Picard's a father

[Turtletrekker]

Archer's case is completely different although I do see the similarities between the two but that doesn't mean Enterprise was ripping B5 off.

And besides, everyone knows it was Deep Space Nine that was a complete rip-off of Babylon 5.

See now, I always thought the similaruties between DS9 and B5 were superficial at best. However, while watching B5, I was constantly thinking, "Wow, JMS totally ripped that off from Lord of the Rings".

 

[Turtletrekker]

Getting back on topic...

Picard is actually 75 in Destiny. Which is only about middle age by 24th-century standards.

Which is essentially the same age that Elias Vaughn (born Oct. 2274) was when he became a father to Prynn (born 2350).

 

[F. King Daniel]

Going back off topic for a second:

No matter what the writer's influences were, the fact remains that in the show that is pretty much Star Trek by another name we saw a heroic space captain bring diverse species together in an alliance and then end up President of that alliance.
That story had already been told.

Besides - it's a monitor screen only the most die-hard fans ever saw. It wasn't intended to be the gospel truth of the Trek universe - after all it was contradicted about four episodes later, and it's dates were already wrong to begin with.

Shouldn't spoken canon hold weight over an invisible inaccruate on-screen graphic?

 

[Joel_Kirk]

James Doohan was 80 when his daughter Sarah was born.

And, Tony Randall was 76/77 when his kids were born in 97' and 98'....and his wife was in her late 20s...!

 

[William Leisner]

Shouldn't spoken canon hold weight over an invisible inaccruate on-screen graphic?

Yes, that's exactly what we need: differing layers of canon within canon. Excuse me while I go blow my brains out...

 

[Christopher]

Shouldn't spoken canon hold weight over an invisible inaccruate on-screen graphic?

Absolutely. Lots of onscreen graphics are just in-jokes, like the rubber duckie in the E-D's master systems display. Of course, canon itself is mutable and sometimes spoken dialogue contradicts other spoken dialogue. It's pretty pointless to dwell too much on the concept of canon, because it carries nowhere near as much weight as some fans assume.

But what spoken dialogue are you referring to? Wait, is this about the "Admiral Archer" line in ST XI? They didn't say "Jonathan Archer," so it's incorrect to claim that line as canonical evidence of Jonathan Archer's survival. All we know canonically is that there is an admiral in the 2250s whose last name is Archer and who owned a beagle. That admiral could be Jonathan Archer's son, granddaughter, nephew, cousin once removed, who knows? (Yes, I know you've said before that you base this on the writers' stated intent that it was Jonathan, but that's offscreen information and therefore not canon by any definition.)

Not to mention that it's an alternate timeline anyway, so even if your conjecture that the admiral in question is Jonathan Archer were correct in the Abramsverse, that wouldn't actually contradict the Archer biography in the onscreen graphic, since his 2245 death date would be after the timelines diverged. So it's really a non-issue.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^Not quite. Archer was called "Admiral" in STXI. The proper form of address would have been "President", had he held office.

 

[Christopher]

^All the more reason to suppose the admiral was not Jonathan Archer.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: QUINTO'S SPOCK SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING!!!

^Or all the more reason to discard an invisible and inaccurate on-screen graphic .

 

[JarodRussell]

^All the more reason to suppose the admiral was not Jonathan Archer.

yes, it is Admiral Archer is a reference to the Archer we all know and love, and yes he would be over 100, which is a likely life expectancy in a futuristic space faring race of humans (as depicted by McCoy’s (Deforest Kelley) in THE NEXT GENERATION.

http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/18/orc...kmovie-transcript-of-last-weeks-impromptu-qa/

Yes, I know you've said before that you base this on the writers' stated intent that it was Jonathan, but that's offscreen information and therefore not canon by any definition.

I love how you just ignore the writer's intention. How would you feel if someone does that with your work?

Not to mention that it's an alternate timeline anyway, so even if your conjecture that the admiral in question is Jonathan Archer were correct in the Abramsverse, that wouldn't actually contradict the Archer biography in the onscreen graphic, since his 2245 death date would be after the timelines diverged. So it's really a non-issue.

So Nero's time travel changed Archer's biography? How?

 

[William Leisner]

^ Of course, this is the same guy who put Spock on "Delta Vega" as a conscious tribute to "WNMHGB". Not to mention making black holes magic.

 

[Christopher]

Re: QUINTO'S SPOCK SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY SHOUTING!!!

^Or all the more reason to discard an invisible and inaccurate on-screen graphic .

Even discounting the graphic, I still think it's profoundly implausible that the Admiral Archer mentioned in the movie would be Jonathan. Given a choice between two unlikely and non-binding assumptions, there is no requirement to choose either one.

 

[kkozoriz1]

^ Of course, this is the same guy who put Spock on "Delta Vega" as a conscious tribute to "WNMHGB". Not to mention making black holes magic.

It sure makes the crew look dumb in WNMHGB. You can SEE Vulcan from Delta Vega and they figure it's s good place to leave Gary Mitchell. Also, if Vulcan is so near the "the edge of the galaxy" it sure makes the NuEnterprise a LOT faster than has even been considered on here.

Either way, Putting Delta vega in the Vulcan system was a majorly dumb move.

 

[justcorbly]

...I suppose having kids in your 40s would be unheard of a few centuries ago, its the same thing

Being 40 was almost unheard of not too many centuries ago.

That said, I'd like to see more examination of the implications of the much longer lifespans offered in the 24th century. For example, is it reasonable to expect one person to stay with one spouse and one career for a century or more? Why would Picard spend decades in Starfleet when he could be off being an archeologist for a few decades?

Spock has successfully made the migration from Starfleet officer to diplomat to wizened sage presumably hiding away on Romulus. Have any other characters been allowed to change thusly?

 

[Christopher]

It sure makes the crew look dumb in WNMHGB. You can SEE Vulcan from Delta Vega and they figure it's s good place to leave Gary Mitchell. Also, if Vulcan is so near the "the edge of the galaxy" it sure makes the NuEnterprise a LOT faster than has even been considered on here.

Who says it's the same Delta Vega? It's obviously a different planet, it just happens to use the same name. Just like Paris, Texas, or Moscow, Ohio. Or the state of Georgia and the country of Georgia.

So yeah, it was a weird way to make an homage, but not an irredeemable one.

 

[justcorbly]

Where was Archer in STXI? :S

There was the line about Scotty beaming "Admiral Archer's dog" that some chose to interpret as referring to Jonathan.

Well, the line certainly implies Archer is still alive, else why else bother to transport the dog?

 

[JarodRussell]

So yeah, it was a weird way to make an homage, but not an irredeemable one.

What's especially weird in this context is that nu-Delta Vega looks like TOS-Rura Penthe, and nu-Rura Penthe (in the deleted scenes) looks like TOS-Delta Vega.


And Delta Vega sounds like a distinct identifier. I don't know about astronomical naming conventions, but Delta Vega also sounds more like the name of a solar system, like Alpha Centauri, and not of a planet or moon.

 

[kkozoriz1]

In that case, who's to say it's the same Vulcan? Or Earth? It could explain why Vulcan suddenly has a blue sky! There we go.

The only time Delta vegas was used in Star Trek up to this point was for the planet near the edge of the galaxy with the automated Litihum Cracking Station. If you want to consider that the Federation has as many Delta Vegas as the US has Springfields, then so be it.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

The only time Delta vegas was used in Star Trek up to this point was for the planet near the edge of the galaxy with the automated Litihum Cracking Station. If you want to consider that the Federation has as many Delta Vegas as the US has Springfields, then so be it.

Delta Vegas...?

 

[Christopher]

Well, the line certainly implies Archer is still alive, else why else bother to transport the dog?

All we know is that there was an admiral who was named Archer and liked beagles. It could've been Jonathan Archer's child or grandchild, someone who developed a similar fondness for beagles when Dad or Grandpa gave them a pet beagle when they were seven.

After all, we know it has to be a different beagle, because beagles have a life expectancy of a dozen years or so, not over a century. So why can't it be a different Archer?