Picard's atheism?

[Crewman6]

"Who Watches the Watchers" is the single most convincing bit of evidence to Picard's atheism.

But, yeah, there is inconsistency throughout the series.

In "Chain of Command", for instance, he admires the Cardassian's "spiritual life," and echoes similar sentiments on other occasions.

 

[Kirkman1987]

I think the large majority of humans in the ST universe are atheist. There's a little evidence on both sides, but I feel the Humanist viewpoints and liberal political philosophy showcased on the shows makes me opt to think that religion is respected, but not widely practiced by 24th century humans.

 

[TheGodBen]

The period I studied in England a few hundred years ago was a time when people in general had decided there was no god, and therefore were doing whatever they wanted hang the consequences to others.

Since I am not a historian I cannot verify or deny your claim, but I do take objection to the idea that morality stems from fear of punishment from a god. Firstly, it isn't very moral if the only reason you have for being good is that you don't want to be punished. Secondly, as somebody who doesn't believe in a god and who knows many other people who don't believe in a god, I know that morality does not require a god. I am a moral person and I do moral things because it feels good to do the right thing and I feel guilty when I do an immoral thing.

Plus, modern day statistics have found that atheists tend to lead more moral lives than Christians. Divorces rates for atheists are lower than divorce rates among Christians. The atheist prison population in the US is proportionately much lower than the Christian prison population. Violent crime rates in Europe are much lower than the US even though the atheist/non-religious population here is around 40%, while in the US it is roughly 12%.

I'm not saying that Christians are inherently immoral, I'm just saying that atheists are not.

Huh, I always thought being Agnostic meant that you did believe in God but you didn't believe or practice any existing faith.

Yes, that would be an agnostic weak-theist, a person who believes in a god of some form but doesn't know what that god is like. The whole thing is very confusing when it comes to the terminology.

 

[Deckerd]

The period I studied in England a few hundred years ago was a time when people in general had decided there was no god, and therefore were doing whatever they wanted hang the consequences to others.

Smells like pish to me.

 

[Marie1]

I'll need to dig up notes from when I started my Arts degree- that may take a while since it was years ago. But I do remember my prof. saying it because lets face it- thats pretty shocking. I'll never forget the look on her face, especially given the deaths of so many children.

But OT, I'm not sure I've see Picard say anything about his own religious beliefs, but he had encountered and therefore obviously believed in more powerful beings. So did Sisko, even if he didn't believe that the Prophets were divine, and neither do I. But if that got them through the hard times, so be it. I imagine Picard valued diversity and respected people's beliefs, as all people should, whether they believe in them or not. There cannot be peace if there is not respect.

 

[Timo]

However, is it religion if one believes in a verifiably existing higher being? The Bajorans believing in the Prophets was no different from the Americans believing in the IRS, really: the higher force does exist, and does affect their lives in tangible ways, and can respond to prayers at times (although normally it doesn't bother).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deckerd]

Except there is no punishment for the Bajorans not believing in the prophets.

However, I see your point. The prophets are not a leap of faith, therefore can they really be called a religion?

 

[cultcross]

"Who Watches the Watchers" is the single most convincing bit of evidence to Picard's atheism.

But, yeah, there is inconsistency throughout the series.

In "Chain of Command", for instance, he admires the Cardassian's "spiritual life," and echoes similar sentiments on other occasions.

Agreed. In fact, from a general watch through of TNG I've done recently, Who Watches the Watchers is a real anomaly. Speaking perhaps more to the writer's sentiments than Picard's. Which only really serves to increase my intense dislike of the episode. Picard is written as not only preachy, stuck up and arrogant, but now out of character as well.

Picard's more consistent view through the series is that while he is not himself religious, he acknowledges and values spirituality in others and sometimes in himself. Even in Devil's Due he deliberately steers clear of bashing the planet's religion or mythology as a tactic.

 

[The Badger]

Well, before the discovery of the Wormhole aliens, there was little verifiable evidence that the Prophets existed. Certainly there were the Orbs, but I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, that the average Bajoran in the street would have had access to them. So prior to Sisko's meeting them, was there any real tangible proof of the Prophets' existence?

 

[Marie1]

The period I studied in England a few hundred years ago was a time when people in general had decided there was no god, and therefore were doing whatever they wanted hang the consequences to others.

Since I am not a historian I cannot verify or deny your claim, but I do take objection to the idea that morality stems from fear of punishment from a god. Firstly, it isn't very moral if the only reason you have for being good is that you don't want to be punished. Secondly, as somebody who doesn't believe in a god and who knows many other people who don't believe in a god, I know that morality does not require a god. I am a moral person and I do moral things because it feels good to do the right thing and I feel guilty when I do an immoral thing.

I never said that "morality stems from fear of punishment from a god" in any way shape or form. The very notion is ridiculous and hypocritical whether someone believes in God or not. In fact, most of the "Christians" I know are anything but when it comes to following anything in the Bible, which I've read several times. Some of the people I know who are atheists are nicer than the ones who do believe in God.
I've studied quite a bit of the early Christianity- and a lot of it is what we find today in Christian beliefs- it doesn't sink up with the Bible either. But I find the history interesting.

My point is that in England a few hundred years ago, people rebelled against their Christian beliefs and went into the outfield. They threw all respect for life, morality etc. out the window, and the results were devastating. If they had decided that there was no God, and yet maintained a moral standard, had at least maintained that murder and rape etc. were wrong, would things have been as bad? Of course not. But they didn't. Do I believe that atheists are a bunch of murdering, thieves? Of course not. I've never said that people without God/Religion don't have any morals.

Plus, modern day statistics have found that atheists tend to lead more moral lives than Christians. Divorces rates for atheists are lower than divorce rates among Christians. The atheist prison population in the US is proportionately much lower than the Christian prison population. Violent crime rates in Europe are much lower than the US even though the atheist/non-religious population here is around 40%, while in the US it is roughly 12%.

I'm not saying that Christians are inherently immoral, I'm just saying that atheists are not.

^ Your final statement hits it on the nose.

In fact, I'm not surprised at all- look at all the wrong done in the name of religion! By people who profess to believe in God, to people who believe (which I don't) that for ____ and ____ they'll go to some burning Hell place with pitch forks. Or the people who thought they can buy there way out!

Out of curiosity, innocent curiosity!! How do you get Christian/Atheist prison stats? Do you know if a "Christian" in those stats is practicing or just saying they are because there parents were or something? I guess thats a little impossible.

 

[iguana_tonante]

The period I studied in England a few hundred years ago was a time when people in general had decided there was no god, and therefore were doing whatever they wanted hang the consequences to others.

Never heard of it. Where did you get that stuff from?

 

[TheGodBen]

Out of curiosity, innocent curiosity!! How do you get Christian/Atheist prison stats? Do you know if a "Christian" in those stats is practicing or just saying they are because there parents were or something? I guess thats a little impossible.

My stats came from this this video on Youtube. The stats about prison data originally came from this website.

Since I saw the video about two months ago it has been annotated to remove those statistics as he is currently looking for a "better source". If you look at the source you can see that it is from 1997, so it is out of date by 12 years. Since this is the case, I will withdraw my earlier statement about the atheist population being proportionately low in US prisons as there is no accurate source on the subject for the present time.

 

[Marie1]

The period I studied in England a few hundred years ago was a time when people in general had decided there was no god, and therefore were doing whatever they wanted hang the consequences to others.

Never heard of it. Where did you get that stuff from?

As stated a bit above, it was discussed in a university course I took a couple of years ago.

Out of curiosity, innocent curiosity!! How do you get Christian/Atheist prison stats? Do you know if a "Christian" in those stats is practicing or just saying they are because there parents were or something? I guess thats a little impossible.

My stats came from this this video on Youtube. The stats about prison data originally came from this website.

Since I saw the video about two months ago it has been annotated to remove those statistics as he is currently looking for a "better source". If you look at the source you can see that it is from 1997, so it is out of date by 12 years. Since this is the case, I will withdraw my earlier statement about the atheist population being proportionately low in US prisons as there is no accurate source on the subject for the present time.

Or maybe your argument will get stronger when he gets his new stats.
I can't believe 97 is 12 years ago... I feel so old!
Thanks for the links.

 

[iguana_tonante]

The period I studied in England a few hundred years ago was a time when people in general had decided there was no god, and therefore were doing whatever they wanted hang the consequences to others.

Never heard of it. Where did you get that stuff from?

As stated a bit above, it was discussed in a university course I took a couple of years ago.

Sorry, my question should have been: where did the lecturer take that stuff from? I've never heard of it.

My nose tells me that maybe it was a minuscule cult or fringe out in the woods, and that information was blown out of proportion by a teacher with an agenda.

 

[Marie1]

Never heard of it. Where did you get that stuff from?

As stated a bit above, it was discussed in a university course I took a couple of years ago.

Sorry, my question should have been: where did the lecturer take that stuff from? I've never heard of it.

My nose tells me that maybe it was a minuscule cult or fringe out in the woods, and that information was blown out of proportion by a teacher with an agenda.

I believe we were using one of the Norton Anthologies of Literature if that helps.

But London, England isn't a minuscule cult or fringe. And my prof has been teaching and studying for that class for years and years. I trust her. And its recent enough that liturature exists as such, not far enough back that we're relying on translations of oral tradition from who knows who like we unfortunately end up doing with Native American works like that of the Yuchi and Zuni. My Prof as I recall did believe in a God, but she was... skeptical, always researching, pushing us to go beyond doctine etc., to learn and look at facts, and think of how other people felt. Pushing an agenda wasn't her style. She wanted us to think, to study from all angles, to question etc. It was quite nice.

 

[Deckerd]

Still smells the same, historically speaking. I have an MA in History and I do remember a very little about it.

 

[Marie1]

Still smells the same, historically speaking. I have an MA in History and I do remember a very little about it.

K, I've found one online reference to it so far, only the ave. age is 15, not 14, but its so close.

Mid-Victorian Era life expectancy = Liverpool = 15!!!!

3 out of every 20 babies die before their first birthday

1899 upper class Liverpool = 136 newborns out of 1000 would die before the age of 1

Working class = 274 infant deaths per 1000 births

From
http://victoriantruth.blogspot.com/2008/07/death-and-burial-in-victorian-age.html

So she didn't just make it up on her own.

And a couple more say 15 too at that period... which is more recent than I thought, 1800s.

http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/history/victorian/Victorian1.html

http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/citation/101/12/577
(You need university authorization for this one)

But part of the problem was

three out of every ten babies died before their first birthday, hence the large number of fleeting appearances of hitherto unheard offspring on the censuses.

http://www.census-helper.co.uk/victorian-life/

 

[Deckerd]

If we're talking about infant mortality, that's a great deal different from what you said earlier. If you want to look at infant mortality then I can absolutely guarantee that every poor social group on the planet had an appalling one in the mid-1900s.

 

[Marie1]

We're talking about the overall life expectancy in that place and time due to what is now viewed as a sort of moral rebellion. People lost their compassion along with a lot of their religiousness in the light of social Darwinism's survival of the fittest.

And it wasn't just the children, as you see from the stats the numbers are shocking but not the whole story. If people had had the compassion to help the poor, (as per the Bible) or do what it took to prevent that circumstance in the first place and prostitution (never a low risk occupation at any time... except maybe for the Orions?) hadn't been so rampant, then the problem wouldn't have been so astronomical. But it was.

You as a MA in History must remember a lot of the upheaval caused by those various turns.

 

[cultcross]

We're talking about the overall life expectancy in that place and time due to what is now viewed as a sort of moral rebellion. People lost their compassion along with a lot of their religiousness in the light of social Darwinism's survival of the fittest.

What a load of nonsense. 'social darwinism' emerging from lack of theism was never commonplace enough in Britain to cause massive rises in mortality - if you have proof otherwise I'd love to see it.
The life expectancy is that low because of infant mortality, btw. They're not independent statistics. What, you think there weren't 30, 40, 50 year olds in Victorian times? There was just a massive skew on the life expectancy from nearly half of children not making it past their first year.

And it wasn't just the children, as you see from the stats the numbers are shocking but not the whole story. If people had had the compassion to help the poor, (as per the Bible) or do what it took to prevent that circumstance in the first place and prostitution (never a low risk occupation at any time... except maybe for the Orions?) hadn't been so rampant, then the problem wouldn't have been so astronomical. But it was.

Which has nothing at all to do with the presence or absence of religion, and everything to do with its practitioners actually practising what they preach. Just as in any time, with any religion. In fact, philanthropy and charity in the modern sense emerged during the Victorian era, leading, among other things, to the establishment of public schools.