Paramount apparently still doesn't get it...

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by IRW Bloodwing, Apr 2, 2023.

  1. Dar70

    Dar70 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think we ever saw the level we saw with Discovery. Many continuity errors in TOS was due to it still in world building phase and it's episodic format back than. No one knew it was gonna spawn several shows and films. Each episode was very self contained.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2023
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  2. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, they made for an emotionally stunted show that was inhibited from reaching the fullest heights of artistic maturity. TNG is well-remembered in spite of those rules, not because of them.

    DS9 actively worked to deconstruct those limitations at every turn. We would never have seen a TNG-style Sisko dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight.

    I mean, I don't really think the idea that people might use drugs to cope with the stress of being trapped in a tin can in the vast void of outer space conflicts with the idea of a progressive, egalitarian future. Life planetside can be truly wonderful and egalitarian while life aboard your space navy/space explorers ship can still be difficult enough that some people would be tempted to turn to drug use to cope. Hell, we already know life in Starfleet is more hierarchical than civilian life.

    I could imagine someone in Starfleet looking to deal on the side either because there are limited amounts of wealth inequality (nothing to the point of poverty or classism) and/or because it would create informal clout and influence for them.

    I think Rios might have a bone to pick with you for calling him an American. ;)

    I agree, and I think we see this in PIC. Raffi's idea of living rough is... having secure shelter, good nutrition, good health care, access to the planetary Internet, and enough surplus wealth to afford some recreational drugs. Even in a world where people are more flawed than they were depicted in TNG, most of the things people are fighting over in PIC are not about scarce resources. They're about fundamental beliefs, or finding a purpose in your life, or dealing with disillusionment with institutions.

    I strongly disagree with you here, especially with regards to DIS. The area where DIS is probably most progressive and genuinely optimistic in its depiction of a better future, is that DIS depicts as normal the use of mental health care to cope with profound trauma. Characters on DIS have a much healthier relationship with their emotions than the characters on TNG -- they openly share their pain and allow themselves to be vulnerable with one-another, and they treat reciprocal vulnerability with respect and care rather than as weakness to be overcome. That is a much better vision of a bright future than a world where people magically don't experience emotions like grief, as one TNG episode claimed.

    He was absolutely a racist. Even that line is a racist line -- he refuses to address Glinn Daro by his rank or name, and instead only addresses him by the name of his species. He refuses to see Daro as an individual; he's just a Cardassian, and he holds all Cardassians as responsible for the actions of the Cardassian Guard during the war.

    He remains racist on DS9. In "Cardassians," when Miles and Keiko host the Cardassian child Rugal (who had been raised by Bajorans after being abandoned by the Cardassians as an orphan), he is horrified to learn Keiko allowed Rugal to play with Molly. The following exchange occurs:

    O'BRIEN: You let them play together?
    KEIKO: Why not?
    O'BRIEN: The boy almost bit somebody's hand off.
    KEIKO: I was with them all afternoon. He's not like that. He's really very gentle.
    O'BRIEN: Gentle was bred out of these Cardassians a long time ago.
    KEIKO: You know, that was a very ugly thing you just said.
    O'BRIEN: I only said.
    KEIKO: I don't need to hear it twice.


    Now, do I think O'Brien is an irredeemably racist person or not a good person? No. I think he's capable of overcoming his bigotry and has many positive qualities, and I think he's a good person overall. And I also think he gets better about this over the course of DS9. But he is absolutely an anti-Cardassian racist and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

    Indeed, more than a few episodes completely fall apart without wealth inequality as a structural feature of life out on the frontier, including "Mudd's Women" and "The Devil in the Dark."
     
  3. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Yeah can’t think of much in regards to continuity errors in DISCO. The Klingon make up thing is just badly executed. TOS had a hard time remembering what Klingons looked like. At least DISCO was consistent. :lol:
    Not sure how being episodic is a excuse for continuity errors. How far apart were “Amok Time” and “The Cloud Minders”?
     
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  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've gotten quite fatigued with the excuse making for past continuity errors but intolerance of current shows.
     
  5. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

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    They looked like humans with oily skin. Or sometimes not oily. That's about the extent of what TOS Klingons looked like.
     
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  6. Dar70

    Dar70 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No one would have to. But you guys keep bringing it up to make excuses for DISCO and SNW.. Again no one is saying there are not errors in all the shows. But believe it or not Discovery/SNW makes a sport out of it.

    Back in the 1960's they did not do arc based stories. Each episode was presented as a self contained story.TOS had growing pains like all the shows. Most continuity errors in TOS are minor compared to anything Disco/snw has done.
     
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  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. Because it's equal for all Star Trek. That's it. It's not a sport; it's literally how I've interacted with Trek my entire life.
    They're only minor because people declare them so. They are actually quite big in the scheme of Trek but no one wants to take away from the glorious vision of the original Trek. Never mind TMP, never mind TWOK, and never mind any thing else. Just focus on the evil errors in Discovery and SNW and declare it not Trek...

    Fatiguing. Yup, it's just fatiguing. There's no joy to it. Just kicking it as often as possible.
     
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  8. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    When it comes to past glitches versus modern glitches, there does seem to be a double standard when it comes to bashing the new shows and movies.

    Nitpicking STAR TREK and calling out perceived goofs has been a popular fannish sport for generations. Heck, there were entire volumes of "Nitpicker's Guides" published back in the day. The difference, or so it seems to me, is that nowadays any such glitches are seen as "proof" that the new stuff is not "real Trek," that the creators don't know anything about Star Trek, that we're in an alternate timeline, and are treated as crimes against fandom and "canon."

    But the old glitches are shrugged off as no big deal.

    Somehow calling out continuity errors has gone from being good, clean fun, something to joke about and take in stride, to a holy crusade to preserve the sacred canon -- and condemn the new stuff as heresies.

    Crazy idea: Maybe we retire the ominous phrase "canon violation" and go back to calling spotting such glitches "nitpicking."
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2023
  9. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To be fair, a proud Chilean is a proud American... As in the entire landmass of the western hemisphere is one continent, not two, called "America". To Brazilians, people from the US are "North American" (assumed to not be Mexican or Canadian) and to Argentinians (and even online forms in Spain!) we are "United States-ian". ;)

    :beer:

    And yes, not being able to discuss this one constructively in mutual good faith is a :brickwall:. I think it's partly designed to burn people out.
     
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  10. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    I know what else they're doing next, but I won't say. I know this board. If I tell you what it is, too many heads will explode.

    And no. I'm not talking about S31.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2023
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  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. That's the fatiguing part.
    Agreed.
    See above. It's used as a sword with which to disect new Trek for daring to not be like the Old Trek while nitpicking the same old Trek was all the time. Except, it's no longer for fun or light hearted debate but the not real Trek yardstick.

    It feels like searching for offense.
     
  12. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I say hold everything to the same standard. I feel like many people are actually being relatively lenient, especially in comparison to the reaction ENT's rather milquetoast revisionism that mainly challenged fanon, and took elements from "Balance of Terror" too literally, received back in the day (how could the Romulans not have had warp drive etc...).

    Is changing the size, capabilities, and appearance of the 2250's Enterprise (well beyond a visual reboot) on the same level as recasting Saavik? Can SNW and TOS believably co-exist in universe without prejudicing what came before?

    "I want to change Star Trek into being something more like Star Wars to obtain a wider audience" -- is that objective from back in 2009 therefore immune from any criticism? Picking winners and losers is a numbers game. I'd just hope the future of Star Trek proves to be less zero sum than with the Abramsverse and most of Kurtzman NuTrek.
     
  13. plebotamus

    plebotamus Ensign Newbie

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    I'd love for the writers of the next Trek series to take an approach much like Roddenberry did for early TNG - use the same universe but a brand new crew (as much as I appreciate Shaw), and don't use canon/continuity/Easter eggs from the older series every episode. It's a BIG galaxy.
     
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  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    My answer to both of those is yes.

    I don't see this as out of bounds. The TOS writers guide discusses appealing to a wider audience as possible to ensure viability. First and foremost Trek is a business and needs to be treated as such or it can become moribund, stuck in it's past and saying "Oh, remember when?" And if that happened tomorrow, honestly, life would continue the same. Why? Because there is a ton of content to share and discuss with within the fan base.

    But, do I find such a question bad to appeal to the broader audience? My answer is no, because in my experience it has allowed others who wouldn't touch SF to actually enjoy it. That's the appeal.
     
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  15. flandry84

    flandry84 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Interesting take on the Rugal incident,telling only half the story.
    In the episode O’Brien has an interesting conversation with the boy and during that chat O’B says that he has met both good and bad Cardassians and cannot generalise about any species.
     
  16. plebotamus

    plebotamus Ensign Newbie

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    Looking on the negative side, that's kind of a generic response that I've heard other people give when confronted with their own racism.

    On the positive side, l believe he says that after Keiko confronts him, so I imagine she started him thinking about what he said. He realized how he'd been acting and tried harder to change.
     
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  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Even people who struggle with racists will have their exceptions. Example-my friend is a 1/2 Latina and her husband's grandfather was a die hard racist. He would grump about it around family and then hug her and say "But you're my favorite."

    Despite what Star Trek taught us about racism it's not black and white...
     
  18. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    For me and many others, it just isn't. So again it becomes a picking winners and losers game when the franchise should be trying to keep onboard many existing fans while also appealing to new people.

    And sure, everything can come down to aesthetics, but it's not just the design of the original Constitution-class... tone, verisimilitude, political valence... For me, if I wasn't a pre-existing fan of the Star Trek franchise, I wouldn't have watched / tried ST09 / STID / STB or DISCOVERY, SNW, or PICARD season 1.

    Yes, Star Trek 09 was commercially successful. But STID and STB had higher budgets and proportionally less money coming in, so that many of the TOS and TNG films were on net more profitable investments. Chris Pine and former Paramount chief Emma Watts have both argued on the film side you'll likely hit the ceiling of profitability at the $100MM mark, and need to plan from there.

    And, if you change it so much that it loses major portions of the original fanbase, you're gambling you'll pick up more people in their stead. DISCOVERY actually targets a much narrower demographic in its later seasons, so that's its own headscratcher. But it seems the TPTB want to try and retain its audience with a lower budget in SFA.

    Hopefully Legacy makes it as well!
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If we treat it as winners and losers then that's a terrible way. Imagine if I gave up on TNG and Trek because it wasn't my Trek. There is value in all of it. If I didn't have friends who encouraged (sometimes) me to try different aspects of TNG/DS9/VOY I probably never would have. There's no obligation there. There is no winners and no losers.

    Maybe. It depends.

    But, 09 was poorly handled sadly.

    Part of Trek's appeal is that it is an action/adventure series. If you frame in that way then you can appeal to a much wider base than just fans who nitpick everything. That's not viable to just have the nitpickers and say "screw the rest." nor is it viable to not realize that not everyone is going to come in with foreknowledge of the world. That's absurd.

    And I'm the opposite. I would have delved in, Star Trek fan or no. It appeals to me from a character point of view. Tech is nice but ugh does it get repetitive. Characters are my draw.

    It's in the money right now.
     
  20. cal888

    cal888 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It is the producers themselves that are picking the winners and losers. So as Terry Matalas has said, hopefully everyone can find their component or "flavor" of Trek in the current output.