Peter David and Lower Decks

[Russell Oviatt]

While watching a couple of lower decks episodes yesterday i was thinking how the late peter david could of written some fun novels with this type of setting.

His new frontier novels were so different from what I read previously when I was in college and lower decks seemed right up his alley

 

[Dukhat]

Not to speak ill of the dead, because Peter David has written some fantastic stuff, but I always felt that every single character in his New Frontier books were over-the-top Mary Sues.

Whether one thinks that this would translate well into episodes of Lower Decks…maybe?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Not to speak ill of the dead, because Peter David has written some fantastic stuff, but I always felt that every single character in his New Frontier books were over-the-top Mary Sues.

Whether one thinks that this would translate well into episodes of Lower Decks…maybe?

With the caveat that I have an intense dislike of the phrase "Mary Sue", I tend to agree.

 

[Dukhat]

With the caveat that I have an intense dislike of the phrase "Mary Sue", I tend to agree.

I get that. My intent was not to be offensive. Simply that every character in that series was depicted as unrealistically talented, perfect, and beloved, often serving as a flawless, ‘wish fulfillment’ author insert (AI description of MS.)

 

[F. King Daniel]

Fun fact! The term "Mary Sue" originated in Star Trek fan fiction:

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I think Peter David's style would have definitely suited Lower Decks, and I'm glad the Brikar are part of Trek's canon. I really enjoyed New Frontier.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

This one's tricky for me, because I can see why Peter David would be a good fit for Lower Decks but also why he wouldn't. The Peter David of the late 80s and early 90s who wrote the DC Comics and novels like Strike Zone and Q-in-Law, yes. The later Peter David who wrote Before Dishonor, no.

I disagree a little with @Dukhat about the characters of New Frontier being "depicted as unrealistically talented, perfect, and beloved," as I don't feel that was true of the Canon characters like Shelby, Lefler, Selar, and especially Jellico. I feel he mischaracterized and tore down these characters in order to build up the original characters; at most, the Canon characters share names with the characters we saw in NextGen and little else.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Holy Epstein! Kirk inviting a 15 and a half year old girl to bed?

 

[Dukhat]

This one's tricky for me, because I can see why Peter David would be a good fit for Lower Decks but also why he wouldn't. The Peter David of the late 80s and early 90s who wrote the DC Comics and novels like Strike Zone and Q-in-Law, yes. The later Peter David who wrote Before Dishonor, no.

I disagree a little with @Dukhat about the characters of New Frontier being "depicted as unrealistically talented, perfect, and beloved," as I don't feel that was true of the Canon characters like Shelby, Lefler, Selar, and especially Jellico. I feel he mischaracterized and tore down these characters in order to build up the original characters; at most, the Canon characters share names with the characters we saw in NextGen and little else.

You make a good point, and let me clarify: when a story contains one or more MS’s, there are invariably other characters who only serve to reinforce how great that MS character is. I feel that David used the characters of Shelby and Jellico as those reinforcers for Calhoun. Because, in my opinion, there’s no way that guy would have realistically become a Starfleet captain, or be unrealistically fawned over so much by the likes of Jellico and Shelby (and even Picard, for that matter.) Also, Robin Lefler was used that way to bolster Morgan.

I should have been more clear that I meant David’s original characters came off that way, not already established ones. Those, I agree, he used only to bolster the new ones.

 

[USS Firefly]

I could see Calhoun getting a Ambassador class starship, but not a Galaxy class.

 

[Dukhat]

I could see Calhoun getting a Ambassador class starship, but not a Galaxy class.

Spoiler

Didn’t he get a Galaxy class ship after his Ambassador class ship was destroyed?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Spoiler

Didn’t he get a Galaxy class ship after his Ambassador class ship was destroyed?

Spoiler

Yes, and he was believed dead. When I first met Peter David, it was in that period between Calhoun's apparent death and the Excalibur trilogy, and I told him I liked the willingness to kill off Calhoun and shake up the status quo, that it would let Shelby be the Shelby of "Best of Both Worlds" again, an ambitious, gung-ho officer. He just fixed me with a glare and grunted, and when I read Restoration I understood why -- Calhoun wasn't dead, and Shelby was an incompetant ditz who was hated by her crew.

 

[Turtletrekker]

New Frontier was at its best when it was a story about a captain and a ship and a crew. The more it's strayed from that the more off the rails it went.

 

[USS Firefly]

Spoiler

Didn’t he get a Galaxy class ship after his Ambassador class ship was destroyed?

Yes that is when the story went of the rails for me.

 

[Mudd]

Fun fact! The term "Mary Sue" originated in Star Trek fan fiction:

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I think Peter David's style would have definitely suited Lower Decks, and I'm glad the Brikar are part of Trek's canon. I really enjoyed New Frontier.

Interesting collection of tags, there.

 

[Tuskin38]

Fun fact, Calhoun is a NPC in Star Trek Online. He doesn't really do anything, stands around K-7 all day. Sill a captain in 2412 or whatever year it is now.

Edit: Well he does something, gives PvP quests.

 

[donners22]

It's a shame he was never involved in televised Trek; he could have been Trek's Darin Morgan.

Definitely would have been a good fit for Lower Decks; his irreverence and the way he interweaved stories with Trek's history would have worked well.

 

[David cgc]

I don’t think he was in much of a condition to work on a TV show by the time Lower Decks came around. His health issues had gotten pretty severe, and his last few books felt half-finished. The final “Sir Apropos” book actually had a passage that basically said “Here’s where the wacky episodic vignettes chapters would go if I were as young as I was when I wrote the first three books in this series, but all I’ve got the energy for now is the core plot,” and his Robin Hood reimagining ended at what felt more like an end-of-act-one setpiece.

 

[Mage]

Spoiler

Yes, and he was believed dead. When I first met Peter David, it was in that period between Calhoun's apparent death and the Excalibur trilogy, and I told him I liked the willingness to kill off Calhoun and shake up the status quo, that it would let Shelby be the Shelby of "Best of Both Worlds" again, an ambitious, gung-ho officer. He just fixed me with a glare and grunted, and when I read Restoration I understood why -- Calhoun wasn't dead, and Shelby was an incompetant ditz who was hated by her crew.

Spoiler: Spoiler

What really disgusted me, was how Calhoun came back just as they were going to give the new Excalibur to Shelby. Calhoun basically jumps in, gets the Excalibur and marries Shelby who gets a different ship.
I'm effing sorry....? What? Have Shelby keep Excalibur and give a different ship to Calhoun. Just because the man shows up he is entitled to that ship? No way. I never really enjoyed how David wrote women. They come across as strong and smart, but still often second class to the men.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I never really enjoyed how David wrote women. They come across as strong and smart, but still often second class to the men.

Weirdly, since it's a book with Deanna Troi front and center on the cover, Imzadi may be the object example of that tendency.

Troi is a plot point in the book more than she is a character. The conflict in the book is between Riker and Data over whether she lives (Riker's choice) or dies (Data's choice), and the center portion of the book, the extended flashback to the Riker/Troi courtship on Betazed, is largely seen through Riker's eyes. PAD doesn't treat her badly here -- for an example of that, see Strike Zone -- but she's a plot to be resolved in the book, not a character to be developed.

To circle this back to the ostensible idea of this subforum, I think PAD would have done okay writing Mariner and T'Ana, probably on the gross side writing Tendi (she's Orion, and I think he'd sexualize her), and probably lost with Captain Freeman (see also, Jellico and Shelby) and T'Lyn (see also, Selar).