Spoilers Picard 1x1, "Remembrance"

[Longinus]

No, that description is cartoony and childish. That was not what was portrayed on screen.

They were a regime of human-supremacists who subjugated, killed and ate other sapient species. So yeah, 'cannibal space nazis' is pretty accurate.

If that was the intent then it failed miserably.

Who knows what the intent was! It was a terrible creative decision regardless.

Darkness is a willingness to explore the negative aspects of human behavior.

Yes. And for that to work you need to have coherent theme and decent grasp of psychology. It seemed like they were going for pretty interesting exploration of the dark places 'ends justify means' and 'hard men making hard choices' leads to with Lorca... but then it turns out that instead of a psychologically scarred war veteran he was a cartoon villain from mirror universe. And that's the point, that is how Discovery sucked at dealing with the dark themes, it made a joke out of them.

DSC was inconsistent in its themes and application but calling it childish isn't accurate either.

*shrug* I think 'puerile' was perfectly fair. Edgy cannibal space nazis are the sort of villains twelve-year-olds find cool.

 

[Noname Given]

TMP is still my favorite Trek movie. Fight me.

I can't -- my ship is in a wormhole and the phasers are automatically cut off -- and my Photon Torpedoes won't arrive 'til Tuesday.

 

[eschaton]

Yes. And for that to work you need to have coherent theme and decent grasp of psychology. It seemed like they were going for pretty interesting exploration of the dark places 'ends justify means' and 'hard men making hard choices' leads to with Lorca... but then it turns out that instead of a psychologically scarred war veteran he was a cartoon villain from mirror universe. And that's the point, that is how Discovery sucked at dealing with the dark themes, it made a joke out of them.

Even if they wanted to make him from the MU, they could have done it so much better. For example, what if he wanted to reform the Terran Empire to make it stronger by allowing non-humans a real role? Perhaps he was a malcontent prior to his trip to the PU, but his experience there made him realize that non-humans had valuable skills and could work together to bring glory to The Empire. But he still thought that freedom was for suckers. It would make him more of a grey character, and add some complexity even if the Discovery crew were forced to oppose him for self-interested reasons. Further, it would help to explain how MU Spock rose to a fairly high position only a decade or so after the Terran Empire was eating other sentient non-humans.

 

[fireproof78]

First, I believe the root of Discovery's biggest flaws stem from the behind the scenes turner in terms of showrunners and writers.

This point I completely agree.

Still, as others have said, not as "dark" as Deep Space Nine. I disagree it doesn't embrace ST's optimism. It's chalk full of optimism

Again, I agree. I think one aspect of DSC that I do like is that Burnham has to truly come in to her own of owning those Starfleet values on a personal level rather than relating to them through Georgiou, or through Sarek or Cornwell.

TMP is still my favoriteTrek movie. Fight me.

IDIC.

 

[Longinus]

Even if they wanted to make him from the MU, they could have done it so much better. For example, what if he wanted to reform the Terran Empire to make it stronger by allowing non-humans a real role? Perhaps he was a malcontent prior to his trip to the PU, but his experience there made him realize that non-humans had valuable skills and could work together to bring glory to The Empire. But he still thought that freedom was for suckers. It would make him more of a grey character, and add some complexity even if the Discovery crew were forced to oppose him for self-interested reasons. Further, it would help to explain how MU Spock rose to a fairly high position only a decade or so after the Terran Empire was eating other sentient non-humans.

Yes, certainly. That would have worked too.

 

[AgentCoop]

Saying it's not as popular as other Trek films can be read a bunch of different ways though.

Is it less popular than say TWOK? Sure. But it's also much more popular than TFF I'd say.

Of course. That's what is so absurd about this "debate". I never said it was the least popular or the worst. I merely said, while making a larger point, that it's not the most popular film in the franchise. I did not expect that to be taken as a controversial statement.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Oh, for the sake of Kahless will you give it a rest?

Literally the only thing I stated was that TMP isn't as popular as other Trek films. AND IT ISN'T.

You yourself placed it in the middle of the pack. You don't even agree with your own argument.

Edited to remove a bit of name calling and snarky reply.

I will just say "I've said all there is to on this specific topic and let it go at that."

 

[BillJ]

... but then it turns out that instead of a psychologically scarred war veteran he was a cartoon villain from mirror universe. And that's the point, that is how Discovery sucked at dealing with the dark themes, it made a joke out of them.

Damndest thing was, Isaacs nearly pulled it off. Incredible actor. Yeoh is a formidable presence, but if I'm looking for an actor that I really want brought back, it would be Jason Isaacs.

 

[AgentCoop]

Now you've resorted to lying about things. I wholeheartedly agree with my now proven position that you keep trying to walk back what you actually said, purposely misstate what I said as well as you just outright being wrong.

Yeah, I'm done with you.

 

[jaime]

You think that the noir detective boilerplate that Chabon offered up to start this story is nuance? OK. Not immediately obvious to those with no exposure to the mystery genre, sure, but given it provides its plot devices that are now seen as cliche, such as the young mysterious woman who hires the detective dies to get him moving, nuanced? No.

You mean the way Picard is in his own Dixon Hill? A thing that makes a nice sense for the character.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Yeah, I'm done with you.

Prove it!

 

[fireproof78]

They were a regime of human-supremacists who subjugated, killed and ate other sapient species. So yeah, 'cannibal space nazis' is pretty accurate.

But it isn't helpful to the conversation either.

Who knows what the intent was! It was a terrible creative decision regardless.

On that point, I agree. Doesn't make it childish. It makes it a poor decision.

Yes. And for that to work you need to have coherent theme and decent grasp of psychology. It seemed like they were going for pretty interesting exploration of the dark places 'ends justify means' and 'hard men making hard choices' leads to with Lorca... but then it turns out that instead of a psychologically scarred war veteran he was a cartoon villain from mirror universe. And that's the point, that is how Discovery sucked at dealing with the dark themes, it made a joke out of them.

I think they have a decent grasp of psychology but the theme suffered with BTS drama. Because, even with Lorca being from the MU, you still had Sarek and Cornwell struggling with the same dilemma.

Was it done well? I'm going with "No." But, it is there.

*shrug* I think 'puerile' was perfectly fair. Edgy cannibal space nazis are the sort of villains twelve-year-olds find cool.

Except its not there to look cool. It's doing the same thing that the Mirror Universe has done in Trek-offer a darker, if somewhat campier, look at negative aspects of human behavior that we are not as far removed from as current humans would like to wish.

 

[jaime]

But it isn't helpful to the conversation either.

On that point, I agree. Doesn't make it childish. It makes it a poor decision.

I think they have a decent grasp of psychology but the theme suffered with BTS drama. Because, even with Lorca being from the MU, you still had Sarek and Cornwell struggling with the same dilemma.

Was it done well? I'm going with "No." But, it is there.

Except its not there to look cool. It's doing the same thing that the Mirror Universe has done in Trek-offer a darker, if somewhat campier, look at negative aspects of human behavior that we are not as far removed from as current humans would like to wish.

The actual universe looked like the mirror universe.

So they made the mirror universe have..uh...darker...light.......

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I have a question...Is "Remembrance" the first time Picard has spoken French onscreen? I don't remember him ever doing it in TNG or any of the movies.

 

[Gonzo]

Damndest thing was, Isaacs nearly pulled it off. Incredible actor. Yeoh is a formidable presence, but if I'm looking for an actor that I really want brought back, it would be Jason Isaacs.

Yeah, its not Yeohs fault or Sonequa's that their material is not great, Yeoh will get more attention in the S31 show and Sonequa will still be front and centre in S3.

Isaacs chewed up the screen and got by far the more interesting material even if he did end up being a moustache twirler in the end, he should have been a secret S31 operative with no MU at all in the first season.

Bit of a waste just for one season really but perhaps he didnt want to or could not commit any more.

Shame we wont see his PU version now that Discovery has gone back to the future.

 

[Longinus]

I have a question...Is "Remembrance" the first time Picard has spoken French onscreen? I don't remember him ever doing it in TNG or any of the movies.

No, he did in TNG couple of times.

 

[SJGardner]

I have a question...Is "Remembrance" the first time Picard has spoken French onscreen? I don't remember him ever doing it in TNG or any of the movies.

I do remember him saying merde a few times... but at the very least, he sang Frère Jacques, if that counts.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Oh yeah, I forgot he sung that song to the kids in "Disaster".

Don't remember the "merde" though.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

An apology to AgentCoop, no matter how right or wrong we may believe ourselves or others to be there is no reason for name calling. I called AgentCoop a liar and for that I am sincerely sorry. I should not have said it as I do not believe it to be true. I let an unfortunate day get the better of me. Be back on Saturday.

 

[AgentCoop]

An apology to AgentCoop, no matter how right or wrong we may believe ourselves or others to be there is no reason for name calling. I called AgentCoop a liar and for that I am sincerely sorry. I should not have said it as I do not believe it to be true. I let an unfortunate day get the better of me. Be back on Saturday.

Fair enough. Apology accepted. Silly how we both got heated over something so insignificant. I apologize for my part as well.