Spoilers Picard Prequel "Children of Mars"

[Longinus]

Productions still have budgets. So, even if they are not "out of cash" it doesn't mean that money was allocated for it.

Yes. And that would mean that someone didn't allocate sufficient budget. So that person didn't care. This really can't be that hard to understand.

Again, there is a long line of possibilities to get to apathy. We simply don't have enough information to conclude one way or the other. Apathy isn't a real explanation either. It's just a dig at CBS.

Not really. It is really only about at what level of decision making the apathy happened.

Didn't say you said that. This isn't me putting words in your mouth so stop taking it personally.

I just don't think that mocking viewpoints you disagree with using hyperbole strawmen is particularly helpful.

 

[fireproof78]

Yes. And that would mean that someone didn't allocate sufficient budget. So that person didn't care. This really can't be that hard to understand.

Harder than you might think. At this point its agree to disagree.

Not really. It is really only about at what level of decision making the apathy happened.

Again, I don't agree but that's OK.

I just don't think that mocking viewpoints you disagree with using hyperbole strawmen is particularly helpful.

I appreciate that point of view. But, I'm not directing it at you or anyone else. I am expressing my frustration at these viewpoints, and pretty much just feel like Star Trek isn't fun any more. So, you'll forgive me if I struggle a bit with a feeling of sadness at the attitudes I see expressed around this board and Trek fandom. With the fact that actually enjoying episodes takes a back seat to pulling apart use of CGI models and accusations of apathy are preferred to discussing how the writers did.

It feels very much like a deconstructionist attitude towards this current production of Trek and its just sad to me. It's not fun.

 

[Tuskin38]

CBS owns the rights to everything. From "The Cage" all the way to "Children of Mars" (currently). Novels, comics, video games... they own it all. There is no negotiation.

Certain models maybe have been made on commission, and only negotiated for certain forms of media.

I know CBS owns the rights to almost all designs shown in Star Trek.

 

[Tuskin38]

So that person didn't care.

That doesn’t mean that at all. You don’t know what was going through that person’s mind.

 

[Noname Given]

CBS has money and resources. If they wanted to have 24th centyry ships there, they could have had them there. So someone, at some point didn’t care. I don't know who, nor does it even matter, I just want them to do better next time.

And it is perfectly natural that the discussion is mostly about the aspects people disagree about or have issues with. If everyone agrees that some aspect was good, there ultimately isn't terribly much to talk about.

Just because they decided not to go with ship designs that are 20 to 30 years old doesn't mean they didn't care.

It means they want to give Star Trek a modern look for the 21st century.

I find it hilarious that some TNG fans are complaining about the 23rd century ship designs they did use that were from discovery claiming that they wouldn't still be using such ships 100 plus years later in universe; yet the ships they claim they should have used like the Excelsior or Miranda class are 23rd century ships that first appeared in Star Trek : III The Search for Spock" and "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" respectively.

 

[Greg Cox]

About budgets. I don't know the first thing about TV production or CGI models (hell, I can barely operate a smartphone), but when it comes to book publishing I have dealt with P&Ls and budgets and production issues and such, and generally it's not about "caring" or "not caring." It's about choosing your battles and making trade-offs and deciding that, yes, you could do something cool, but is it worth the extra time and money, particularly if you're on a tight schedule? For better or for worse, stuff is not put together in some platonic realm of pure creation where budgets and schedules don't apply. And you can't always just throw more time and money at, say, an eight-minute short subject if you're on a fixed budget. So, yes, you make trade-offs.

Hypothetical example: I'm editing a new fantasy novel and I have a set art budget, determined by our estimated sales figures, so I can spring for some cool interior maps of the Mystic Realm OR I can hire a big-name artist to do the cover painting. Ideally, of course, I could do both, but the world is seldom ideal. So I scrap the maps and go with the expensive cover art because that's probably going to boost sales more.

Doesn't mean that I didn't "care" enough to include maps. Just means that sometimes you have to make judgment calls on how best to spend your time and money.

(And "well, you should have budgeted more money" isn't really a solution here. You work with what you can reasonably afford.)

P.S. And, yes, in a pinch I have been known to recycle stock art on book covers to save some time and money.

 

[Longinus]

Just because they decided not to go with ship designs that are 20 to 30 years old doesn't mean they didn't care.

Well, they didn't care about that thing.

It means they want to give Star Trek a modern look for the 21st century.

And they can do that. A perfect opportunity. But they didn't do that.

I find it hilarious that some TNG fans are complaining about the 23rd century ship designs they did use that were from discovery claiming that they wouldn't still be using such ships 100 plus years later in universe; yet the ships they claim they should have used like the Excelsior or Miranda class are 23rd century ships that first appeared in Star Trek : III The Search for Spock" and "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" respectively.

Movie era ships being in service during TNG era was stretching the credibility already, even older ships being in service much latter is even worse. And no, they shouldn't have used any 23rd century movie ships here, they should have used existing 24th century designs there are plenty of or alternatively make new designs. And this is like when they started with TNG, when 24th century designs other than Galaxy simply didn't exist and had to be created from scratch by creating new physical models.

And this is also about art design, and creating coherent visual language. If you have shows set in eras 150 years apart in the same setting, then you need to establish some visual ques to set them apart. Otherwise it all just blends into one amorphous nonsense mess like STO.

 

[Longinus]

Doesn't mean that I didn't "care" enough to include maps.

You did care. The person assigning the budget didn't.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Good question. Though I wonder why the short needed four writers for six minutes, all of whom would need to be paid. They also had to pay for the song they used I would imagine.

Writing credits / authorships don't always strictly refer to who penned the script. Two people came up with an idea over drinks, talked to another person who wrote a draft, then sent that to another person who polished it off. Four writers.

In academics, a Ph.D. supervisor always gets their name on graduate student's co-authored papers, even if they didn't even touch the manuscript.

About budgets. I don't know the first thing about TV production or CGI models (hell, I can barely operate a smartphone), but when it comes to book publishing I have dealt with P&Ls and budgets and production issues and such, and generally it's not about "caring" or "not caring." It's about choosing your battles and making trade-offs and deciding that, yes, you could do something cool, but is it worth the extra time and money, particularly if you're on a tight schedule? For better or for worse, stuff is not put together in some platonic realm of pure creation where budgets and schedules don't apply. And you can't always just throw more time and money at, say, an eight-minute short subject if you're on a fixed budget. So, yes, you make trade-offs.

This is what I was saying earlier. It's not a utopic sharefest of ideas, even if they're all "owned" by the same entity. There are always intellectual property issues and other rights tied to it.

 

[BillJ]

Writing credits / authorships don't always strictly refer to who penned the script. Two people came up with an idea over drinks, talked to another person who wrote a draft, then sent that to another person who polished it off. Four writers.

I imagine if your name is in the credits, you’re getting a paycheck.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Good question. Though I wonder why the short needed four writers for six minutes, all of whom would need to be paid. They also had to pay for the song they used I would imagine.

Writing credits are complex and arcane. I think any one who's been on this site for a while or has a more than passing interest in BTS stuff knows this .
Yeah, they had to pay for the song. Which was probably more important to the story than the ships. Priorities

 

[Nerys Myk]

I imagine if your name is in the credits, you’re getting a paycheck.

The union, no doubt agrees.

 

[Lord Garth]

Back to something plot-relevant finally. If there were Defiant or Galaxy or Intrepid or Whatever Class Starships in Mars orbit, they might've been able to stop what was going on on Mars. There were no hero ships around. Just old rust-buckets where no one is expecting anything. Any new ships being designed are still being designed. So they're not up-and-about.

The Solar System notoriously leaves itself under-protected until it's too late. It's never not been that way.

 

[Danja]

If you have shows set in eras 150 years apart in the same setting, then you need to establish some visual ques to set them apart. Otherwise it all just blends into one amorphous nonsense mess like STO.

The average fan isn't going to care whether or not a ship is Galaxy, Defiant, or Constitution class.

 

[Greg Cox]

You did care. The person assigning the budget didn't.

No, it means the person assigning the budget took a hard look at the numbers, and made a practical decision, based on production costs, schedules, and estimated revenues.

Books and movies and TV eps are not forged in an ivory tower where choices are made on a purely artistic basis They're hammered out in the trenches by hard-working artisans making do with the resources available to them--and trying not to lose money in the process.

Look it this way. If you're building a house and decide you can't afford to build the Taj Mahal, but might have to settle for one bathroom instead of two, that doesn't mean you didn't "care" enough about the house to spare no expense to make it perfect. Just means you made choices and trade-offs based on your needs and budget, as opposed to getting everything you might have wanted.

"Okay, let's go with a vinyl roof instead of slate."

 

[fireproof78]

"Okay, let's go with a vinyl roof instead of slate."

Yup. That's why I have shingles instead of metal roof.

 

[BillJ]

The average fan isn't going to care whether or not a ship is Galaxy, Defiant, or Constitution class.

Yeah, but they’ve made no secret of pointing these shows at the hardcore crowd. Even calling themselves superfans at one point in the run up to Discovery.

 

[Lord Garth]

Yeah, but they’ve made no secret of pointing these shows at the hardcore crowd. Even calling themselves superfans at one point in the run up to Discovery.

I have several friends who act like Star Trek begins and ends with TNG. That would actually be the majority of my friends. But they're interested in Picard. If they see Discovery ships in Picard, it's not going to register to them as anything wrong. They'll chalk it up to "other ships we haven't seen before". I'm sure they're saving all their fancy new 25th Century designs (that will really set this show about from DSC) for the actual series itself. They're not going to introduce them in a Short.

 

[BillJ]

I have several friends who act like Star Trek begins and ends with TNG. But they're interested in Picard. If they see Discovery ships in Picard, it's not going to register to them as anything wrong. They'll chalk it up to "other ships we haven't seen before". I'm sure they're saving all their fancy new 25th Century designs for the actual series itself, they're not going to introduce them in a Short.

Why they could’ve used the Galaxy-class which is era specific and they already had the CGI elements for. They could’ve tucked it in the background and not even needed to change the name.

 

[Lord Garth]

Why they could’ve used the Galaxy-class which is era specific and they already had the CGI elements for. They could’ve tucked it in the background and not even needed to change the name.

See my previous post for why I think they didn't.