Phantom Menace is the best Prequel.
- Thread starter TheLobes
- Start date
You've got the right idea, that Anakin needs to be someone we like, so that we're interested in his story to begin with, and him being "incorruptible" creates a thrilling dramatic contrast when he does fall. But I think you've set the bar too high for any writer, even one more talented than Lucas, to come up with a plot that gets from Point A to Point B.
How is it possible to plausibly get from Incorruptible Anakin to the guy who will slaughter children? If he's so incorruptible, how can he also be so emotionally unstable that a threat to his wife, or anyone, would suddenly turn him evil? Why would he become murderous, as opposed to, say, suicidal since he cannot bear to live without Padme? Wouldn't a nice guy decide to kill himself rather than harm innocents, if his choice is to kill children or let Padme die? If he's so incorruptible, how can he be unaware that she would certainly prefer to die rather than allow children to be harmed?
The Clone Wars is taking a different tack: Anakin isn't a saint, but he's got enough good qualities that we like him. The crucial thing is that they deleted the contemptible qualities - the weakness, whininess and childishness. Without that baggage, Anakin can be ruthless and cocky, and sometimes a little scary, and still get a pass. His faults are the faults of strength, not weakness. That makes all the difference.
So they've set up a character who doesn't have an impossible distance to fall. And now they're throwing the kitchen sink at him. The political system is being plausibly depicted as corrupt, possibly too corrupt to save (but not so corrupt that Padme, Bail and the Jedi look like idiots for deciding it can be saved) which gives Anakin a good motive to rebel against the Jedi.
He's been shown objective evidence that all the "Chosen One" bullpucky is, in fact, legit. He doesn't need to be an egotist to think that he might have the ability to transcend the Jedi and the Sith, since he's actually experienced it.
And we've gotten more info on the nature of the dark side, which seems to hit somewhere between being full-blown mind control and a seductively easy way to accomplish your objectives. We've seen a Jedi (Ahsoka) who was fully under its control and nothing more than a helpless puppet. Presumably this isn't what happens to Anakin - that would destroy the dramatic weight of the ROTJ scene (NOOOO or no NOOOO
) - but even partial mind control is probably necessary to explain how he could ever get to the point where he could kill children. He's ruthless but no maniac. The way they're going, the whole Padme-in-danger plot isn't even necessary anymore. And Palps doesn't need to connive or manipulate him one bit. I can already see why someone like Anakin would decide the Jedi are frakking things up, and not only does he have the ability to step in and save the situation, he has the duty to, since nobody else can do it. He tries controlling the dark side in order to salvage a desperate situation, and ends up being controlled by the dark side instead.
Considering the number of Americans who would like to see Congress get a reboot, or just the boot, you may have a blockbuster on your hands.
Agreed that TPM had good themes and somewhat momentum while AotC was mostly filler; RotS was some filler but then much momentum.
Mostly that Palpatine is so driven and the irony in people either supporting or being indifferent to his rise. Anakin (more sympathetic than in AotC) being drawn into his evil for self-defeating reasons and rejecting his adopted family (though him resenting the Jedi could have been more developed) is also interesting.
Mostly that Palpatine is so driven and the irony in people either supporting or being indifferent to his rise. Anakin (more sympathetic than in AotC) being drawn into his evil for self-defeating reasons and rejecting his adopted family (though him resenting the Jedi could have been more developed) is also interesting.
It would have been more interesting if he had ever been painted as a sympathetic character. He was never a good guy. He was just an angsty teenager who through the mother of all tantrums and never got a time out.
I don't mind "Phantom Menace" aside from Jar Jar and bits of Jake Lloyd it isn't that bad. I happen to like the political intrigue Lucas attempts to inject into the film in order to set up Palpatine's rise.
For the win.Yes, TPM is the artistic best of a bad lot. But it's not my favorite. Why not? Simple:
Anyway, I think we can all agree that the best Star Wars prequel was Trek XI.
I've always maintained that Star Trek '09 was the best Star Wars movie since The Empire Strikes Back.
You mean this one? (Yes, I know you do. Rhetorical question.)
I didn't mean by the earlier picture to single any one of her outfits out. You get 'em all, in the same movie. In TPM, OTOH, Portman was a bit too young to really ogle, and in ROTS, she's crying in pretty much every scene, which some people might be into, but not moi.
And, as much as I loathe the PT and have no interest in ever seeing it again, if I were engaged and my fiancee wanted to wear this for our wedding, I don't think I could possibly object:
Funny how, in the AOTC dvd features, they talk about making Portman beautiful in every scene so that Leia would remember her beauty. And we all remember how that turned out...
But the ideal PT viewing experience, surely, is AOTC, with the audio track set to a language you don't speak, and the subtitles off.
Lets do a head2head
1. PRO-TA-GO-NIST
TPM: Qui-Gonn Jinn (inb4 plonkett's forced "logic")
AOTC: Anakin & Obi-Wan
ROTS: Anakin & Obi-Wan
Jinn wins by a wide margin.
score: 1-0-0
2. VILLAIN (not counting Palpatine)
TPM: Darth Maul - cool, intimidating, mysterious, kinda like a deadly alien ninja assassin
AOTC: Count Dooku - no clear motive for becoming a Sith, pops up out of nowhere (should have at least been introduced in TPM, had some scenes with Qui-Gon)
ROTS: General Grievous - great CGI and character design, but ultimately silly and goofy
WINNER: Maul
score: 2-0-0
3. PLOT
TPM: crappy SW1977 rehash...
AOTC: one of the worst plots in history
ROTS: finally, a PLOT! A flawed plot, but a plot none the less!
WINNER: ROTS (obviously).
This is worth 3 pts, IMO, so it's 2-0-3
4. VISUALS
TPM: nice photography, superb lighting (especially those "afternoon shots" of Naboo and Coruscant)
AOTC: They were going for the darker, more ESB-ish tone. It kinda worked, but... Far from mind blowing.
ROTS: One word - CLUSTERFUCK
WINNER: TPM
score: 3-0-3
5. MUSIC
TPM: Amazing. Williams in full form.
AOTC: Not bad. Some recycling going on, but still pretty good.
ROTS: Uhm... It didn't suck, but... The "Battle of the Heroes" disappointed me. Wasn't bad, but "Duel of the Fates" is far superior.
WINNER: TPM
score (no pun intended) 4-0-3
Acting sucks in all three, but it's somewhat more tolerable in TPM, so that's an additional point. Also, a point for TPM for having the best action sequences. An additional point also goes to ROTS, for Palpatine finally being awesome.
Final score: 6-0-4, TPM wins.
IMO
1. PRO-TA-GO-NIST
TPM: Qui-Gonn Jinn (inb4 plonkett's forced "logic")
AOTC: Anakin & Obi-Wan
ROTS: Anakin & Obi-Wan
Jinn wins by a wide margin.
score: 1-0-0
2. VILLAIN (not counting Palpatine)
TPM: Darth Maul - cool, intimidating, mysterious, kinda like a deadly alien ninja assassin
AOTC: Count Dooku - no clear motive for becoming a Sith, pops up out of nowhere (should have at least been introduced in TPM, had some scenes with Qui-Gon)
ROTS: General Grievous - great CGI and character design, but ultimately silly and goofy
WINNER: Maul
score: 2-0-0
3. PLOT
TPM: crappy SW1977 rehash...
AOTC: one of the worst plots in history
ROTS: finally, a PLOT! A flawed plot, but a plot none the less!
WINNER: ROTS (obviously).
This is worth 3 pts, IMO, so it's 2-0-3
4. VISUALS
TPM: nice photography, superb lighting (especially those "afternoon shots" of Naboo and Coruscant)
AOTC: They were going for the darker, more ESB-ish tone. It kinda worked, but... Far from mind blowing.
ROTS: One word - CLUSTERFUCK
WINNER: TPM
score: 3-0-3
5. MUSIC
TPM: Amazing. Williams in full form.
AOTC: Not bad. Some recycling going on, but still pretty good.
ROTS: Uhm... It didn't suck, but... The "Battle of the Heroes" disappointed me. Wasn't bad, but "Duel of the Fates" is far superior.
WINNER: TPM
score (no pun intended) 4-0-3
Acting sucks in all three, but it's somewhat more tolerable in TPM, so that's an additional point. Also, a point for TPM for having the best action sequences. An additional point also goes to ROTS, for Palpatine finally being awesome.
Final score: 6-0-4, TPM wins.
IMO
^ Plus, TPM looks the nicest out of the other two. Maybe that's because it wasn't filmed digitally
I thought I covered that under "visuals", but yeah, it does.
Definitely one of the factors. To me, everything looks nicer shot on film. Digital somehow takes the soul out of it.
Example - the early seasons of ENT look much better than season 4, which looks kinda sterile.
It is the best of the prequels. Padme's role suited her and made sense. Schmi was probably one of the few believable characters in the entire franchise. The dynamic between the jedi worked well. Jar Jar, while very annoying for the adults, wsa great fun for the children and I won't begrudge them that. They used foreshadowing so that those that had seen the later movies could feel smart and those that had not would suffer no spoilers. Darth Maul was cooooooool.
On the downside the plot lacked scope. It felt like it was building to something but did not quite get there. C3PO's inclusion was bizarre and unnecessary. What, that's IT - we needed more Darth Maul - why could they not see that? IT WAS OBVIOUS!!!
On the downside the plot lacked scope. It felt like it was building to something but did not quite get there. C3PO's inclusion was bizarre and unnecessary. What, that's IT - we needed more Darth Maul - why could they not see that? IT WAS OBVIOUS!!!
Phantom Menace had the most plot of any of them. Which isn't say much!
Attack of the Clones just... ugh...
And Revenge of the Sith is dreck outside of the end. The fight over the lava, seeing Anakin singed and burned and what not, how he became Vader physically... that was good.
But all in all... yeah... shit on a stick.
Lucas could have pulled a Roddenberry and captured lightening in a bottle twice, but instead he couldn't see past his own ego enough to let anyone else dip their fingers in the pie. The result was a contrived triad of poorly thought-out, written, directed, and even acted films that have little but CGI and a smattering of moments to make them tollerable.
Worst part? They *ARE* Star Wars are far as most persons under 15 are concerned. The Original Trilogy, which is actually GOOD? It's "campy" and "slow" and "silly" in their adolescent minds...
*Shakes head*
My nephew; he's 5. I watched the original trilogy with him. He enjoyed it a lot. Bought light-sabers. And then his shmuck idiot father, in an effort to compete with me because he's so damned insecure, exposed him to the stupid prequels. Something I was not going to do until he was older and curious about more of the story and I could warn him that they suck. Sigh. Thankfully, he's a smart kid. He didn't like them "as much" but still...
Attack of the Clones just... ugh...
And Revenge of the Sith is dreck outside of the end. The fight over the lava, seeing Anakin singed and burned and what not, how he became Vader physically... that was good.
But all in all... yeah... shit on a stick.
Lucas could have pulled a Roddenberry and captured lightening in a bottle twice, but instead he couldn't see past his own ego enough to let anyone else dip their fingers in the pie. The result was a contrived triad of poorly thought-out, written, directed, and even acted films that have little but CGI and a smattering of moments to make them tollerable.
Worst part? They *ARE* Star Wars are far as most persons under 15 are concerned. The Original Trilogy, which is actually GOOD? It's "campy" and "slow" and "silly" in their adolescent minds...
*Shakes head*
My nephew; he's 5. I watched the original trilogy with him. He enjoyed it a lot. Bought light-sabers. And then his shmuck idiot father, in an effort to compete with me because he's so damned insecure, exposed him to the stupid prequels. Something I was not going to do until he was older and curious about more of the story and I could warn him that they suck. Sigh. Thankfully, he's a smart kid. He didn't like them "as much" but still...
I like TPM about equally with ROTS. (I think this might be the first time I've ever really realized "Revenge of the Sith" abbreviates itself so distastefully. I can only imagine prequel-loathers enjoy this.)
AOTC being considered superior to TPM is something I will never, ever agree with though. Of the six films AOTC is the only one I genuinely consider in the two-star range. Its romance is very schlocky, one of its two lead actors is noticeably bad and its pacing is very off-putting.
This thread makes me happy. Sometimes I do believe I'm one of only two people in the world (the other being my ex) who don't think "The Phantom Menace" is a bad movie.
AOTC being considered superior to TPM is something I will never, ever agree with though. Of the six films AOTC is the only one I genuinely consider in the two-star range. Its romance is very schlocky, one of its two lead actors is noticeably bad and its pacing is very off-putting.
This thread makes me happy. Sometimes I do believe I'm one of only two people in the world (the other being my ex) who don't think "The Phantom Menace" is a bad movie.
Geez yeah, he should stay out of it. What business is it of his to be showing his own kid a kids' movie? How presumptuous!
