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Phase II: Blood and Fire Part 1 Released!! (SPOILERS)

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I just saw Ashton Kutcher kiss Stifler on 'Dude Where's My Car' and while it was disgusting (in my 'phobic opinion) it looked real enough, so I have to go with the 'acting'.
BTW- I LOVE phase II and really enjoyed this last production. Was McCoy a huge dick or was it just me?


Mr. Gerrold had this to say about the last line in your post. He has authorized me to reprint it here:

McCoy's anger was deliberately specified in the writing -- he's been thrown from one crisis to the next throughout the entire episode and his anger is based on what I have seen in real doctors who care so much for their patients that they become impatient with everything that slows them down.

--R
 
As far as downloading the episodes, I’ve downloaded, and burned to DVD, every episode of New Voyages as they’ve come out with no problem. The same for “Of Gods and Men”. It’s impossible to stop someone from getting a copy of a video posted to the Internet. If a download is not possible, a screen capture is.
As for editing, when I have a video, from a download, TV, wherever, I’ll edit it in any way I please.

I discussed your post with David Gerrold and he had this to say. He has authorized me to reprint it here:

Personally, I would prefer that people not re-edit the episode at home. I would also like it if they would not rip pages out of the books I write. And while I'm asking, please don't carve your initials in my furniture either. Okay?

--R
 
James has already said all future releases will be streaming only, for exactly the reasons stated.
This is an interesting point...

We have fans taking something that is not theirs and making something of it now worried about other fans taking something that is not theirs and making something of it.

I may only be dealing with Trek Tech stuff in my endeavors, but it occurred to me early on that without an actual CBS license to distribute derivative works of Trek I couldn't rightfully claim any great amount of copyright privilege. Nor (I realized) should I want to.

To that end, I have shared my works under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike license.

This action by Cawley would be like George Lucas refusing to release Star Wars Episodes II & III anywhere else other than theaters because of Episode I: The Phantom Edit. But it is his choice.



Mr. Gerrold had this to say about the scene. He has authorized me to reprint it here:

After 40 some-odd years of Trek portraying heterosexual relationships at length, in all possible situations, and in a variety of positions and couplings, across more species and races and sentient beings than I can possibly list here, I think that it is not overdoing it to spend four minutes with a couple of men in love.

--R
My answer is pretty much the same as before (and you have my authorization to reprint it):
In the 79 TOS episodes we didn't see this much time spent on a coupling of any species or race or sentient beings. But if you would like to prove the point, please provide references to such encounters throughout all of Trek that were given that length of screen time. This has nothing to do with the coupling of men, it has to do with the director/writer moving too long in the same place.

And please take the time to post your response yourself rather than having a minion do it for you.​
 
Hmmm--David Gerrold's minion . . . I'm sure he'd like the idea that he's important enough to have minions . . . I just don't think I have given him enough dark chocolate for him to consider me as such.

I suggest if you'd like to discuss your points with him directly, you engage him on the boards at Star Trek Phase II. He is engaging in lively conversation there. At his request I have quoted him from that board in an effort to address points brought up here.

All are welcome, minion, fence-sitter or detractors alike.

Cheers!

--R

Edited to include the link: http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/forum/
 
I suggest if you'd like to discuss your points with him directly, you engage him on the boards at Star Trek Phase II. He is engaging in lively conversation there. At his request I have quoted him from that board in an effort to address points brought up here.

All are welcome, minion, fence-sitter or detractors alike.
Well, I suggest that if he would like to discuss my points made here that he post them here.

After all, all are welcome here too... minions, fence-sitters and detractors alike. :D

:rolleyes:

Maybe you should provide him a link though. :techman:
 
James has already said all future releases will be streaming only, for exactly the reasons stated.
This is an interesting point...

We have fans taking something that is not theirs and making something of it now worried about other fans taking something that is not theirs and making something of it.

I may only be dealing with Trek Tech stuff in my endeavors, but it occurred to me early on that without an actual CBS license to distribute derivative works of Trek I couldn't rightfully claim any great amount of copyright privilege. Nor (I realized) should I want to.

To that end, I have shared my works under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike license.

This action by Cawley would be like George Lucas refusing to release Star Wars Episodes II & III anywhere else other than theaters because of Episode I: The Phantom Edit. But it is his choice.



Mr. Gerrold had this to say about the scene. He has authorized me to reprint it here:

After 40 some-odd years of Trek portraying heterosexual relationships at length, in all possible situations, and in a variety of positions and couplings, across more species and races and sentient beings than I can possibly list here, I think that it is not overdoing it to spend four minutes with a couple of men in love.

--R
My answer is pretty much the same as before (and you have my authorization to reprint it):
In the 79 TOS episodes we didn't see this much time spent on a coupling of any species or race or sentient beings. But if you would like to prove the point, please provide references to such encounters throughout all of Trek that were given that length of screen time. This has nothing to do with the coupling of men, it has to do with the director/writer moving too long in the same place.

And please take the time to post your response yourself rather than having a minion do it for you.​

Look, I appreciate your enthusiasm for Star Trek and even your impatience with anything that doesn't live up to the standard. I'm the same way.

I don't have minions. What I have is a very full writing schedule.

Because I directed the Phase II episode, "Blood And Fire," I've participated in the discussions on the Phase II forums. But I know that there are at least a dozen other online forums where discussions of the episode are going on. I don't have itme to participate in them all.

Rich is a good friend and one of the hard-working folks who helped make BaF. He asked if he could quote me in response to some of the discussions here. I said yes. I thought it would be useful for folks here to have access to accurate information.

Here's what I've said elsewhere:

All of us worked for over a year on this two-part episode. Despite the limitations of budget, equipment, time, money, and whatever, we approached it with the same seriousness as if it were a genuine film production. That’s why so many of the aspects of this work so well — the 200 people who worked so hard on this approached it with enormous dedication and commitment and passion and enthusiasm. Most of them worked much harder and much longer hours than I’ve seen many professional crews work.

All of us involved with BAF have been following the comments on this and other boards. I personally have read hundreds of comments from fans. Many have been thoughtful and insightful. I’m grateful for that. I’ve also been amused at the few comments that make inaccurate assumptions.

I’ll give you an example. The dark lighting, that many have written about, was a deliberate decision to create a different mood, as well as to demonstrate that the Enterprise was functioning on reduced power because it had been seriously injured in battle. The dark lighting wasn’t a failure, it was a major effort on behalf of Dave Berry, the DP. Another example is a fan who complained about colored gels over the lights, saying that wasn’t good lighting — but that was EXACTLY the kind of lighting that Gerry Finnerman and Bob Justman designed for the original series and Dave Berry worked very hard to duplicate it.

That’s just one example of the kind of care that each and every crew member put into this production. Now multiply that by at least 200. We had a 96 page script. We shot the bulk of it in 14 days. We couldn’t have done that without a very detailed battle-plan. We didn’t just run in, point the camera, and shoot stuff that we thought was a good idea at the time. We spent long weeks and months ahead of time debating every scene and every line of dialog, asking ourselves if it was the best we could do and if it truly represented the SPIRIT of Star Trek. (While I assumed that I might personally have a pretty good knowledge of Gene Roddenberry’s original intentions, I also took the precaution of running the script past DC Fontana before proceeding.)

Does this mean the final product is perfect? Of course not. James Cawley and I have already had discussions about a director’s version that will be cut together as a feature film, not as two separate episodes. We’ve also talked about tweaking the pacing of one scene, cutting one line in another, restoring a couple lines in a third place, and reshooting one smal piece with Uhura that both of us think could be more dramatic.

But even if we stopped right here today, I can tell you that the entire team is very proud of what we have accomplished so far. All of us are very grateful for the enthusiasm of the audience. We love the feedback, we love the passion — because after everything is said and done, we are YOU. We are Star Trek fans too, just like you — and this episode is our way of showing it.

The single most important point I would make today is that you have only seen the first half of the story. This isn't just a horror story, it's a relationship story, and Part I has set up some very big payoffs in Part II.
 
As a gay man I found the scene excessive in length. I have no problem with the content (probably obviously), but, like the balance of the episode, it was too wordy and padded and there was no economy. The scenes were soap-opera scale instead of TV drama. THAT is my objection.

That said, if people want to re-edit this because they cringe at two men showing each other affection whereas they gobble up acts of wanton violence (like the guy being eaten alive), then I respectfully submit they have a screw or thirteen loose.
 
Look, I appreciate your enthusiasm for Star Trek and even your impatience with anything that doesn't live up to the standard. I'm the same way.
"Impatience"?

If I've been impatient with anything it has been with the interpretation of my original comments as being about the same sex relationship rather than the length of the scene. I would have been making the same comments if all things being equal, Freeman had been a woman. It was excessive and didn't serve either the story or plot to be that length.

While we're on that subject, yeah, I found USS Intrepid's death scene a little long and gruesome for a TOS episode too. Maybe that is the type of thing that people are going for these days... but I found it excessive.

...

The single most important point I would make today is that you have only seen the first half of the story. This isn't just a horror story, it's a relationship story, and Part I has set up some very big payoffs in Part II.
I'm not sure where you are going with all that other stuff, but I'm fine with the story so far as is. Maybe you should quote exactly what I said that you were addressing with all that.

As for fan productions, I'm assuming that the Phase II experience isn't that different from the Exeter experience (which I contributed a small part to). I surely didn't need all that added detailing.

But I think you should take McCoy's advice on how to deal with this stuff...
"Yeah, he's Peter Kirk, but you treat him like everyone else."
And attempting not to move too long in the same place.

Good words... you should listen to the person who wrote them. ;)

And most importantly... stop taking criticism as a blanket rejection of the show!
 
James has already said all future releases will be streaming only, for exactly the reasons stated.
This is an interesting point...

We have fans taking something that is not theirs and making something of it now worried about other fans taking something that is not theirs and making something of it.
Can't speak for anyone else, but my objection has nothing to do with copyright, and everything to do with the idea of someone else thinking they have the right to censor and/or deface someone else's work. Regardless of what you may think of the relative worth, or the creative choices, hacking up someone else's work against their wishes is in pretty poor taste.
 
James has already said all future releases will be streaming only, for exactly the reasons stated.
This is an interesting point...

We have fans taking something that is not theirs and making something of it now worried about other fans taking something that is not theirs and making something of it.
Can't speak for anyone else, but my objection has nothing to do with copyright, and everything to do with the idea of someone else thinking they have the right to censor and/or deface someone else's work. Regardless of what you may think of the relative worth, or the creative choices, hacking up someone else's work against their wishes is in pretty poor taste.

Exactly the point I was making when calling it censorship, pure and simple. Copyrights aside, altering a work to delete something found "offensive" is censorship and displaying an "abridged" work without permission of the original creator (s) is a huge foul.
 
^^^Guys who edit others videos before showing them to other people are akin to those who hacked the privates off classical statues because they didn't want to see them.
 
*sigh*

Leave it to Trek fans to destroy every good thing that comes their way...

If you have the ability to edit downloads (and pretty much anyone with a copy of Windows Movie Maker does), then couldn't you at least put a tag at the beginning saying "This video has been edited from the original. To see the film as released, please go to..."?

Better still, just appreciate the concept of artistic integrity and leave it as it was created. The ability to do a thing (such as editing another's work without permission) does not confer the right to do it. Doing such things lowers you to the level of (on a much grander scale) the drunken soldiers who used an artillery piece to shoot the nose off the Sphinx, just because they could.

I understand James Cawley's anger and frustration right now, and I empathize, but I hope he'll reconsider the streaming only plan. I run the film festivals for a number of smaller (100-300 member) conventions in the southeast, and in many of these rural areas, the bandwidth isn't available to watch such films. It's only because I download them from a high-speed connection during off-hours and burn them to DVD that these fans get to see them. These will be the people who will get hurt, not the jerks who will find a hack that lets them do what they want to anyway.

I once saw a sig file that read, "Star Trek fans will not only look the gift horse in the mouth, but kick it in the balls before sending the poor thing away in tears."

Sadly, the people who savage another person's work, rather than trying to do something original and better, are just that kind of peron.
 
Hey, David!

Glad to see you posting here.

I wouldn't mind being one of your minions. I respect your work and admire you greatly. Heck, that old paperback of "Yesterday's Children" that you autographed for me back at the Trek con in NYC in '74, and again at Worldcon in Anaheim (was it '96?) is still one of my prized possessions, and I still bemoan that we have not been able to see a Star Wolf TV series. (Well, I don't just moan. I gripe and bitch, too.)

Thanks for a good ep. I'm looking forward to the second half.


Tony
 
Hey, David!

Glad to see you posting here.

I wouldn't mind being one of your minions. I respect your work and admire you greatly. Heck, that old paperback of "Yesterday's Children" that you autographed for me back at the Trek con in NYC in '74, and again at Worldcon in Anaheim (was it '96?) is still one of my prized possessions, and I still bemoan that we have not been able to see a Star Wolf TV series. (Well, I don't just moan. I gripe and bitch, too.)

Thanks for a good ep. I'm looking forward to the second half.


Tony

Thank you, Tony.

Let's hope this year will bring something exciting in the Star Wolf arena too.

dg
 
I've got better things to do than to pickle myself in front of a TV a few hours a night. Besides, I live a 24 hour life... I'm not going to try to remember that some show is on at some time each week and arrange my life around it.

My advice to both you and your child is to find better things to do with the hours you are wasting on TV. As you have pointed out, it has already made you an indiscriminate viewer. :eek:

Jeezus. Look you were the one criticising the production for making "extreme" choices. My point was that compared to current broadcast television, Phase II is not extreme in its relationship portrayal and you are overreacting.

As stated my child doesn't watch any TV; I watch very little, but I've seen enough examples of current television to know that the "love scene" in Phase II, whilst possibly overlong for some people's taste is G-rated in 2008/09.
 
I enjoyed the episode fully, but was a bit uncomfortable with the length and content of the cabin scene. It did help me to do some introspection about the root of that discomfort, and I'd like to think that was the point.

For the rest of the discussion for the last two pages, the differences between us are just those...differences. If some viewers wish to edit out a certain scene, is it really that big of a deal? Is it really "savaging" the work? I don't think so, and I can understand why some people would feel a desire to edit a bit. But that's just my opinion, and I'm sure some posting here disagree with it. And that's fine, also.

IDIC is a wonderful ideal that we should all strive for, but it shouldn't include pushing and pushing that your particular viewpoint is somehow more "right" that someone else's. Disagreement is natural, but I hope all here can agree that each of us are entitled to his or her viewpoint (even LightInspire :eek:). I'm sure many have noticed the repeated desperate attempts to get him to acknowledge his "wrong" viewpoint have led to more arguments. A simple "I disagree, and here's why..." can often be more effective when submitted in an earnest manner.

To all involved with the creation of this episode and Phase II in general...many thanks. You have revived a part of my childhood that I forgot how much I missed. Thank you will never be enough to express how you have impacted my little world. You are, indeed, Star Trek...in every sense of the words.
 
Jeezus. Look you were the one criticising the production for making "extreme" choices. My point was that compared to current broadcast television, Phase II is not extreme in its relationship portrayal and you are overreacting.
The standard by which I was making my comments was TOS. This had nothing to do with your parenting skills or how much television you (or I) watch... all of which was brought into this by you. What you subject your daughter to is none of my concern, nor are your viewing habits.

Maybe it would be better if you left those personal details about your home life out of this... and reconsider the twisting of what I had originally said too.

In fact I'll quote what I originally posted to help you...
So you're saying that that 4 minute scene couldn't have been done in a less voyeuristic fashion? That was more than we ever saw in TOS between couples of the opposite sex... unless you are telling us that this type of thing between male and female characters is something that you guys have already filmed in future episodes.

Frankly, the nearly the first minute and the last minute of the scene were gratuitous. The middle two or so minutes would have been enough to get the audience to understand the relationship. The fact that the two characters are committed enough to get married should have been enough (it was for Angela Martine and Robert Tomlinson in Balance of Terror).

The question you guys should have been asking yourselves is whether you want to portray lust or affection. In romance (no matter the gender of the couple), less is more.


But other than my old fashion sensibilities on the portrayal of relationships in Trek, you guys did a great job in my opinion. Keep up the good work!
:techman:
Now, if you were looking for a fight, just say so and I'll be happy to oblige. :D
 
As for editing, when I have a video, from a download, TV, wherever, I’ll edit it in any way I please.

Just because you have the power to do a thing doesn't mean you have the right to do a thing.

I co-wrote "Blood and Fire," and you're entitled to criticize anything I write and put out for public consumption but not to change it. Any creator who doesn't make something explicitly for editing by others has the right to not have it tampered with without permission.

If you're going to do such a thing, it would at least ethically behoove you to inform your friends:

"I can't handle the original version of this, and I've decided on your behalf (even though you're adults) that you cannot, either, and I've unilaterally decided that my judgment should overrule that of the creators, and that you are unable to exert the same enlightened judgment that I can, and so I've substituted my principles for your own. ...

"Oh, and by the way, why don't you let me wipe your butt for you, too, because that stuff's unpleasant, and to remain morally consistent I should do you the favor of taking care of that s--t, as well."

Offended? Hmmm. I guess now you know how I feel.

--/carlos
 
Oh please. Now I know why TNG never filmed this episode (if it was written as shown for Phase II). Trek episodes DO NOT dedicate that much film time to guest stars/lower ranks. The bed scene was overly long and may have been acceptable if it were cut by a fair amount. Okay, we get it, they're in love and they're the same sex. Neither acted like Starfleet Officers while on duty. How many episodes of TNG would have spent 5 minutes on Ensign Hoople from deck 7 making out with a same or opposite sex partner? None. That's the problem, they overkilled it BECAUSE it was same-sex lovers. It's not Star Trek, sorry.

I discussed your post with David Gerrold and he asked me to post this on his behalf:

I think it's worth pointing out that this is NOT THE SCRIPT WRITTEN FOR TNG. In that scriopt, there were only four lines of dialog to hint that the two crewmembers were lovers. Four lines of dialog, nothing more.

When Carlos Pedraza adapted the script for Phase II, the relationship scenes were specifically expanded because Phase II is making Peter Kirk a continuing character. It is not uncommon for a TV series to spend some extra time with a new character when introducing him.


--R

Thanks for the relay, and now I see David is a member here so:

For the person above who asked if I saw "LOWER DECKS", yes I did, and it was a one-off episode (for TNG) and was about their insecurities and aspirations.

Now, David said he had 4 lines in the original "hinting" at the relationship. I say even more than that was fine, even the bedroom scene was okay, except, it was too long, too soap opera-y. David (or someone) said it was long because Peter is going to be a continuing character, fine. We didn't see Chapel or Rand making out for 5 minutes in any episode with anyone, let alone a possible recurring character (Reilly? :) ). It just looked like someone with an agenda cramming the bedroom scene down peoples throats, and it now looks like it was NOT DG's idea. TNG should have done this episode, the way David wrote it, showing that it is one of infinite combinations of the many possible "couplings" of the crew on the Enterprise. The way the scene was (re-)written screams, "Look at us, we're gay, we love each other, watch us kiss and act like a heterosexual couple!" just for the sake of it (or titilation of a section of the audience). You're gay, fine, report for duty, man your station, go on a landing party, then go off duty and live your life, just like the non-gay crew members do. That's equality.
 
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