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Spoilers PIC: The Last Best Hope by Una McCormack Review Thread

Rate Star Trek - Picard: The Last Best Hope

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in STO they tried to explain it by saying the supernova some how also entered subspace because Iconians.

I mean the game went into deeper detail then that, but that's all I can remember.

Yeah, but that's all obsolete now, because Picard came up with a more sensible explanation that's now canonical. It was Romulus's own star that went supernova, so there's no need for subspace explanations for an FTL supernova. Of course, a habitable planet around a star capable of supernova is nonsense, but it's nonsense with multiple Trek precedents (Fabrina, Minara, Beta Niobe).
 
The Last Best Hope does try to address the scientific implausibility of Picard's take on the supernova by implying there's some mysterious force behind it as that's not how a natural supernova works. Though no one's ever followed up on those implications and what they could mean.
 
The Last Best Hope does try to address the scientific implausibility of Picard's take on the supernova by implying there's some mysterious force behind it as that's not how a natural supernova works.

Yeah, but there are still far fewer absurdities in the canonical Picard version than in the comic's "Hobus" version (the name "Hobus" being one of the greatest absurdities, if you ask me).
 
Yeah, but that's all obsolete now, because Picard came up with a more sensible explanation that's now canonical. It was Romulus's own star that went supernova, so there's no need for subspace explanations for an FTL supernova. Of course, a habitable planet around a star capable of supernova is nonsense, but it's nonsense with multiple Trek precedents (Fabrina, Minara, Beta Niobe).
What is it about supernovas that make it unusual for Romulus’s sun to have one?
 
What is it about supernovas that make it unusual for Romulus’s sun to have one?

Supernovae are only possible in stars at least 9 times the mass of the Sun. Lower-mass stars will only grow into red giants, dissipate their atmospheres, and leave white dwarfs behind. And the bigger a star, the shorter its lifespan -- the light that burns brightest burns fastest, as they say. Stars big enough to go supernova have lifespans of tens of millions of years or less. That's not even enough time for terrestrial planets to form, let alone for life to evolve. No star with habitable planets should be large enough to be remotely capable of supernova, ever. It's completely impossible in reality.
 
I'd always assumed that it would have to have been artificially induced, by some technology beyond anything the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Gorn, or the Tholians had at the time.
 
I'd always assumed that it would have to have been artificially induced, by some technology beyond anything the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Gorn, or the Tholians had at the time.

Yeah, except then Fabrina, Minara, and Beta Niobe would've had to be artificial too. Unless those planets were somehow artificially constructed around supergiant stars, but why would anyone choose to do that? Except that many Trek planets are around supergiant stars that couldn't possibly support life -- Rigel, Deneb, Antares, etc. The problem is that the stars bright enough to get names are usually the short-lived supergiant ones.
 
Star Trek isn't our world, never was and never will be. It's versions of supernovae can be as magical and silly as their versions of black holes. Or sound in space.
 
Star Trek isn't our world, never was and never will be. It's versions of supernovae can be as magical and silly as their versions of black holes. Or sound in space.

No. Fiction is not automatically a license to be nonsensical. There are many different flavors of science fiction, some more plausible than others, and Gene Roddenberry wanted Star Trek to be more believable on both a scientific and a character level than most of its contemporaries and predecessors in SFTV. He consulted with scientists and engineers to get the science right while most other shows just made up gibberish and didn't even know what "galaxy" meant. When he did make concessions -- like using familiar star names despite their unsuitability for life -- it was a conscious choice to take poetic license for the sake of the story. It was not the kind of anything-goes laziness you're suggesting. Also, supernovae weren't as well-understood in the '60s. SF from the past often contains errors in comparison to what we know today, but that doesn't mean the writers didn't care enough to try.

TOS and TNG's commitment to being smarter than their competition was a key part of why Trek became enduringly popular while most other genre shows from that era died. It saddens me that audiences today don't appreciate how important that was to its success. We cared about Trek's world so much because it felt like a world we could believe in and imagine ourselves living in -- not perfectly, no, but certainly more so than other shows whose worldbuilding insulted our intelligence.

Also, I don't see what's wrong with Trek's version of black holes, the artificial Narada-generated ones aside. (The "Type 4 quantum singularity" in VGR: "Parallax" was specifically not called a black hole so that they could justify it not behaving like one.) If anything, Trek was ahead of the curve on that. "Tomorrow is Yesterday" featured a "black star" at a time when the term "black hole" hadn't even caught on yet, and its depiction of the object creating a time warp anticipated Frank Tipler's seminal paper on closed timelike curves by seven years.
 
No. Fiction is not automatically a license to be nonsensical. There are many different flavors of science fiction, some more plausible than others, and Gene Roddenberry wanted Star Trek to be more believable on both a scientific and a character level than most of its contemporaries and predecessors in SFTV. He consulted with scientists and engineers to get the science right while most other shows just made up gibberish and didn't even know what "galaxy" meant. When he did make concessions -- like using familiar star names despite their unsuitability for life -- it was a conscious choice to take poetic license for the sake of the story. It was not the kind of anything-goes laziness you're suggesting. Also, supernovae weren't as well-understood in the '60s. SF from the past often contains errors in comparison to what we know today, but that doesn't mean the writers didn't care enough to try.

TOS and TNG's commitment to being smarter than their competition was a key part of why Trek became enduringly popular while most other genre shows from that era died. It saddens me that audiences today don't appreciate how important that was to its success. We cared about Trek's world so much because it felt like a world we could believe in and imagine ourselves living in -- not perfectly, no, but certainly more so than other shows whose worldbuilding insulted our intelligence.

Also, I don't see what's wrong with Trek's version of black holes, the artificial Narada-generated ones aside. (The "Type 4 quantum singularity" in VGR: "Parallax" was specifically not called a black hole so that they could justify it not behaving like one.) If anything, Trek was ahead of the curve on that. "Tomorrow is Yesterday" featured a "black star" at a time when the term "black hole" hadn't even caught on yet, and its depiction of the object creating a time warp anticipated Frank Tipler's seminal paper on closed timelike curves by seven years.
Gene Roddenberry hasn't been in charge of Star Trek for much longer than he was. Other creators have long since taken over with their own ideas, in the same way new canon overrides old canon. Are you sure you're not putting your own bias forward here? There certainly was a place for a more plausible Star Trek at one time, but it's also a place where a lot of daft nonsense happens. I'd go so far as to say the daft nonsense far outweighs the plausible science at this point. Past any point of going back, because it's always going to be the world of a silly forcefield around the galaxy, or where transporters can make you children again, or there's a universe of magic through a portal at the centre of the galaxy, or we're all decendants of people who look suspiciously like Odo and there are magic godlike beings who keep Picards as favourite pets no matter how much "real science" is ever injected back into it.
 
Gene Roddenberry hasn't been in charge of Star Trek for much longer than he was. Other creators have long since taken over with their own ideas, in the same way new canon overrides old canon. Are you sure you're not putting your own bias forward here?

Obviously different creators apply different levels of credibility, but that doesn't validate your bias that it doesn't matter at all. There are still Trek productions that make some effort to get it right; Dr. Erin Macdonald has done good work as the science consultant on the recent Secret Hideout shows, and Discovery's fourth season and SNW have had some excellent science alongside some not-so-great science. So there is no uniform standard. Some creators try harder at it than others, and putting effort into a creation is something that should always be appreciated, not dismissed as unimportant.

Am I biased in favor of creators striving to do the best they can instead of assuming it's okay not to care? Hell, yes, and I'm proud of that bias, because it's the standard I hold myself to as a writer. And I don't think it's wrong to want to hold something I love to a high standard, to encourage it to try harder and live up to its best instead of settling for mediocrity.
 
Obviously different creators apply different levels of credibility, but that doesn't validate your bias that it doesn't matter at all. There are still Trek productions that make some effort to get it right; Dr. Erin Macdonald has done good work as the science consultant on the recent Secret Hideout shows, and Discovery's fourth season and SNW have had some excellent science alongside some not-so-great science. So there is no uniform standard. Some creators try harder at it than others, and putting effort into a creation is something that should always be appreciated, not dismissed as unimportant.

Am I biased in favor of creators striving to do the best they can instead of assuming it's okay not to care? Hell, yes, and I'm proud of that bias, because it's the standard I hold myself to as a writer. And I don't think it's wrong to want to hold something I love to a high standard, to encourage it to try harder and live up to its best instead of settling for mediocrity.
I realize it's a topic for another thread and forum, but while I realize and respect your preference, I personally struggle to reconcile realism with a show where sound exists in space and space vessels move as if they were seagoing vessels (or on occasion, fighter jets) more often than not on the same 2D plane and with a universal "up" and where relativity doesn't exist except a very select few episodes. Piling tons of detailed, real science on that feels like trying to build a skyscraper using the foundations of a sandcastle.
 
I personally struggle to reconcile realism with a show where sound exists in space and space vessels move as if they were seagoing vessels

The point is that it's not all-or-nothing. All fiction entails some dramatic license, but that isn't the same as making it total nonsense. It's a question of finding the right balance between plausible and fanciful elements. Ideally, you want to ground a story in enough plausibility that the audience is willing to suspend disbelief about the implausibilities. Indeed, the greater the implausibilities, the more important it is to surround them with believable elements to facilitate the audience's suspension of disbelief. After all, it's called willing suspension of disbelief, not mandatory. The audience for a magic act isn't going to believe the assistant is levitating if they can see the wires. You have to make the impossibility at least appear convincing.


Piling tons of detailed, real science on that feels like trying to build a skyscraper using the foundations of a sandcastle.

See, that's where you're getting it backward. The science should be the foundation, the starting point. Roddenberry started by consulting with experts to find out what the scientific reality would be, and then made compromises to the extent that he deemed necessary for the sake of the story, or at least the sake of the budget (for instance using humanoid aliens and Earth-parallel planets because that was the only way the show would be affordable). You have to learn the rules before you can know when it's okay to break them. It was that underlying foundation of credibility that made the more incredible parts acceptable. That was what made TOS and TNG different from the dumber sci-fi shows around them whose creators clearly weren't even trying, and which all pretty much flopped while Star Trek became legend.

Yes, later Trek productions have seriously eroded the credibility of the franchise, but as I said, I refuse to accept that that's a reason to give up trying and settle for mediocrity. On the contrary, it's a reason to try to do better, and it seems to me that the Secret Hideout shows are doing that now, thanks in large part to Erin Macdonald.

Look -- I've been writing Trek fiction professionally for the past two decades, and I've always striven to make it as scientifically plausible as I could, despite the frequently bad science of the franchise I was basing it on. I've aimed for the high standards Roddenberry aspired to, rather than settling for the lowest common denominator. My entire Trek career is proof that it can be done if you care enough to try.


where relativity doesn't exist

On the contrary, the concept of warp drive arises directly from the equations of the General Theory of Relativity. That's why it's called "warp," because it's based in Einstein's concept of gravitation warping the geometry of spacetime, and the principle that the fabric of spacetime can distort or expand faster than light because it's not a material object. Laypeople mistakenly assume the Special Theory of Relativity is the whole thing, even though it's right there in the name that it's just a special case for unaccelerated motion, the simpler case that Einstein solved first because it was easier.
 
Hey!

Speaking as a science fiction writer myself, I feel like there's a middle ground here between "Scientific accuracy trumps writer fiat" and "science should always serve the needs of the story or can be thrown out" since there's a lot of significant wiggle room in Star Trek without destroying a viewer's suspension of disbelief.

For me, the Romulan Supernova plot remains one of the BEST plotlines of Star Trek to ever exist and THE NEEDS OF THE MANY is one of the all-time best Star Trek novels period. The use of it in STAR TREK (2009) not so much but I took that in "pure space opera" terms that JJ Abrams was using it as basically the Death Star. Nevermind that you can destroy a planet very easily from space and something like the Death Star is absolutely unnecessary in "reality."

The Hobus Supernova plot is fine because there's plenty of pre-established things in Star Trek that could explain a planet's sun going supernova prematurely. Alien technology, godlike aliens, and other "space magic." Indeed, the fact it is going to be a Yellow Sun that goes supernova would actually go well with the fact the Romulan government is able to deny it's dying right up until it explodes.

But you have to ACKNOWLEDGE that.

Of course, the Hobus supernova isn't about a supernova. It's about global warming. Climate change denial, authoritarian governments pretending there's no problems in general, and the price that is paid by the locals. If there's a massive drought, DENY IT, as the only people who will suffer are the poor.

However, the Picard retcon does not work well with Spock. Spock using the Red matter to stop the supernova doesn't save anyone because a single supernova does not threaten any other parts of the galaxy so WHY WOULD HE USE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE? You could argue that if he sucked up the Romulus sun the day it's about to explode then it might give a few more days to evacuate the planet but why create a Red Matter wormhole AFTER it has exploded?

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However, the Picard retcon does not work well with Spock. Spock using the Red matter to stop the supernova doesn't save anyone because a single supernova does not threaten any other parts of the galaxy so WHY WOULD HE USE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Yes, it does. A supernova's radiation can endanger neighboring systems for dozens of light-years around. It may have been too late to save Romulus, but if the Red-Matter "black hole" could suck up enough of the exploded star's expanding gases to diminish the intensity of the radiation, it could have reduced the eventual damage to other systems in Romulan space.

Frankly, though, the problem with Spock launching the Red Matter after the star has exploded is inherent to the movie's version of events, so it makes no sense to blame Picard for the movie's nonsense just because it wasn't able to fix it along with the rest.

Another possibility is that the movie misrepresented the timing. If the supernova actually happened just after Spock launched the Red Matter but before it reached the star, that would explain why he launched it and why it nonetheless proved too late.
 
Yes, it does. A supernova's radiation can endanger neighboring systems for dozens of light-years around. It may have been too late to save Romulus, but if the Red-Matter "black hole" could suck up enough of the exploded star's expanding gases to diminish the intensity of the radiation, it could have reduced the eventual damage to other systems in Romulan space.

Frankly, though, the problem with Spock launching the Red Matter after the star has exploded is inherent to the movie's version of events, so it makes no sense to blame Picard for the movie's nonsense just because it wasn't able to fix it along with the rest.


Another possibility is that the movie misrepresented the timing. If the supernova actually happened just after Spock launched the Red Matter but before it reached the star, that would explain why he launched it and why it nonetheless proved too late.

You're probably doing it better than the movies, Christopher, but that's nothing new.

The movie seemed to be treating it like activating the Halo from said franchise. A big galaxy wise death beam that somehow originated in a supernova.

I'm willing to accept explanation as probably the best patch we're ever going to get, though. I also do feel some regret that the Old Expanded Universe died before it managed to catch up with the events of the movie, though.

I was really looking forward to see how the Novelverse handled the Romulan situation with the Typhon Pact.
 
I also do feel some regret that the Old Expanded Universe died before it managed to catch up with the events of the movie, though.

I was really looking forward to see how the Novelverse handled the Romulan situation with the Typhon Pact.

I'm actually glad it didn't, because I like Picard's clarification better than the rationalization I'd come up with for the movie's version. See, Picard had an advantage over the tie-ins, because it was canonical and thus was free to change the canon, making tweaks to the movie's depiction of the supernova to change it into something more coherent. The novels, like the comics, would've been beholden to follow the movie's description to the letter, and thus we wouldn't have been able to retcon the star into Romulus's own sun or adjust the timing so that the supernova was known about years in advance. So whatever we came up with, whether my version or someone else's, would not have been as elegant as Picard's reinterpretation.

Besides, the novels wouldn't have been compatible with Picard's version anyway, since in PIC, the impending nova was known about as early as 2381-2, while in the novels it was still unknown in 2386. A natural phenomenon like a supernova wouldn't have happened differently in two alternate timelines, unless it was artificially triggered. And if it was artificial, then it doesn't make sense that it would take place at the same time in two different timelines, one by a mechanism that gave years of advance warning, the other by a different mechanism that didn't give any warning. It would've made it difficult to perpetuate the conceit that the novels were an alternate timeline to the canon universe rather than simply an alternate fictional narrative. As it stands, we can assume that whatever artificial trigger created the supernova in Prime didn't occur at all in the novel timeline, perhaps because the events of the Borg Invasion prevented it.
 
I'm actually glad it didn't, because I like Picard's clarification better than the rationalization I'd come up with for the movie's version. See, Picard had an advantage over the tie-ins, because it was canonical and thus was free to change the canon, making tweaks to the movie's depiction of the supernova to change it into something more coherent. The novels, like the comics, would've been beholden to follow the movie's description to the letter, and thus we wouldn't have been able to retcon the star into Romulus's own sun or adjust the timing so that the supernova was known about years in advance. So whatever we came up with, whether my version or someone else's, would not have been as elegant as Picard's reinterpretation.

Besides, the novels wouldn't have been compatible with Picard's version anyway, since in PIC, the impending nova was known about as early as 2381-2, while in the novels it was still unknown in 2386. A natural phenomenon like a supernova wouldn't have happened differently in two alternate timelines, unless it was artificially triggered. And if it was artificial, then it doesn't make sense that it would take place at the same time in two different timelines, one by a mechanism that gave years of advance warning, the other by a different mechanism that didn't give any warning. It would've made it difficult to perpetuate the conceit that the novels were an alternate timeline to the canon universe rather than simply an alternate fictional narrative. As it stands, we can assume that whatever artificial trigger created the supernova in Prime didn't occur at all in the novel timeline, perhaps because the events of the Borg Invasion prevented it.

True, I suppose I was largely focused on the fact that the isolated Romulan people would have been a more interesting follow up on the Typhon Pact's politics and the first true stress test for what was never supposed to be the Legion of Doom but a Warsaw Pact at worst. Basically, if the Romulans don't have anything to contribute anymore to the Typhon Pact then would the Tzenkethi and Breen let them twist in the wind? Would this make the Romulan survivors more favorable to the Federation or even more embittered? Would the other Typhon Pact members look aghast as their supposed allies throwing them to the wolves (assuming they did)?

I also note that Star Trek: Online did have its own interesting variation on how the Romulan Empire collapses as well.

Anyway, Picard would never have been able to be reconciled as we know how it goes relationship and development wise but it is interesting to speculate on the broad strokes elements--at least if you're a fan and not a writer who would have to struggle to make it all work without time travel.

:)
 
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