Picard's a father
- Thread starter garoo1980
- Start date
Sometimes fans get way too invested in the "reality" of this made-up universe. Ultimately it's just a work of entertainment. The writers chose to call a planet "Delta Vega" as a tribute -- that was the name of the planet in the first Star Trek episode to feature James T. Kirk, so since this was the first story about a new incarnation of James T. Kirk, they threw in the name as a wink. It's no different from, say, Captain America's shield on Tony Stark's workbench in Iron Man, or Kevin McCarthy's cameo in the Invasion of the Body Snatchers remake -- just an in-joke, one made-up story paying tribute to another.
Sure, it can be an entertaining creative exercise to concoct in-universe rationalizations for things that are done for such metatextual reasons. But it's losing perspective to get so obsessed with the "reality" of this invented construct that you can't tolerate a minor discrepancy. It's desirable for a story's internal reality to be plausible and consistent, but sooner or later you have to be able to step back and recognize it for the artificial, contrived thing that it is. Especially when it comes to something whose only purpose is metatextual, like an in-joke.
Sure, it can be an entertaining creative exercise to concoct in-universe rationalizations for things that are done for such metatextual reasons. But it's losing perspective to get so obsessed with the "reality" of this invented construct that you can't tolerate a minor discrepancy. It's desirable for a story's internal reality to be plausible and consistent, but sooner or later you have to be able to step back and recognize it for the artificial, contrived thing that it is. Especially when it comes to something whose only purpose is metatextual, like an in-joke.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Part of the appeal of a fictional universe is internal consistency. You have a setting and it should be able to withstand examination. Of course not everything is going to fit perfectly. However, if I'm writing a story about New York I'd better not put Central Park in Queens.
Orci & Kurtzman , for all their talk about how they are fans of the show and how they like putting in little touches for the fans, simply tossed together a few names and places and were not concerned about how it fit into the internal universe.
Orci & Kurtzman , for all their talk about how they are fans of the show and how they like putting in little touches for the fans, simply tossed together a few names and places and were not concerned about how it fit into the internal universe.
Delta Vega is not Central Park. It's barely even a generically named fictional locale like Goldberg's Deli.
There was a Rigel System between Earth and Qo'noS in "Broken Bow," there was a wild, untamed Rigel System on the frontier near Talos in "The Cage," where there were "no colonies this far out." There was a Rigel System with an isolated mining colony so far off the path they had to import wives in "Mudd's Women." Maybe it'd be convenient to pull some from the Rigel System in "The Doomsday Machine," the most densely populated area of the galaxy.
Also, there's the fact that the Enterprise-D visited Deneb in "Encounter at Farpoint," (as had Gary Mitchell and Jim Kirk, mentioned in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"). But in the original ending of Nemesis, Picard tells Commander Madden their next assignment after the ship is repaired is to explore Deneb, a place Picard explicitly says "no one has gone before."
So, yeah.
There was a Rigel System between Earth and Qo'noS in "Broken Bow," there was a wild, untamed Rigel System on the frontier near Talos in "The Cage," where there were "no colonies this far out." There was a Rigel System with an isolated mining colony so far off the path they had to import wives in "Mudd's Women." Maybe it'd be convenient to pull some from the Rigel System in "The Doomsday Machine," the most densely populated area of the galaxy.
Also, there's the fact that the Enterprise-D visited Deneb in "Encounter at Farpoint," (as had Gary Mitchell and Jim Kirk, mentioned in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"). But in the original ending of Nemesis, Picard tells Commander Madden their next assignment after the ship is repaired is to explore Deneb, a place Picard explicitly says "no one has gone before."
So, yeah.
^ Hodgkin's Law of Parallel Planetary Development strikes again! 
So we're allowed several Denebs but only one Delta Vega? 
This has got to be the silliest argument about the movie yet. It's a name. It's just a name used as an homage, nothing more. Like the Incredible Hulk movie featuring a cameo by a student reporter named Jack McGee. It obviously wasn't meant to be the same Jack McGee from the Bill Bixby TV series; it was a reuse of the same name in a different context as a metatextual homage to a preceding interpretation of the fictional universe.
Kurtzman and Orci weren't trying to claim this was the same planet; obviously if that had been their intent, it would've been a desert planet on the edge of the galaxy and would've had a lithium cracking station on it. They were just using a familiar name, devoid of its original context, as an in-joke for fans. That's all. They just underestimated how fanatical some fans get about tiny little details.
Kurtzman and Orci weren't trying to claim this was the same planet; obviously if that had been their intent, it would've been a desert planet on the edge of the galaxy and would've had a lithium cracking station on it. They were just using a familiar name, devoid of its original context, as an in-joke for fans. That's all. They just underestimated how fanatical some fans get about tiny little details.
You can believe anything you like, kkozoriz1, but the weight of evidence (like the fact that the movie's writers are big enough Trek fans to have read a number of the novels) and just plain common sense seem to me to be very much against you on this point.
Could someone restart the dead Janeway thrash so we can have a discussion with a greater chance of generating some intelligent new insights?
Could someone restart the dead Janeway thrash so we can have a discussion with a greater chance of generating some intelligent new insights?
I'm still wondering how the discussion went from 'Picard's a father' to a debate about Delta Vega in JJ Abrams' Trek film...
Dead Janeway continues presently (albeit in a far more one-sided, pro-Janeway, anti-Pocket fashion) in the Voyager forum's "Woman in a Refrigerator" thread...
But I don't think there are a half-dozen Rigels (though you could probably squeak by with just two, as Star Charts did).
Actually there are a few. "Rigel" is Arabic for "foot," just as "Deneb" means "tail," so it shows up in a number of star names. Alpha Centauri's real name is Rigil Kentaurus or Al Rijil. And Mu Virginis is also called Rijl el Awwa. (And I wish Star Charts had identified ENT's nearby "Rigel" with Mu Virginis rather than making up an imaginary "Beta Rigel.")
I'm still wondering how the discussion went from 'Picard's a father' to a debate about Delta Vega in JJ Abrams' Trek film...
I'm with you. I'm sure there was a logical progression in there somewhere, but I have no idea what it was.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Let's see if I can re-construct it....
<ducking and running>
It'll be interesting to see Picard as a father. Beverly's already been there. This is a "Where no Jean-Luc has gone before." I just hope it doesn't turn into a soap opera. Baby gets life threatening disease, baby gets kidnapped, etc.
<ducking and running>
It'll be interesting to see Picard as a father. Beverly's already been there. This is a "Where no Jean-Luc has gone before." I just hope it doesn't turn into a soap opera. Baby gets life threatening disease, baby gets kidnapped, etc.
That'd work. But the issue generated by "Broken Bow" was that our Earth heroes did not recognize the word Rigel as a stellar name at all, which calls for rather exceptional rationalization.
My favorite would have been that the proper pronunciation of that stellar name in the Trek centuries had evolved/devolved to "Rig-Ill", close to the original, and that the pronunciation "Rye-Gel" was now exclusively an alien one, unrelated to any of those stars the humans called Rigel... But getting that presented in a halfway interesting dramatic form would have been nigh-impossible.
Then again, ye olden fans managed to solve that "planet Orion" thing nicely enough, by introducing O'Ryan's planet.
Perhaps Archer didn't recognize Rigel as a stellar name for the same reason he didn't recognize Sarin as a combat gas: he ignored the obvious, considering it far too unlikely. When T'Pol chose to interpret Rigel as the name of a nearby location, Archer readily went with it, merely doubting T'Pol's motivations.
Agreed. Of course, Picard also has interesting ballast in having lived for seven-plus decades firmly believing he'd not raise a family, then tragically losing what he probably considered a surrogate family and a surrogate son. Adjusting to the new reality would be expected to take some effort...
Timo Saloniemi
As long as Little Picard doesn't get kidnapped/lost/injured/left behind in the shuttle in every single book.
And none of that "Home Alone in Space" stuff, where LP, accidently left all alone on the Enterprise, has to foil an attempted invasion by Klingon Bandits using paint pots, string, toasters, ball bearings and his father's lucky saddle.
Also no Little Picard catchphrases!
And if it turns out LP is a Preserver in disguise...
And none of that "Home Alone in Space" stuff, where LP, accidently left all alone on the Enterprise, has to foil an attempted invasion by Klingon Bandits using paint pots, string, toasters, ball bearings and his father's lucky saddle.
Also no Little Picard catchphrases!
And if it turns out LP is a Preserver in disguise...
