Phase II Blood and Fire Part 2 Grading and Commentary
- Thread starter Tom
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*** SPOILER WARNING ***
I voted 5. This had so much potential as a definitive Star Trek episode, but in the end it fell a bit flat for me.
The good:
The visual effects team keeps raising the bar for fan productions. Every Phase II episode gets better in this department.
I liked the treatment of Peter and Alex's relationship in Part II much better than in Part I. I really saw an emotional connection between the two of them when they said goodbye that just wasn't there in Part I. Part I seemed to be more about the shock value of two gay lovers, while Part II really invested the audience in these two men and their love for one another.
The acting of the regulars is improving every episode. I think James Cawley really has Kirk down now, and John Kelley is great as McCoy. It took me a while to get used to Ben Tolpin as Spock, but by the end of the episode, I had stopped seeing the actor and had started seeing Spock.
The meh:
I was really hoping for more of a meaty role from Denise Crosby. I felt she was a bit shortchanged in BaF. While her character had a great ending, I was left feeling unsatisfied with her character.
The bad:
The motivation for the Klingon attack in Part I is never explained. I'm assuming that they weren't fighting Karg's ship due to the lack of damage to his ship in Part II, but we never got any explanation for the hostilities. We often saw the TOS Klingons attempting to provoke the Enterprise crew into an attack, but unless the stakes were very high (i.e. Elaan of Troyus), we never saw them engage in a full scale battle against Starfleet after the Organian Peace Treaty.
Kirk calling Karg a "Klingon bastard" was a gratuitous rip from TSfS and just didn't seem to fit the circumstances. It really took me out of the episode.
Karg's response to the revelation that branch of Starfleet had attempted a genocidal attack on the Klingon Empire was not realistic. This was an act of war, and should have been responded to as such. For him to just fly away without taking any retaliatory action was very un-Klingon like.
Even with its warts, BaF is an enjoyable outing with the TOS crew and I look forward to continued episodes from the Phase II crew!
I voted 5. This had so much potential as a definitive Star Trek episode, but in the end it fell a bit flat for me.
The good:
The visual effects team keeps raising the bar for fan productions. Every Phase II episode gets better in this department.
I liked the treatment of Peter and Alex's relationship in Part II much better than in Part I. I really saw an emotional connection between the two of them when they said goodbye that just wasn't there in Part I. Part I seemed to be more about the shock value of two gay lovers, while Part II really invested the audience in these two men and their love for one another.
The acting of the regulars is improving every episode. I think James Cawley really has Kirk down now, and John Kelley is great as McCoy. It took me a while to get used to Ben Tolpin as Spock, but by the end of the episode, I had stopped seeing the actor and had started seeing Spock.
The meh:
I was really hoping for more of a meaty role from Denise Crosby. I felt she was a bit shortchanged in BaF. While her character had a great ending, I was left feeling unsatisfied with her character.
The bad:
The motivation for the Klingon attack in Part I is never explained. I'm assuming that they weren't fighting Karg's ship due to the lack of damage to his ship in Part II, but we never got any explanation for the hostilities. We often saw the TOS Klingons attempting to provoke the Enterprise crew into an attack, but unless the stakes were very high (i.e. Elaan of Troyus), we never saw them engage in a full scale battle against Starfleet after the Organian Peace Treaty.
Kirk calling Karg a "Klingon bastard" was a gratuitous rip from TSfS and just didn't seem to fit the circumstances. It really took me out of the episode.
Karg's response to the revelation that branch of Starfleet had attempted a genocidal attack on the Klingon Empire was not realistic. This was an act of war, and should have been responded to as such. For him to just fly away without taking any retaliatory action was very un-Klingon like.
Even with its warts, BaF is an enjoyable outing with the TOS crew and I look forward to continued episodes from the Phase II crew!
Thanks. I had read "soundtrack" as just the *MUSIC* that wasn't final, different from "audio track" in my mind. Glad to hear differently; I feel more relief. Thanks a bunch for releasing in this form anyway.
FWIW, I got the 2nd part from http://www.startrekphase2.de/en/4x05_blood_and_fire_part_2.html
No worries; I'll watch more. It was just a point a friend made that I was re-expressing. I've watched hundreds of films in the "gay theme" genre, foreign and domestic, and am aware of how bleak they tend to be.
I completely understand why the story turned out as it did both inspired by the TOS "Balance of Terror" precedent and the story itself you folks and David Gerrold were trying to tell.
Doesn't mean I can't have liked Alex and wished for a "happy ending" as a change of pace.
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You don't need that for a "happy ending" and, as I later said, I understand the story David was trying to tell.My friend's complaint to me was how "even Trek is giving (gays) an unhappy ending." He thought, and I tried to assure him it wasn't the case, that it was because of all the negative feedback on Part 1. I tried to explain the origin of the story as an AIDS allegory for TNG and why it was the logical ending for this sort of story.
Still, as long as folks (David included) can appreciate how it seems "more of the same," the point is made.
Not to belabor the point or drag us off topic but it didn't occur to me before but he noted even HF, while it had a "gay wedding," ended up putting the two guys in different galaxies. He said it reminded him of the days where, if there was a black character, you knew he'd end up dead.
Anyway, carry on. The effects were great, the attempt to show Peter's loss was well done. I, personally, liked the ultimate end and the "birth" which seemed a hopeful note to end on.
As with another's earlier comment, I also didn't understand the Klingon's motivations.
A
Amaris
Guest
Well, I watched it, and as a completist, am now relieved.
As a Star Trek fan, here's what I thought (if I may be so bold):
Pros:
* A very good story overall. Wished for a happier ending, but real life doesn't always work that way. Nicely done.
* As always, visual effects are excellent.
* John Kelley still kicks ass as Dr. McCoy.
Cons:
* Wasn't feeling the Klingon thing.
* Not enough Bobby Rice. ...um, for purely artistic reasons.
Otherwise, lots of fun, great work, can't wait to see what's next and just to say the whole team is fantastic!
J.
As a Star Trek fan, here's what I thought (if I may be so bold):
Pros:
* A very good story overall. Wished for a happier ending, but real life doesn't always work that way. Nicely done.
* As always, visual effects are excellent.
* John Kelley still kicks ass as Dr. McCoy.
Cons:
* Wasn't feeling the Klingon thing.
* Not enough Bobby Rice. ...um, for purely artistic reasons.
Otherwise, lots of fun, great work, can't wait to see what's next and just to say the whole team is fantastic!
J.
Why was the Copernicus destroyed at the end? Weren't the bloodworms taken care of? I love the design of that ship, hope to see more of that class in future episodes.
More Peter Kirk? Fine, just don't turn this into "Gay Trek."
I think it would have been cool to see Peter Kirk vaporize James Cawley when he had the phaser pointing at him....after all, they killed off Chekov and brought him back with no explanation. At least they could have done that for a "blooper" reel.
The Klingon scenes? Now those were some laid back Klingons...just sitting there quiet and watching. Didn't seem to convey the idea of "Klingons."
Don't care for the actress playing Uhura...what happened to the other girl? She was much better.
The effects were top notch as always. Looking forward to future episodes.
More Peter Kirk? Fine, just don't turn this into "Gay Trek."
I think it would have been cool to see Peter Kirk vaporize James Cawley when he had the phaser pointing at him....after all, they killed off Chekov and brought him back with no explanation. At least they could have done that for a "blooper" reel.
The Klingon scenes? Now those were some laid back Klingons...just sitting there quiet and watching. Didn't seem to convey the idea of "Klingons."
Don't care for the actress playing Uhura...what happened to the other girl? She was much better.
The effects were top notch as always. Looking forward to future episodes.
Thanks for the input. We always take it to heart and it can help us make a better product in future episodes.
Interesting observation about the Copernicus. Could it have been saved at the last minute by pulling it out by the scruff of its neck right after the bloodworms were taken care of? Maybe--but Kirk had received orders from Starfleet to destroy the Copernicus and all aboard. He violated those orders to save the people; I guess he didn't feel he needed to compound the violation by saving the Copernicus itself.
I think having Peter Kirk as a continuing character will turn our show into "Gay Trek" just as much as greater use of Nichelle Nichols whould have turned the show into "Black Trek."
I think Julienne Irons was a fine Lieutenant Uhura. But she had four episodes with us--which means four opportunities to improve her acting and characterization in the role. This was Kim Stinger's first outing as Uhura, and I think that we'll see that Kim grows into her role. Having seen three other episodes filmed after this one, I can tell you I've seen great growth in her acting.
More about Kim at her website here:
http://www.kimstinger.com/
Considering the much-touted claim of "delay rather than poor-quality," I think a little god-natured snarkiness is not completely out of order.
Much of the editing is obviously rushed and the sound is simply terrible is several places. Yes, this was admitted up front and yes it's still better than 99% of the other amateur web films. But if it's all going to be fixed in a few days (as stated in earlier posts), why not wait those few days and release one good clean copy with no excuses or explanations required?
It can't be out of fear of disappointing the fans. After all this time, we'd understand another week or so. Especially (as has been said so often) since it's free to begin with.
Your approach would have been a good way, too. I'm sure there are advantages and disadvantages whichever approach we take to the release: releasing the episode not to the quality of our liking or releasing the episode not at the time of our liking. I don't know that there's much empirical evidence indicating which approach would have been better.
I'm not sure when you say "we'd understand another week or so" that you can or should speak for all fans. They might not all think like you.
"Blood and Fire, Part 2" has been screened at conventions for over a year now--sans visual effects. Aside from the visual effects that have been dropped into the cut over the past year as they have become available, I believe the edits done on the live action principal photography stuff has been pretty much unchanged for over a year. So if indeed the editing isn't all it's cracked up to be (and you might be right), it's probably not because it was rushed. There has been plenty of time to do it. (Unless you mean the editing on the visual effects; unlike the principal photography, that actually is fairly new and was done under the gun.)
Aside from the poor sound in the later acts and "rushed" editing, what did you think of the episode? I value your input.
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First, I would like to say, thank you for the Trek. It is a wonderful gift, and it will be loved and bring joy to hundreds of thousands of fans, if not millions of fans.
Secondly, I personally am waiting for the finals on the Sound. Ok, ok, I'm the same person who makes a copy on my DVD of the season ending cliffhangers on regular TV and doesn't watch them until the day before the season opener... and I haven't yet watched Part I, so that's easy for me to say. But then, no one held a gun to anyone's head on this... at least as far as I know.
When the download page says it's final, I am expecting a delight. You only get to watch a show for the first time once, and I want it to be the way you want it.
Finally, I think it was wonderful of you to release it as is for those who chose to watch it before it's final. That's a choice. Snarkiness, in my experience, is more common when something is free, strange as that is. Earthlings are a strange species...
Didn't come across as very good-natured to me, but I'll take your word for it.
As I said, better than all the other amateur efforts. The script and acting are equal to any ScyFy original movie, and the VFX were 1000 times better.
Sorry. Must be my accent.
Just got through watching it. I waited to watch Part 1 until Part 2 was out as I hate cliffhangers.
The visual quality of the show continues to be top notch. I never cease to be a amazed at the work you guys put out.
The acting of those who have been doing their parts continues to improve. Although, James, if you're reading this, be careful. I think Bobby may have done a better you than you do, lol. That scene was priceless.
As for the story itself, I have mixed emotions. On the plus side you guys continue to prove that a quality story can be written that exists within the known Trek universe. The plot lines for everything from TSAMD on has been wonderful compared to the fluff and meatless drivel we saw in the theaters this year.
As some have said, the Klingon angle in this seemed to be something that was just sort of there with no real purpose. Didn't take anything away from the story, but didn't really add to it either.
I agree that Denise Crosby's character could have been better fleshed out, though she did finally get a worthwhile goodbye. Something she never quite got in TNG.
Other than that, my only real disappointment was the sad nature of the ending. Not so much in the sadness of it (though the romantic in me was hoping for a happy ending), but in it's lack of originality. We saw it coming before they ever left the Enterprise. A different outcome would have been a nice twist.
All in all, though, a great addition to the Trek story.
I am kind of curious, though. If the blood worms attack red blood cells, what interest would they have in Spock?
The visual quality of the show continues to be top notch. I never cease to be a amazed at the work you guys put out.
The acting of those who have been doing their parts continues to improve. Although, James, if you're reading this, be careful. I think Bobby may have done a better you than you do, lol. That scene was priceless.
As for the story itself, I have mixed emotions. On the plus side you guys continue to prove that a quality story can be written that exists within the known Trek universe. The plot lines for everything from TSAMD on has been wonderful compared to the fluff and meatless drivel we saw in the theaters this year.
As some have said, the Klingon angle in this seemed to be something that was just sort of there with no real purpose. Didn't take anything away from the story, but didn't really add to it either.
I agree that Denise Crosby's character could have been better fleshed out, though she did finally get a worthwhile goodbye. Something she never quite got in TNG.
Other than that, my only real disappointment was the sad nature of the ending. Not so much in the sadness of it (though the romantic in me was hoping for a happy ending), but in it's lack of originality. We saw it coming before they ever left the Enterprise. A different outcome would have been a nice twist.
All in all, though, a great addition to the Trek story.
I am kind of curious, though. If the blood worms attack red blood cells, what interest would they have in Spock?
When the script was originally written, the boarding party consisted of Riker, Geordi, Tasha, Eakins, Freeman, and Hodel. I think when it came time to figure out which classic Trek characters should assume these roles, the fact that Mister Spock has (mostly) green blood was likely overlooked.
Of course, Mister Spock does have human blood elements, so he was likely at risk. Also, just as was mentioned in "Miri," Spock became a carrier of a disease that could infect his crewmates, even if he himself didn't contract the disease. So even if he wasn't personally at risk from the bloodworms, he couldn't be allowed back to the ship to infect others.
I figured that they probably felt they needed to lighten the mood so that it didn't end on quite the same note as Balance of Terror.
I thought maybe the original story might have called for Romulans since it was a TNG story. No reason for Klingons to have been there in a TNG story either.
Was there a gay couple in the original story as well? I remembered hearing quite some time ago that Paramount pulled the plug on BAF because they thought it was too controversial and might come too close to AIDS for their comfort.
That is as good an explanation as any. Thanks for the response.
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