Phase II: Blood and Fire Part 1 Released!! (SPOILERS)
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At best, it's an insult; at worst, it's vandalism. Reminds me of those religious nuts who think they can edit Hollywood movies and resell them to their sheltered clientele; which has probably already been mentioned, but I haven't read the whole Thread.
Welcome to TrekBBS, DG. I fondly remember your columns in Starlog.
I don't think it has been mentioned, and you're quite right. Flagrant censorship of other peoples creative works without their permission or even knowledge, and presenting the results as the original work is despicable behaviour. Copyright issues aside, it is at best unethical, and at worst borderline fascist (yeh, I went there
'Godwin'd' image me if you so desire). Altering work because you don't like the content is plain wrong. Don't like it? Don't watch it.
Just wanna say thanks to David for all the entertainment over the years (okay, that's my standard statement to any celebrity I meet, but it got me a nice smile and half-hug from Suzi Plakson).
I hope the company continues letting us download the episodes, and just ignore the folks who feel the need to edit them for their own use. I'm sure it's not common enough to require punitive action. And if you think about it, it's probably not any different than a network editing a film for time and content to meet a TV slot standards.
In my case, my wife dislikes watching things on computer screens (the chair's pretty uncomfortable after a while). So I've been burning the episodes to DVD to share with her. She'll never see another if it goes streaming-only.
I hope the company continues letting us download the episodes, and just ignore the folks who feel the need to edit them for their own use. I'm sure it's not common enough to require punitive action. And if you think about it, it's probably not any different than a network editing a film for time and content to meet a TV slot standards.
In my case, my wife dislikes watching things on computer screens (the chair's pretty uncomfortable after a while). So I've been burning the episodes to DVD to share with her. She'll never see another if it goes streaming-only.
I am glad to hear that they will at least be doing streaming video. I do not think that will take care of the problem because you can record streaming video with any number of programs. Perhaps they could do something like Itunes does where the video is encoded in such away that it can only be viewed as is. Then they could still offer downloads and not have to worry about the small number of people who want to edit. Of course there is probably some way around that to that I don't know about.
I have to second and third the sentiments on having David Gerrold post here. Thanks for dropping by.
Thank you. As I have said elsewhere, as a Star Trek fan, I feel an obligation to the rest of the fan community to be accessible to answer questions.
Bob Justman used to come to conventions to thank the fans for their enthusiasm because their enthusiasm was the fuel that actually powered the Enterprise and so I do the same thing too.
I've appreciated the thoughtfulness of many of the comments here. Thanks.
What he said, David, what he said. And if not on-screen, another Star Wolf book wouldn't go unappreiated either, sir.
In any case, congratulations on Blood and Fire, it's a fine addition to the Star Trek universe. In my opinion, folks are making too big a deal about "that scene".
And thanks for all the entertainment over the years.
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In truth that does have a lot to do with copyrights.
Copyright is, literally, the right to exercise control over copying
editing, and distribution of one's work.
Copyright law is written to protect those fundamental human
rights, not just the economic aspects of creative work.
I stand corrected. My objection, and the reasons for it however, remain.
I did not care for that scene but I have no right to change it because of my feelings. There are plenty of scenes I have not liked in movies TV ect, over the years. Because I liked the movie or show or story I enjoyed what I have watched or read anyway. Those other folks need to get over themselves and grow up. These folks are bringing us good trek most better than what we have seen on tv or in movies in years. So take it for what it is. I hope you guys will keep downloads avalable(sp) as it is the only way I get to watch them. Thanks again to the creators and good luck in all future projects.
Now, hold up for a sec.
I'm not going to say that fan editing is right or wrong. Honestly, it's never occurred to me as a moral question before today. However, I see some truth in the argument Mr. Cook, Mr. Gerrold, Mr. Cawley, and others are making. For the moment, I remain undecided.
However, didn't director Jack Marshall from ST:NV do his own fan edit of Star Trek Five a while back? And wouldn't that make the outrage at least a little bit hypocritical coming from the NV team?
It wouldn't change the rightness or wrongness of the action, but, if this is something NV's people have done before, I don't really think they have the right to demand that no one else does it. On the other hand, one could argue that there's a distinct moral difference between editing out the dumb parts of a mediocre movie and editing out scenes of homosexual affection on the grounds of perceived objectionability.
I dunno. Seemed salient, though.
EDIT: Found the link to the fanedit: http://fanedit.org/44/
On another note, I personally prefer streaming. I'd love for streaming to get higher priority than dl'ing... though I know that's selfish of me.
I'm not going to say that fan editing is right or wrong. Honestly, it's never occurred to me as a moral question before today. However, I see some truth in the argument Mr. Cook, Mr. Gerrold, Mr. Cawley, and others are making. For the moment, I remain undecided.
However, didn't director Jack Marshall from ST:NV do his own fan edit of Star Trek Five a while back? And wouldn't that make the outrage at least a little bit hypocritical coming from the NV team?
It wouldn't change the rightness or wrongness of the action, but, if this is something NV's people have done before, I don't really think they have the right to demand that no one else does it. On the other hand, one could argue that there's a distinct moral difference between editing out the dumb parts of a mediocre movie and editing out scenes of homosexual affection on the grounds of perceived objectionability.
I dunno. Seemed salient, though.
EDIT: Found the link to the fanedit: http://fanedit.org/44/
On another note, I personally prefer streaming. I'd love for streaming to get higher priority than dl'ing... though I know that's selfish of me.
As far as I know, Jack Marshall no longer has any affiliation with NV/PII and hasn't since the second episode.
Well put. As viewers we have the right to decide if we like a scene or want to watch it. That does not give us the right to change the content to suit our own taste before passing it along to someone else. If you want to give someone a heads up about a scene that might be objectionable, fine. But if you're going to start messing with the content, well, I think that's about like going to an art gallery and drawing mustaches on the paintings.
What about an art gallery that gives away free souvenir prints of their favorite works, and when you get home you draw silly mustaches on your own copy? I think that's more like what's happening here.
Regarding copyright, I get this question alot with STOGAM. CBS has full copyright over anything Star Trek used in the production, however all ORIGINAL material and content is under the copyright of Fan film production company (in this case Cawley's company) and there arrangements with content contributers (Like David and Carlos) so each fan film has joint copyrights, both companys would have to come to an agreement before any profit can be made. People who say the Phase II has no legal rights to there film and fans can do what they want to them are DEAD Wrong. Phase II has every legal right to it, they are just very limited to what they can do because CBS has copyright over elements in the film.
I agree, but what if you draw the silly mustaches on the paintings and hand them out without telling anyone that the silly mustaches were added on by you? That's what the one poster was doing. I agree that once you take it home, it's yours, to do with as you please (so long as you don't distribute it). However, it does raise the question of why you would take the product home if you didn't like it to begin with.
An interesting discussion, thank you all.
We can discuss and debate the intricacies of copyright law at length and probably produce a lot of useful insight and understanding. I am not a lawyer and I appreciate the quest for accuracy. But there's a much more immediate point that I would like to make and I think it might provide another useful way to look at the whole issue.
Yes, the gay characters were put into the episode for a purpose. Multiple purposes, in fact. Most important, the love scene, the kiss, specific lines of dialog, all of it is part of a larger theme: a portrait of family relationships. Peter and Alex are beginning a family, while Peter and Kirk are an estranged family, and Kirk has a unique relationship with Spock which has elements of family, and then there's Kirk's relationship with the Enterprise and her crew -- the entire episode is about family, as you will see when Part II is released.
When some people talk about cutting those scenes, they are talking about cutting out an integral part of the story. We put them in for a purpose, not just a "political agenda" as some people have accused, but to make a much more important point about FAMILY. Taking out the heart of Peter and Alex's storyline defeats the purpose. It takes out the key element that ties all of those other separate and diverse elements together. (As you will see in Part II. If you thought Part I was harrowing....) Taking out those scenes makes the whole episode incomprehensible. Taking out that storyline destroys the opportunity for this episode to challenge the audience the way Trek is supposed to.
So now, having said that as prelude, I want to repost here something I've already posted in two other places:
I have always believed that all of us, gay or straight, black or white, Christian or Jew or Muslim or atheist or whatever, old or young or somewhere in between, American or African or Asian or whatever — all of us are alone in this together. We are human beings, on a whirling little speck of dust, halfway out the spiral arm of a mostly insignificant galaxy lost somewhere among the trillions of galaxy in a universe so vast we don’t have the language to even begin evoking its scale. We, all of us, are all we have. This is it. Just us.
What we have in common — all of us — is far more similar than any differences we think we have. We all want clean air and clean water, a warm place to sleep, and decent food. We all want to be able to take care of our families, raise our children to be good people, make sure they have excellent educations, and all the necessary health care to keep them resistant to disease and infirmity. We all want good fulfilling work. We all want security for ourselves, our families, our communities, our nation. We all want a chance to do better for ourselves and the people around us. Given that we all have so much in common, I think the two silliest things in the world to argue over are how we say our prayers and who we fall in love with.
Instead of arguing about the right way to pray, we should be thrilled that others are seeking a spiritual path. Instead of arguing about the right way to fall in love, we should be celebrating that love is possible and joyous and that so many people on this planet are able to achieve it and that so many more are hungry for it. We should be cherishing our diversities and learning from each other.
Speaking directly to this episode, when the Phase II team set out to film Blood And Fire, we knew that some people would have a problem with it. We argued and debated and discussed and considered the gay characters for the better part of a year. And ultimately, we kept coming back to several key points:
First, this is a promise that Gene Roddenberry himself made, in public, more than once, to Star Trek’s gay fans. This was a promise we wanted to keep.
Second, it wasn’t enough to just have these characters say that they’re gay in a couple lines of dialog, that was a cop-out; because after we considered everything we were about to put them through, we felt that if we truly honored and respected the people these characters represented, we would give them a moment of genuine intimacy, a genuine “I love you” and a kiss.
Third, we’ve had forty years of heterosexual smooching in Star Trek, including Kirk dry-humping a green-skinned Orion girl in the upcoming movie. Given that a significant percentage of Star Trek’s fans identify themselves as gay or bisexual or having had such relationships, even 4 minutes of the “silliness” (as you characterized it) was probably not out of line.
And finally, after we made that commitment to the characters and thought about it some more and discussed it some more, we recognized the very real possibility that some viewers might be uncomfortable. And that’s when we realized that was the most important reason why we had to include the gay characters in this episode.
So to those people who squirm, let me say: WE MADE THIS EPISODE SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU. We made this episode just for you — and for everybody who thinks about gay people like you do.
We wanted you to squirm. We wanted you to be uncomfortable. We wanted you to be challenged. WE WANTED YOU TO THINK.
Hell, we wanted to kick you so far out of your comfort zone, you’d need Warp 6 for a week just to get within subspace radio distance of your comfort zone again.
WE WANTED YOU TO SEE THAT THERE ARE OTHER POSSIBILITIES. AND THIS WAS THE WAY WE CHOSE TO DO IT.
Some people have assumed that we had an agenda in making this episode. They’re right, we did. But it’s not the agenda people have presumed.
Our agenda was to have you stop and consider a possibility — just consider it — for only four minutes, that’s all — that gay people are human beings too, loved by God, equal in the eyes of God, cherished by God, and given the same gifts from God as you — the ability to love and connect to another human being.
We’re not asking you to agree. We’re not asking you to turn gay. We’re not asking you to attend a same-sex wedding. We’re not asking you to do anything except CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY THAT GAY PEOPLE HAVE REAL LIVES TOO. Lives of joy and wonder and love, just like everybody else.
Some people have said that the gay scene made them squirm, so they had to look at their own feelings in the matter. They’re the ones who figured it out why we put that scene in the episode.
To those people who got it, thank you. To those who still haven't gotten it, and who might still be shaking their heads, that's okay too. Thanks for watching. Thanks for being part of the process. Thanks for your passion for Star Trek.
David Gerrold
We can discuss and debate the intricacies of copyright law at length and probably produce a lot of useful insight and understanding. I am not a lawyer and I appreciate the quest for accuracy. But there's a much more immediate point that I would like to make and I think it might provide another useful way to look at the whole issue.
Yes, the gay characters were put into the episode for a purpose. Multiple purposes, in fact. Most important, the love scene, the kiss, specific lines of dialog, all of it is part of a larger theme: a portrait of family relationships. Peter and Alex are beginning a family, while Peter and Kirk are an estranged family, and Kirk has a unique relationship with Spock which has elements of family, and then there's Kirk's relationship with the Enterprise and her crew -- the entire episode is about family, as you will see when Part II is released.
When some people talk about cutting those scenes, they are talking about cutting out an integral part of the story. We put them in for a purpose, not just a "political agenda" as some people have accused, but to make a much more important point about FAMILY. Taking out the heart of Peter and Alex's storyline defeats the purpose. It takes out the key element that ties all of those other separate and diverse elements together. (As you will see in Part II. If you thought Part I was harrowing....) Taking out those scenes makes the whole episode incomprehensible. Taking out that storyline destroys the opportunity for this episode to challenge the audience the way Trek is supposed to.
So now, having said that as prelude, I want to repost here something I've already posted in two other places:
I have always believed that all of us, gay or straight, black or white, Christian or Jew or Muslim or atheist or whatever, old or young or somewhere in between, American or African or Asian or whatever — all of us are alone in this together. We are human beings, on a whirling little speck of dust, halfway out the spiral arm of a mostly insignificant galaxy lost somewhere among the trillions of galaxy in a universe so vast we don’t have the language to even begin evoking its scale. We, all of us, are all we have. This is it. Just us.
What we have in common — all of us — is far more similar than any differences we think we have. We all want clean air and clean water, a warm place to sleep, and decent food. We all want to be able to take care of our families, raise our children to be good people, make sure they have excellent educations, and all the necessary health care to keep them resistant to disease and infirmity. We all want good fulfilling work. We all want security for ourselves, our families, our communities, our nation. We all want a chance to do better for ourselves and the people around us. Given that we all have so much in common, I think the two silliest things in the world to argue over are how we say our prayers and who we fall in love with.
Instead of arguing about the right way to pray, we should be thrilled that others are seeking a spiritual path. Instead of arguing about the right way to fall in love, we should be celebrating that love is possible and joyous and that so many people on this planet are able to achieve it and that so many more are hungry for it. We should be cherishing our diversities and learning from each other.
Speaking directly to this episode, when the Phase II team set out to film Blood And Fire, we knew that some people would have a problem with it. We argued and debated and discussed and considered the gay characters for the better part of a year. And ultimately, we kept coming back to several key points:
First, this is a promise that Gene Roddenberry himself made, in public, more than once, to Star Trek’s gay fans. This was a promise we wanted to keep.
Second, it wasn’t enough to just have these characters say that they’re gay in a couple lines of dialog, that was a cop-out; because after we considered everything we were about to put them through, we felt that if we truly honored and respected the people these characters represented, we would give them a moment of genuine intimacy, a genuine “I love you” and a kiss.
Third, we’ve had forty years of heterosexual smooching in Star Trek, including Kirk dry-humping a green-skinned Orion girl in the upcoming movie. Given that a significant percentage of Star Trek’s fans identify themselves as gay or bisexual or having had such relationships, even 4 minutes of the “silliness” (as you characterized it) was probably not out of line.
And finally, after we made that commitment to the characters and thought about it some more and discussed it some more, we recognized the very real possibility that some viewers might be uncomfortable. And that’s when we realized that was the most important reason why we had to include the gay characters in this episode.
So to those people who squirm, let me say: WE MADE THIS EPISODE SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU. We made this episode just for you — and for everybody who thinks about gay people like you do.
We wanted you to squirm. We wanted you to be uncomfortable. We wanted you to be challenged. WE WANTED YOU TO THINK.
Hell, we wanted to kick you so far out of your comfort zone, you’d need Warp 6 for a week just to get within subspace radio distance of your comfort zone again.
WE WANTED YOU TO SEE THAT THERE ARE OTHER POSSIBILITIES. AND THIS WAS THE WAY WE CHOSE TO DO IT.
Some people have assumed that we had an agenda in making this episode. They’re right, we did. But it’s not the agenda people have presumed.
Our agenda was to have you stop and consider a possibility — just consider it — for only four minutes, that’s all — that gay people are human beings too, loved by God, equal in the eyes of God, cherished by God, and given the same gifts from God as you — the ability to love and connect to another human being.
We’re not asking you to agree. We’re not asking you to turn gay. We’re not asking you to attend a same-sex wedding. We’re not asking you to do anything except CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY THAT GAY PEOPLE HAVE REAL LIVES TOO. Lives of joy and wonder and love, just like everybody else.
Some people have said that the gay scene made them squirm, so they had to look at their own feelings in the matter. They’re the ones who figured it out why we put that scene in the episode.
To those people who got it, thank you. To those who still haven't gotten it, and who might still be shaking their heads, that's okay too. Thanks for watching. Thanks for being part of the process. Thanks for your passion for Star Trek.
David Gerrold
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