questions I have regarding her "respect for men."

You know, I wasn't going to post again in this thread but I do want to address this. One of the things I was trying to convey is the notion of Ezri falling in line with more traditional, or stereotyped roles of femininity as opposed to Jadzia. It's one of the things I believe is reflected in those who would choose Ezri as opposed to Jadzia in terms of a partner. Now, you don't have to be a man to promote those types of roles. Women also can have ideas about how other women should be. I'm not saying that's the case in this particular situation, but trotting out the "a woman agrees with me!" as a defense is missing some of the main points.

Thank you for pointing this out - well said!