Person of Interest season 5
- Thread starter JoeZhang
- Start date
preparing myself
We'll, I suppose that is a return to 0.
Wonder how long it takes for Harold to get pulled back into the mix.
Wonder how long it takes for Harold to get pulled back into the mix.
That was a powerful bookend to the series. And that quote about death and being remembered gave me chills. One of the best shows I've ever had the pleasure of watching.
Sorry, I missed this before... I'll see if I can remember.
Reese: Sure, he would've killed himself if Finch hadn't recruited him. That was clear from the pilot. (Although Reese later told Carter that she saved him when she arrested him -- I was never quite sure why he thought that.) Earlier, Reese getting out of the CIA in time to save Jessica... I suppose it's possible, since at least the last few months of his career seem to have been shaped by Machine-related operations. Hard to pin down a single clear point of divergence for that one, though.
Finch, Nathan: Yup, if they hadn't built the Machine, Northern Lights would've had no reason to assassinate Nathan. He and Harold would've just continued on as before. And Harold would never have met Grace, because it was the Machine that "introduced" her to him and played matchmaker.
Carter, Fusco: Carter's path is a bit hard to buy. Team Machine contributed a lot of the intel that helped bring down HR, so the idea that Carter could've brought them down without Team Machine is iffy. Then again, if Carter and Agent Donnelly hadn't had part of their attention and resources directed toward "The Man in the Suit," maybe they could've focused more fully on HR. But presumably they would've done so in a way that brought down Quinn and Simmons earlier, given that neither Carter nor Szymanski was assassinated. As for Fusco, the idea that he turned informant just before HR was brought down is plausible, since he was always wrestling with his conscience and just needed a push to do the right thing. Maybe Carter found him and convinced him to talk.
Shaw: Naturally she would've stayed with Northern Lights if Team Machine hadn't found her. In fact, the "flash-sideways" seems to have been set in the first season, since her target was a PoI from a first-season episode, and her partner was still alive and only starting to question things. So maybe she would've ended up assassinated anyway. In this case, the Machine seems to have been following Orson Welles's advice that whether a story has a happy ending depends on where you choose to end it.
Root: If Samaritan were the only ASI around, then of course Ms. Groves would've become its acolyte, and would've remained a ruthless killer without the Machine to teach her the value of human life.
As for the finale:
Potent stuff. I do feel the whole Ice-9 virus thing was a bit of a deus ex machina, but the idea that it was powerful enough to crash the whole Internet somewhat justifies both why it would work against Samaritan and why they didn't use it before. And whatever the technical quibbles, the finale was a nice examination of the Machine's experience with her existence and her mission. Letting Amy Acker appear on camera as the figurative face of the Machine was a nice touch. It was right that she was there at the end.
Reese sacrificing himself made sense. I liked the bit about how he and the Machine had a deal that they wouldn't let Harold die. Although it sort of drives home that Reese had already dead-ended as a character, with little purpose in the show except as the muscle, since everyone he had a history with was dead and the emotional center of the show had shifted to Root, Finch, Shaw, and the Machine herself. He really was the most expendable character at this point (and yes, I am counting the dog).
And I appreciate it that they cut to black the instant the cruise missile hit the building. We really didn't need to see footage of a Manhattan skyscraper being blown up, thank you. The discretion is welcome.
Harold revealing himself to Grace is a sweet ending, but I do wonder if it's really safe now. I mean, even if there's no longer an ASI-led surveillance state searching for him, he did just issue a nuclear threat, so you'd think somebody would be hunting down a man who meets his description. But maybe we can assume the Machine 3.0 is protecting him and Grace now.
Speaking of her, I'm not sure where the surviving iteration of the Machine is storing herself. We never really saw what happened to the subway car after Blackwell got away. Although I like the idea that the Machine is just keeping the car in constant motion, roving around the subway tunnels like a ghost, to keep herself from being tracked down. I'm also wondering if the new Machine still has Root's persona, since it was just her base kernel rather than the whole program, and the tape message from Machine 2.0 suggested that 3.0 would have to learn from scratch, rather than just being able to restore from backup. (And yes, I know I'm probably using the version numbers inaccurately, since these are just different iterations of the same software, but it gets the point across.) But Shaw's little smile at the end there suggests that she heard a familiar voice on the phone.
So the brave new world: The surviving iteration of the Machine is still here to protect us, and Sameen and Bear are still on board as her operatives, apparently. Fusco's still around to help out, though I'm not clear on how he got out from under the bad situation he was in with the cops. And we still have Harper and the others working for Thornhill Industries as Machine operatives in other cities. Maybe they'll let Finch enjoy his retirement, or maybe he'll get back into the game because he can't stand by if he's able to help.
I agree with Christopher.
Reese wasn't going anywhere as a character, hasn't for a while (maybe since Carter's death and the aftermath of that), and the focus had shifted towards especially Root and Finch. But it was right to team Reese and Finch up for the finale again, a nod back to the beginning where it was just the two of them, Reese hired for the "legwork" and Finch not expecting a friendship. I thought Reese sacrificing himself made perfect sense, he had nothing to get back to in the "real" world, and I have to admit the whole scene with Reese, Finch and Root (aka the Machine) had me shed some tears.
As for the alternate reality without a machine: I think Reese is referring to Carter saving him by arresting him because maybe he'd have killed himself that night, before even meeting with Finch.
I'm really happy they ended it in this scripted way, not just letting the series go on forever and losing steam. And they still managed to keep some doors open: the Machine survives, the team in Washington, Shaw in contact with the Machine. Finally, I think it's quite deliberate that the Machine didn't contact Finch, deciding to leave him out of any further business and let him have his happy ending.
Well, I'll certainly miss this show.
Reese wasn't going anywhere as a character, hasn't for a while (maybe since Carter's death and the aftermath of that), and the focus had shifted towards especially Root and Finch. But it was right to team Reese and Finch up for the finale again, a nod back to the beginning where it was just the two of them, Reese hired for the "legwork" and Finch not expecting a friendship. I thought Reese sacrificing himself made perfect sense, he had nothing to get back to in the "real" world, and I have to admit the whole scene with Reese, Finch and Root (aka the Machine) had me shed some tears.
As for the alternate reality without a machine: I think Reese is referring to Carter saving him by arresting him because maybe he'd have killed himself that night, before even meeting with Finch.
I'm really happy they ended it in this scripted way, not just letting the series go on forever and losing steam. And they still managed to keep some doors open: the Machine survives, the team in Washington, Shaw in contact with the Machine. Finally, I think it's quite deliberate that the Machine didn't contact Finch, deciding to leave him out of any further business and let him have his happy ending.
Well, I'll certainly miss this show.
Just to be clear, Reese said that to Carter a couple of years ago, in her last episode as a regular, I think. Anyway, you may be right about his reasoning, but it still felt like something the writers forced in an attempt to play up the Reese-Carter relationship just before she died.
Maybe, but would Harold really be content to just sit back and leave things be? We know him better than that, I think. He'd surely notice signs that the Machine was still out there, intervening in world affairs to stave off acts of violence, and his conscience wouldn't let him do nothing when he knew he could help.
Especially when you consider something the episode glossed over: that the global disruptions caused by the Ice-9 virus would probably have caused a lot of deaths, from plane crashes or hospital power failures or traffic system breakdowns or the like. Harold had to cross a moral event horizon to be willing to enact this plan at all, even for the greater good. And given that everything he's done for the past five years has been driven by guilt and atonement for the harm he's done, I don't see that changing now. He's going to want to help somehow. Even if the Machine tries to keep him out of the loop, he won't settle for that.
What could he possibly say to Claire to make up for his fake death that she would accept and want him back.
I don't think Claire would be that vindictive. I mean, in the flashback in this very episode, she said explicitly that she didn't care what secrets Harold was still keeping, because she loved him anyway. So she'll just be happy to get him back. And all he has to do is explain that he was in danger and he stayed away from her in order to keep her safe. Given that she was kidnapped by Greer and interrogated about Harold not that long ago, I think she would readily recognize the truth in that.
I suppose your correct, although it feels a little odd. Poi was a great show. I'll miss it. Maybe they can revisit it in the future.
They've always been a little wonky on what The Machine can see, but how could it have personally witnessed John attending his father's funeral before it ever existed? Was a professional cameraperson filming young John with closeups from the other side of the casket and saved the video for twenty-five years until YouTube was invented and they could upload it? Or can we assume it was a metaphorical vision and The Machine picked up something it heard John relate in a story about his father to his psychologist or an Army buddy and just extrapolated how the funeral scene looked from there?
Also a little strange was Samaritan carrying on a conversation with Harold in Times Square while Harold spoke in his usual whisper in the middle of a crowd, and yet Samaritan could not tell its minions exactly where he was. How could it know exactly what he was saying to respond to him and yet not know his precise location?
I know I'm being nitpicky and it's just dramatic license, and neither of those things hampered my enjoyment of a very poignant episode, but both of those did take me out of the narrative for a moment to go "huh?"
Another thing I was wondering was when the previews showed a missile streaking across the sky, I thought for sure it was going to be from the missile silo Root secured access to over the phone a few episodes back, and that it was being used to take down Samaritan. Yet in this episode the missile came from a Samaritan hacked US Navy destroyer and the missile silo subplot was completely dropped. I assume it was a victim of the shortened season, but I wonder if it's possible that The Machine was having Root secure it a new home for one of its backups?
I have more thoughts on the episode, but I just wanted to post those before I forgot.
Also a little strange was Samaritan carrying on a conversation with Harold in Times Square while Harold spoke in his usual whisper in the middle of a crowd, and yet Samaritan could not tell its minions exactly where he was. How could it know exactly what he was saying to respond to him and yet not know his precise location?
I know I'm being nitpicky and it's just dramatic license, and neither of those things hampered my enjoyment of a very poignant episode, but both of those did take me out of the narrative for a moment to go "huh?"
Another thing I was wondering was when the previews showed a missile streaking across the sky, I thought for sure it was going to be from the missile silo Root secured access to over the phone a few episodes back, and that it was being used to take down Samaritan. Yet in this episode the missile came from a Samaritan hacked US Navy destroyer and the missile silo subplot was completely dropped. I assume it was a victim of the shortened season, but I wonder if it's possible that The Machine was having Root secure it a new home for one of its backups?
I have more thoughts on the episode, but I just wanted to post those before I forgot.
Ever since "If-Then-Else," I've suspected that the entire series was the Machine's (and Samaritan's) internal simulation of the events she witnessed and extrapolated. We've seen many flashbacks going back decades where the only archival surveillance references we saw in the Machine's-eye view were satellite photos from orbit, but then we'd cut to interior scenes with full dialogue. The Machine predicts people by modeling their personalities, which she does by assembling all available information about their lives and behavior. With accurate enough models, she could predict or retrodict (yes, that's a word) their behavior and interactions with a high degree of probability.
Heck, Elon Musk believes we're all living in a computer simulation anyway....
It did. Remember, at the end of the scene, Root-Machine warned Harold that Samaritan was just trying to delay him long enough for its operatives to catch up to him. And no doubt getting him to talk back (and be picked up by a hundred nearby cell-phone mikes) helped Samaritan triangulate his position. The only reason they didn't get him faster is because it was the middle of Times Square and it was crowded.
I figure the Machine's main copy is in orbit/satellite now.
I rarely get this emotional over a TV show and then it's mostly "Hell Yeah" moments when a character pulls off a cool action or where some plans work out great but in this one i choked up a bit.
The music, the revelation that both the Machine and Reese were watching out for Harold and that Reese went down for his friend... Reese as a character could have been very one note but during the show they did quite well in broadening his scope and breathing life into him. I kinda missed this in season 5 where he was basically just there when a gunfight was about to happen but all this is forgotten when i saw him die for the cause.
Root/The Machine reflecting on death and what it means to be human is something Samaritan never cared for.. Samaritan was the quintessential computer at an extremely high level but it still was basically operating on a Yes or No logic.. will this action be positive for my goal or not. It never understood humanity nor did it try to and that was Finch's crowning achievement.. that he could teach a machine to understand humans and what it means to a human.
In that regard Person of Interest was one of the best written shows i ever saw (i know there are others but i have a job and a life and can't be a 24/7 TV junkie
) and i'm happy that i listened to my friends years ago who implored me to give this show a shot.. never regretted it and it will be a benchmark show for me if people ever ask me on tips about good Science Fiction shows that don't involve spaceships or laser guns.
A smart, insightful show that ended just at the right time and perfectly!
The music, the revelation that both the Machine and Reese were watching out for Harold and that Reese went down for his friend...
Reese as a character could have been very one note but during the show they did quite well in broadening his scope and breathing life into him. I kinda missed this in season 5 where he was basically just there when a gunfight was about to happen but all this is forgotten when i saw him die for the cause.Root/The Machine reflecting on death and what it means to be human is something Samaritan never cared for.. Samaritan was the quintessential computer at an extremely high level but it still was basically operating on a Yes or No logic.. will this action be positive for my goal or not. It never understood humanity nor did it try to and that was Finch's crowning achievement.. that he could teach a machine to understand humans and what it means to a human.
In that regard Person of Interest was one of the best written shows i ever saw (i know there are others but i have a job and a life and can't be a 24/7 TV junkie
) and i'm happy that i listened to my friends years ago who implored me to give this show a shot.. never regretted it and it will be a benchmark show for me if people ever ask me on tips about good Science Fiction shows that don't involve spaceships or laser guns.A smart, insightful show that ended just at the right time and perfectly!
A nice finale that wraps everything up while leaving an opening. Otherwise, most of the episode felt very basic. I did tear up a little when Harold reunited with Claire and I smiled when John revealed that he had a long-standing agreement with the Machine. I also liked the flashback conversation between Harold and Claire about his father; now we know the source of Harold's affinity for birds. Speaking of which, did we ever learn what his real last name was?
It's a damn shame CBS is so hellbent on having procedural shows. That obvious forced course direction really hurt Person of Interest, one of my biggest complaints about the show since the beginning (along with the often wooden dialogue). I feel like this show would have really shined on a non-network channel, whether was FX, AMC, HBO or Netflix. Alas. With Person of Interest over, Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. is now the only network show I care about anymore. Everything else is from the aforementioned sources (along with Amazon, BBC and couple others).
I'm really disappointed that I appear to be the only person who appreciates the Ice-9 reference.
What was the other show?
It's a damn shame CBS is so hellbent on having procedural shows. That obvious forced course direction really hurt Person of Interest, one of my biggest complaints about the show since the beginning (along with the often wooden dialogue). I feel like this show would have really shined on a non-network channel, whether was FX, AMC, HBO or Netflix. Alas. With Person of Interest over, Agent's of S.H.I.E.L.D. is now the only network show I care about anymore. Everything else is from the aforementioned sources (along with Amazon, BBC and couple others).
Thank you for the insights. All of them sound about right. Reese was my biggest question considering his complicated history and how it tied in with the early days of the Machine.
I must admit I hadn't considered that perspective. I liked the sudden black out from a narrative angle, but the need for respect to Manhattan is clear, too. I probably didn't think of that since I haven't been there since '89.
Considering Harold was able to escape the Federal Reserve without any problem after making said threat, being able to keep a low profile is nothing.
This was another problem I had with the show as a whole. While it did explore the nature of privacy and artificial intelligence, it often glossed over repercussions of the characters' actions throughout the series. And when it did focus a little on those repercussions, it's only ever within the lens of New York City.
I'm really disappointed that I appear to be the only person who appreciates the Ice-9 reference.
I'm really disappointed that I appear to be the only person who appreciates the Ice-9 reference.
Haven't seen the episode yet (season 5 hasn't aired here yet) but I recognize Ice-9 - though possibly not the same one you're thinking of?
I've seen it on an album my Dad has of Joe Satriani (and I remember it being mentioned if a film I've seen, The Recruit.) I'm thinking it's more a reference to Kurt Vonnegut though?
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