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Phantom Menace is the best Prequel.

And what exactly prevents people from following the Sith? Where did this religion come from, and who came up with the Rule of Two? You have to think that there are other Sith followers out there in the galaxy somewhere.

It'll take way too long to explain the Sith in one post. I'll just post this.

Here is an excerpt from The Phantom Menace novelization. The author spent some time talking with Lucas about who the Sith were and where they came from before writing the book.

http://jediorganization.addr.com/jedi/sites/jedicreed/tales/compendium/4.html
 
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And what exactly prevents people from following the Sith? Where did this religion come from, and who came up with the Rule of Two? You have to think that there are other Sith followers out there in the galaxy somewhere.

It'll take way too long to explain the Sith in one post. I'll just post this.

Here is an excerpt from The Phantom Menace novelization. The author spent some time talking with Lucas about who the Sith were and where they came from before writing the book.

http://jediorganization.addr.com/jedi/sites/jedicreed/tales/compendium/4.html

Okay, I accept that explanation. It covers the bases, at least.
 
I thought ROTS was the best of the lot, but I'll admit I haven't seen TPM in years, and could probably stand to do again. Ditto for AoTC.
 
I don't recall any mention in the OT of the "Sith ruling the Galaxy".

But you probably do recall that the Empire ruled the galaxy and that it somehow found a way to operate which did not depend on a large group of darksiders being in charge. Which, of course, is completely silly, according to imaginary rules invented specifically to find imaginary fault with the PT.

TremblingBluStar said:
Hence, it did not happen.

SW is not Trek. In SW novelizations are considered part of the highest tier of canon, and are only overruled where they conflict with the films. Since the scene in question appeared in the fourth draft of the script, and TESB set photos show that part of the production involved Luke training with a lightsaber on Dagobah, it's clearly consistent with Lucas' concept of Yoda. That it's inconsistent with your concept of Yoda is completely irrelevant.

TremblingBluStar said:
The whole "rule of two" is a PT invention.

I don't think anyone claimed that it wasn't. However, it merely codifies the dynamic we had already witnessed between Palpatine, Vader, and Luke in ROTJ.

TremblingBluStar said:
When was this ever highlighted in the dialogue?

At what point during AOTC was Yoda involved in a Force stalemate which resulted in a lightsaber battle?

TremblingBluStar said:
So by your logic, it's perfectly all right to write a character as a wise, peace loving passifist one moment and a blood thirsty war hero the next, because character development is entirely subjective.

Yoda is never depicted as bloodthirsty. That's nothing more than a misrepresentation of his character. He fights in self-defense or to defend others. You seem to expect him to be a useless do-nothing pacifist like the lemur people. Unfortunately, he's part of an order of knights pledged to defend others, and they're not. "Wars not make one great" would not be a problem in any event given that it could be taken to mean that Yoda learned a lesson from the result of the Clone Wars ( AKA character development ); however, it is already clear in the PT that Yoda is no warmonger. There's no cheering or jingoism when the Clone Wars begin; Yoda says outright that the victory on Geonosis is no victory at all and that the shroud of the dark side has fallen. You're apparently not very familiar with the actual content of these films.

TremblingBluStar said:
Since so many people were bothered by this, doesn't that seem to indicate there just might be something to it?

That you were bothered by something does not necessarily mean that there was anything wrong with it. For example, you have a problem with two Sith ruling the galaxy, even though two Sith ruled the galaxy in the OT, and you have a problem with Yoda fighting to preserve the lives of Anakin and Obi-Wan, which is utterly ridiculous. Throwing "so many people" into it is just a tired appeal to majority fallacy.
 
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And what exactly prevents people from following the Sith? Where did this religion come from, and who came up with the Rule of Two? You have to think that there are other Sith followers out there in the galaxy somewhere.

It'll take way too long to explain the Sith in one post. I'll just post this.

Here is an excerpt from The Phantom Menace novelization. The author spent some time talking with Lucas about who the Sith were and where they came from before writing the book.

http://jediorganization.addr.com/jedi/sites/jedicreed/tales/compendium/4.html

I had not read that before, that was pretty interesting and mostly what I had deduced in my imagination after watching the PT over the years. However, the person who wrote it misspelled "rogue" as "rouge" twice.
 
STOP ASKING LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS TO VAGUE & ILL-DEFINED CONCEPTS!!
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."

Maybe the masses voted her into that position. ;)

Did the almighty OT set it up with the prequels following its lead?



We're talking about the X-Men, right?
 
I had not read that before, that was pretty interesting and mostly what I had deduced in my imagination after watching the PT over the years. However, the person who wrote it misspelled "rogue" as "rouge" twice.

The PT novelizations are good since they each have a bunch of scenes not in the movies themselves.

Weird thing about the mispelling. A bunch of other websites quoted the novel correctly, but this person got it wrong.
 
I had not read that before, that was pretty interesting and mostly what I had deduced in my imagination after watching the PT over the years. However, the person who wrote it misspelled "rogue" as "rouge" twice.

The PT novelizations are good since they each have a bunch of scenes not in the movies themselves.

Weird thing about the mispelling. A bunch of other websites quoted the novel correctly, but this person got it wrong.

The only novelization that I read was the one for Episode III, but maybe I should pick up the others. I did enjoy the "Sith" novel, it had added a number of insights to a movie that I already like a great deal.
 
Bollocks. If we discount Trek XI from prequel status, then surely X-Men: First Class is the greatest ever prequel to a previously released film/film series.
 
If I wanted to be snotty, I'd say that The Good, The Bad and the Ugly is probably the best prequel ever made, though of course its links to the other two movies in the Dollar "Trilogy" are pretty weak.

Actually, no, I'd say Infernal Affairs II is an excellent movie and a terrific prequel to the first film. But I doubt many people here have seen that one.
 
Cross-posting what I said on the subject on another forum:

If you were to watch Star Wars: Episode I -- The Phantom Menace with no other knowledge of the existence of Star Wars -- having no knowledge whatsoever of the films that came before or after, the books, comics, videogames or cartoon tie-ins, or even of the cultural impact that Star Wars has had on the public over the last 34 years -- then... it wouldn't be a bad film.

It wouldn't be an outstanding masterpiece, but it'd be good enough. I'd say about on par with George Lucas's other fantasy film, Willow.

The main storyline is solid (and most of the critiques offered by Red Letter Media about plot holes really don't hold up), the hints regarding the larger conflict of Jedi vs Sith are appropriately intriguing, the characters are fairly broadly drawn but decently done (Red Letter Media's claim of "Qui-Gon has no personality" and "Amidala has no character" are bullshit), the musical score is fantastic, and even though I'm not a fan of the bright-and-shiny CG-filled look I am nonetheless willing to accept it as simply being the film's aesthetic.

There are some flaws in the dialogue and such, but I have to say that a lot of the problem is not so much in the way the lines are written than in the way they are delivered. Particularly with Jar Jar Binks, who I don't find nearly as annoying as everyone else seems to -- the main problem with Jar Jar is simply that Ahmed Best is not much of an actor. When I was reading the novelisation by Terry Brooks it struck me just how much Best overplays every damn line they give him. There's a similar problem with Anakin -- even though no one could carry off the frequent "Yippee!", his dialogue is mostly okay and only comes off as bad because Jake Lloyd sounds like he's reading off an autocue.

Really, I'd say there are only three major flaws in the film, judging it purely in and of itself:

1. The film is far too in love with its own visual effects capabilities. Now, this isn't a sin unique to TPM -- we also see it in the Harry Potter movies, for example, which would include extended CG-heavy Quidditch match scenes that would go on for 10 minutes at a stretch and in exchange would cut out entire subplots. But there are numerous sequences throughout the movie which are included purely to show off the CG technology with no regard to actually advancing the plot. I'm not just talking about the Podrace (which does count, being about twice as long as it needs to be) -- it also applies to the submarine scene where a bunch of underwater creatures chase them (which could be removed entirely), and quite a lot of the final battle with the Gungans and with the fighter pilots (which could be heavily cut down).

2. The structure of the film is somewhat disjointed in trying to incorporate its main plot (the occupation of Naboo) with the subplots important to the overall saga (all the business with Anakin & the Sith). The thing is, the subplots aren't integral to the overall plot: you could actually cut Anakin and the planet Tatooine out of the story entirely without compromising the story at all. In fact, the entire Tatooine sequence is almost like a separate short film within a film: it has a very different feel to the rest (much less bright & shiny, much more earthy), entirely different character dynamics (Obi-Wan basically disappears, Padme suddenly becomes a main character) and its own self-contained beginning, middle and end... and then when it's over and they're back in space, the plot hasn't advanced at all except that Anakin (an otherwise useless character) is now with them and Qui-Gon has very briefly fought with Darth Maul.

3. Most importantly, in a lot of cases the movie over-extends itself by trying to do too much at once, which has the result of a lot of bits & pieces feeling redundant. This includes the climax of the film, where there are four simultaneous action sequences -- the Jedi fighting Maul is impressive, the Gungans fighting the droids drags on too long, the fighter pilots going against the Droid Control Ship falls flat, and Amidala & the Naboo guards infiltrating the palace (which is probably the most important of the four!) ends up being the weakest of the four because it's not able to build up the necessary suspense. But this over-extension also applies to the characters themselves. We could have had one Jedi as our hero -- Obi-Wan Kenobi -- but instead we got two, with Qui-Gon Jinn getting Obi-Wan-from-the-original-trilogy's personality and the actual Obi-Wan Kenobi coming off as uptight, unlikeable and almost entirely redundant to the plot. The only purpose that Obi-Wan actually serves in the movie is still being alive at the end, so Anakin can still get apprenticed after Qui-Gon's awesome death scene: otherwise, he doesn't do anything to advance the plot either! And then there's the supporting characters: Anakin first appears halfway through in his own mini-movie contrived to get him in the picture and is mostly unimportant afterwards, Jar Jar hangs around being the comedy sidekick for most of the movie but only actually does anything important near the end when he helps reconcile the Gungans with the Naboo, and C-3PO makes an obligatory appearance which has no purpose whatsoever and was only included so that both droids could appear in all six films.

These major problems stem from, I think, the fact this film never had to go through the paring-down process that the original did: here, George Lucas was given a 115-million-dollar budget and absolute autonomy. He didn't have to think about how he might condense the movie down to something which was, if on less of an epic scale, a more solid and substantial piece of cinema. So he could go off on tangents like the podrace business or the extended CG action sequences without worrying about trying for more efficient storytelling -- even though the result would've been more powerful.

(For example, if it were up to me I would've of course combined Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan into one character -- but I also would've combined Jar Jar and Anakin into one character, or at least given the role that Jar Jar has in the story entirely over to Anakin. This would've concentrated the movie more on its own main plot centring around the occupation of Naboo, eliminating the Tatooine tangent and allowing us to see more of this occupation that drives the whole film, as well as strengthening the composite character of Anakin by perhaps showing him developing and becoming more capable over the course of the film.)

But though these flaws are important, they are by no means fatal. I'd rate Star Wars: Episode I -- The Phantom Menace a 2.5 out of 5.

(Episodes II and III are much worse but that's a whole other rant.)
 
The film has only two problems: Jar Jar Binks and Annoykin Skywalker. The rest would be perfectly fine.

And another problem is... this movie would have been better had the OT never existed. Because that way, we would have had Qui Gon as main character, and Darth Maul, who was a seriously badass villain character with great potential, could have been the main villain throughout the trilogy. But the movie needed to fit into the franchise, which weakened it. Same thing happened to Star Trek 2009, with Nimoy-Spock's appearance being forced into it into a pretty contrived way, Kirks rapid promotion, etc... stuff that wasn't needed for a standalone film, but that was put into it because "the franchise needed it".
 
(For example, if it were up to me I would've of course combined Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan into one character -- but I also would've combined Jar Jar and Anakin into one character, or at least given the role that Jar Jar has in the story entirely over to Anakin.
It's not a bad idea, but I think you don't need to make such dramatic changes to make things better. In order to give a more central role, you make him the harsh and impetuous one, and you make Qui-Gonn his quiet and conservative master. That way, Obi-Wan becomes the protagonist of the movie, every plot element falls into place, and it creates an interesting dynamic in the next two episodes, where Obi-Wan has to become the Master of someone who is even more frantic and free-spirited than he is.

As for Jar-Jar, once you realize that he is the Han Solo character of the movie, the outsider who guides our heroes through enemy lands and who's not entirely convinced by their mystical mumbo-jumbo, you understand that you don't have to change him that much to make the character work.
 
But you probably do recall that the Empire ruled the galaxy and that it somehow found a way to operate which did not depend on a large group of darksiders being in charge. Which, of course, is completely silly, according to imaginary rules invented specifically to find imaginary fault with the PT.
I just think it's silly that the Emperor proclaimed that the "Sith rule the galaxy" when there are only two. Again, that would be like saying "African Americans control the American government" since we have one African American president.
SW is not Trek. In SW novelizations are considered part of the highest tier of canon, and are only overruled where they conflict with the films.
Still doesn't negate that Yoda didn't place much emphasis on the use of a light saber, and that Luke failed when he used one to kill Vader in the cave. In that scene, Vader represented just a clear and legitimate threat as the two clone soldiers Yoda didn't hesitate to behead.

I don't think anyone claimed that it wasn't. However, it merely codifies the dynamic we had already witnessed between Palpatine, Vader, and Luke in ROTJ.
I believe you said they were following what was set down in the OT. No matter, however.
Yoda is never depicted as bloodthirsty. That's nothing more than a misrepresentation of his character. He fights in self-defense or to defend others.
As depicted when he sent an entire army of human clones to battle to rescue the Jedi. Then led a war in which Armies are sent in to pacify "separatists" who dared try to secede from the Republic. Seems like a rational, legitimate response... and not at all war mongering. Ummmm...
You're apparently not very familiar with the actual content of these films.
No, I'm not familiar with your interpretation of the films. You can sit there and tell me what I see as flaws are simply my view. By that same token, your view is an attempt to mitigate or ignore the flaws in the film.

Throwing "so many people" into it is just a tired appeal to majority fallacy.
So is saying "the majority of scientists believe in global warming". What is your point? If a lot of people believe something in a film is wrong, it probably is.
 
I just think it's silly that the Emperor proclaimed that the "Sith rule the galaxy" when there are only two. Again, that would be like saying "African Americans control the American government" since we have one African American president.
It's not the same thing at all. The Sith master rules the Empire with an iron fist. His will is the Law, and as his right-hand man, the Sith apprentice makes sure that anyone who disagrees his severely punished. Citizens of the Empire are effectively doing whatever the Sith tell them to do. Moreover, ruling over the galaxy in this specific way is exactly what the Sith set out to do.

In other words: all the Sith (both of them) are dedicated to controlling the Galactic Empire, they've been very successful at it, and that has been their whole purpose in life. Yes, the Sith are ruling the galaxy.

In the White House, Barack Obama is not fulfilling any specific African American agenda, he is not speaking for all African Americans, and there are many, many other African Americans who have nothing to do with the executive branch of the government.
 
Q

If you were to watch Star Wars: Episode I -- The Phantom Menace with no other knowledge of the existence of Star Wars -- having no knowledge whatsoever of the films that came before or after, the books, comics, videogames or cartoon tie-ins, or even of the cultural impact that Star Wars has had on the public over the last 34 years -- then... it wouldn't be a bad film.
I don't know about that. It would be entertaining, and pretty to look at - but the plot would be incomprehensible. Lucas doesn't bother explaining in the film any of the SW concepts, like the Force. Nor does he make it clear who the Sith are and why they want to rule, or that Palpatine and Sideous are the same. I know it's heavily implied, but to someone not going in knowing this, it wouldn't necessarily click.
(and most of the critiques offered by Red Letter Media about plot holes really don't hold up) (Red Letter Media's claim of "Qui-Gon has no personality" and "Amidala has no character" are bullshit)
I'll admit that RLM does go a bit overboard in the analysis of the film - but keep in mind that this was done for entertainment purposes in it's own right. At the very least, everything they bring up is a legitimate complaint.

As for Qui-Gonn and Amadala, they really do have no personality in this film. We are told nothing about their back story, their opinions, or their likes/dislikes. That is how we get to know a character. Every line of dialogue given to these characters relates to the plot or what is happening on screen.

Compare this to what we find out about Han just in the first film. By the end we know that 1. He's a rogue who is mostly interested in money, but goes through a character arc in which he is willing to risk his own life to help Luke. 2. He's proud of his ship, which is almost a separate character entirely, and has an extensive history with it. 3. He doesn't believe in the Force, and doesn't really care what others think of him. He's confident, but not to the point where it becomes a detriment.

At the end of TPM, what do we know about Obi-Wan. 1. He's a Jedi in training. 2. He's loyal to Qui-Gonn, and gets mad when Qui-Gonn is killed. That's about it.
 
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