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P/C: our thread is eternal

Back on topic, I'd like to (with all your permission, of course) have some discussion on the direction of BONC / P/C in the novels.

[So Valeris, while I may have been the originator of the "hot sex" phrase, I'd like to (respectfully - "please" sounds too overused :D ) have the potential smut-fest temporarily halted until the note discussion is complete. For my part, I will keep my gorgeous-hot-sexy-smart (GHSS) comments temporarily halted, too. :) ]

This afternoon I started "googling" "'Death In Winter' Picard," adding in words such as "confession" and "ending."

Whoa Nellie said:
Of course, this reasoning completely contradicts the on screen canon. In "Attached" Picard says to Beverly, "And then, little by little, I realized that I didn't have those feelings anymore . . . twenty years is, after all, a long time."

Keep in mind what happened shortly afterwards, though: those feelings were reignited in his dreams, and he even talked about them to her face in his quarters (EDIT: Or, rather, she talked about them to his face before he responded). Now, as for her rebuff for the sake of preserving their then-friendship, who knows if it killed those feelings canonically?

[Probably not, given that brief scene in STAR TREK: NEMESIS where they both look at Tom Hardy in a Starfleet Academy uniform. I think she laid her hands on his shoulder in that scene, if I remember.]
 
Hammer said:
Whoa Nellie said:
Of course, this reasoning completely contradicts the on screen canon. In "Attached" Picard says to Beverly, "And then, little by little, I realized that I didn't have those feelings anymore . . . twenty years is, after all, a long time."

Keep in mind what happened shortly afterwards, though: those feelings were reignited in his dreams, and he even talked about it to her face in his quarters.

In "Attached" all we are told is that Picard had some very interesting dreams. We are never told exactly what or whom he dreamed about.
……………….

Beverly: "You know, last night I couldn't sleep."
Picard: "Oh?"
Beverly: "I was awake for several hours and, thanks to the implants, I got to hear some very interesting dreams of yours."
Picard: "A man cannot be held responsible for what his mind does while he's asleep."
Beverly: "What about when he's awake?"
Picard: "So now that we've had this unique experience, what do we do?
Beverly: "What do you mean?"
Picard: "You know exactly what I mean."
Beverly: "No, I don't. The implants have been removed, remember?"
Picard: "Now that we know how each of us feels, perhaps we should not be afraid to explore those feelings."
Beverly: "Or perhaps we should be afraid."
………………….

Maybe he had dreamed about Beverly and he wanted to see if he could recapture the feelings that had slowly died over twenty years. Possibly Beverly bolted having already seen the fate that befell Daren's career when Picard had a love affair with her the year before. Or maybe, as I hypothesized in my story "Connections," he dreamed about someone else entirely, such as Vash, and Beverly bolted because she knew she wasn't his first choice.

We'll never know exactly what Picard's dreams were -- canon doesn't tell us. Canon does tell us that little by little, he realized that he didn't have those feelings anymore.

Hammer said:
Now, as for her rebuff for the sake of preserving their then-friendship, who knows if it killed those feelings canonically?

It seemed to me that in the movie Insurrection, while Riker is chasing after Deanna, Picard is a little too busy having that perfect moment with Anij to even notice Dr. Crusher. The good captain seemed to have moved on to greener pastures or at least flightier hummingbirds. :lol:

Hammer said:
[Probably not, given that brief scene in STAR TREK: NEMESIS where they both look at Tom Hardy in a Starfleet Academy uniform. I think she laid her hands on his shoulder in that scene, if I remember.]

People wonder why I write P/V. It is so much easier! P/C shippers end up parsing every word between the two characters and analyzing every look and gesture for something to grasp on to. I have two full episodes filled with this:


kiss02.jpg


It is so much simpler. Just bring Vash on board the Enterprise and let them pick up where they left off. No chain of command or ghost of dead husband/best friend to get in the way. Life is good! :)


As far as DIW, I still say you can find much better P/C stuff online for free.

Edited to add: I'm happy to be part of breathing life back into this thread. For a while there it looked like this thread wasn't going to be quite so eternal. :)

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie
 
Well, I cracked open TNG: Q & A this mornin', while waitin' for breakfast, and after the first two prologues, the openin' chapter starts with P/C havin' breakfast in bed.

I almost lost my appetite.
 
^^^ In what manner? :confused: [You just don't like the relationship or something? :confused: ]

Did the book say "coffee and croissant," or was Picard actually interested in something else at that point? [DETAILS! :drool: I take it the two of them were SITTING on the bed with each other, since eating while lying down on the bed is quite awkward, no?]
 
od0_ital said:
Well, I cracked open TNG: Q & A this mornin', while waitin' for breakfast, and after the first two prologues, the openin' chapter starts with P/C havin' breakfast in bed.

*Nearly chokes on her coffee* Heavens! Trek novels have certainly moved on since I last read them. :lol:

Whoa Nellie said:
As far as DIW, I still say you can find much better P/C stuff online for free.

I haven't read DIW but there is a wealth of TNG fic, P/C and otherwise here at the archived website for Orion Press's TNG fic, Eridani.
 
Whoa Nellie said:
We'll never know exactly what Picard's dreams were -- canon doesn't tell us. Canon does tell us that little by little, he realized that he didn't have those feelings anymore.

To be nitpicky, what canon actually tells us is that what Picard chose to say out loud at that point was that he didn't have those feelings any more. That might seem like a P/C fan trying to wriggle out of it, but part of the conceit of the episode is that (teasingly) we the audience don't get to be privy to a lot of what's going on, so statements made aloud become ambiguous. A major theme of Attached from P/C to the Kes and Pritt is breakdown of communication and misinterpretation. While this (deliberately, I think) gives leg room to fans who don't share the P/C love, I think it's still a million lightyears from a flat-out "he doesn't want her, and she doesn't want him."

Attached itself is filled with contradictory signals and a boatload of chemistry. It comes after years of onscreen do they?/don't they?/are they?/why the hell aren't they? chemistry. It's followed up by subsequent very deliberate suggestions that the thing's not been resolved in Sub Rosa and All Good Things.

Attached doesn't do what P/C fans might want it to, but it doesn't sink P/C either.

People wonder why I write P/V. It is so much easier! P/C shippers end up parsing every word between the two characters and analyzing every look and gesture for something to grasp on to. I have two full episodes filled with this:

It is so much simpler. Just bring Vash on board the Enterprise and let them pick up where they left off. No chain of command or ghost of dead husband/best friend to get in the way. Life is good! :)

True, but you've also got a hundred and ten episodes of absolutely nothing post-Captain's Holiday which would drive me up the wall insane if I tried to ship your ship :D

To each their own tastes. P/V, it seems to me from the outside, is a great ship for cut-to-the-chase adventure, passion and swashing of buckles :). But I'm a P/C masochist to the core, and I love it because of the chain of command, the dead husband, and the frustrating mixed signals.

I did not love Death in Winter. Death in Winter was - to offer a deeply incisive critical evaluation - a silly book.
 
SiorX said:

To be nitpicky, what canon actually tells us is that what Picard chose to say out loud at that point was that he didn't have those feelings any more.

……………
Picard: "And then, little by little, I realized that I didn't have those feelings anymore . . . twenty years is, after all, a long time."
Beverly: "And now we're friends."
…………….

They are telepathically linked there is no reason for them to lie about it. He doesn't have those feelings anymore and they have become friends.

SiorX said:
I think it's still a million lightyears from a flat-out "he doesn't want her, and she doesn't want him."

Beverly says "Or perhaps we should be afraid." And then she walks out, literally shutting the door on a canon P/C relationship.

In the alternate time line in "All Good Things" the marriage between Picard and Crusher ends in divorce.

Events in Insurrection would seem to nail the canon door shut. With the effects of the Ba'ku planet, a randy Riker starts chasing after Deanna. Picard does not chase after Crusher. Instead, he begins a romantic relationship with Anij.

SiorX said:
True, but you've also got a hundred and ten episodes of absolutely nothing post-Captain's Holiday which would drive me up the wall insane if I tried to ship your ship :D

:D I'm assuming you meant Qpid. Captain's Holiday was the first Vash episode. Qpid was the second. I absolutely love the ending of Qpid with a mischievous Vash about to head off on a grand adventure with Q and a protective Picard demands of Q, "As payment in full of your debt to me, you will guarantee her safety."

Talk about leaving all the toys in the sandbox wide open to play with! :cool: :D

SiorX said:
To each their own tastes. P/V, it seems to me from the outside, is a great ship for cut-to-the-chase adventure, passion and swashing of buckles :)

:thumbsup: :D Which is why I adore the P/V ship, I love a good old-fashioned romantic romp! As you said to each their own taste.

SiorX said:
I did not love Death in Winter. Death in Winter was - to offer a deeply incisive critical evaluation - a silly book.

:lol: :thumbsup: Which is why I said you can find much better P/C fanfic for free. I would recommend starting with Ke Roth's excellent P/C stories.

Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie.
 
Whoa Nellie said:

Beverly says "Or perhaps we should be afraid." And then she walks out, literally shutting the door on a canon P/C relationship.

In the alternate time line in "All Good Things" the marriage between Picard and Crusher ends in divorce.

Events in Insurrection would seem to nail the canon door shut. With the effects of the Ba'ku planet, a randy Riker starts chasing after Deanna. Picard does not chase after Crusher. Instead, he begins a romantic relationship with Anij.

Your post reminds me of the kissing dialogue in AGT. Instead of x-number of years, just use the number "4." :angel:

SiorX said:

I did not love Death in Winter. Death in Winter was - to offer a deeply incisive critical evaluation - a silly book.

Care to elucidate, besides Dr. Crusher's "fool" line at the end? :confused:
 
Whoa Nellie said:
……………
Picard: "And then, little by little, I realized that I didn't have those feelings anymore . . . twenty years is, after all, a long time."
Beverly: "And now we're friends."
…………….

They are telepathically linked there is no reason for them to lie about it. He doesn't have those feelings anymore and they have become friends.

I didn't mean exactly that he's lying, but there's a lot more going on than is said aloud. Like I said, there's a lot of questions about failure to communicate in Attached - from the opening conversation about Ogawa, to the Kes/Prytt divide, to the map that's so clear to the Kes operatives, but ambiguous to the Starfleet officers following it, to Beverly's anecdote about Tom Norris. Failure to communicate has also been a running gag in the P/C relationship ("There's something I've been meaning to tell you.")

Earlier in the episode, Picard and Crusher have discussed the difference between reacting to each other's thoughts and to each other's words. They misinterpret and still have to puzzle things out loud ("You hate having breakfast with me."). Quite early on, they come to a sort of mutual understanding that each should pay heed to what the other says, not what the other thinks.

In the firelight scene, most of what goes on is unspoken. We aren't privy to their thoughts, but neither of them looks very comfortable that it's all water under the bridge between pals. However, in order to properly rationalise whatever is between them, by their own rules they need to say it aloud. So two options they go for are the safe ground of "Now we're friends" which is of course an obvious truth whatever else they are, and Picard's avowal that he doesn't have "those feelings" anymore.

What's left ambiguous is what exactly "those" feelings are (does he mean his love for her? does he mean his guilt over it? is he deliberately shutting down further investigation into just what feelings he does have now?). They finish with the friends line, but neither of them look as though they feel the matter is entirely resolved at this point. There's an ambiguity there.

Beverly says "Or perhaps we should be afraid." And then she walks out, literally shutting the door on a canon P/C relationship.

But Beverly's answer is precisely that - fear. Not an acknowledgement that there's nothing but platonic friendship between them, but fear over dealing with whatever else there is which they still haven't named (which IMO is the ocean of unresolved sexual tension). The look she gives him when she teases him about his dreams is downright lascivious. They have an opportunity where they're closer to the brink than they've ever been before, and they choose not to take it. Symbollically, yes, she closes a door and he blows out a candle, but on an opportunity to move their relationship forward, not on the whole notion that there are more feelings than just friendship between them. The sexual tension is still there to raise its head in 'Sub Rosa' and in the non Q-created present of 'All Good Things'.

They know there's a huge amount at stake should they try and fail - as explored in the potential future of 'All Good Things'. It'd take quite a catalyst to get them past that - and there's always the possibility that such a catalyst will never occur. Still, though they choose not to explore it, to my mind the fact that the sexual tension between them is clearly there always leaves the door open a crack.

Events in Insurrection would seem to nail the canon door shut. With the effects of the Ba'ku planet, a randy Riker starts chasing after Deanna. Picard does not chase after Crusher. Instead, he begins a romantic relationship with Anij.

Admittedly, my little shipper heart would have burst with joy if they'd used the movies to further P/C, and the fact that they didn't was, obviously, disappointing. It'd be disingenuous to deny that.

But I don't think Baku's about romantic trysts so much as it's about what-might-have-beens in general. For Picard it's the what-might-have-been of not having chosen Starfleet at all. That, and it gives him a sampler of a possible retirement - a chance to choose the quiet country life of his youth rather than the life of the Starfleet adventurer. Beverly's too much a part his real life to fit into that little experiment. Ultimately, he goes back to Starfleet and to adventure, presumably because he's bright enough to know what an awful, dull, schmoopy, miserable place Baku'd be full time. While he finds a part of himself he always wondered about on Baku, the real Picard belongs out in the stars, hanging out with the kind of people who get off their arses and learn to swim. ;)

I love P/C, but I love Picard's character independently of that too, and I'd be more upset about what it meant for his character than for the 'ship if I couldn't dismiss Baku as him playacting for the novelty of it. He has a deep spiritual appreciation for the perfect frozen moment, but the Picard we know would never be content to live in it forever. We saw that with the Nexus in 'Generations'.

Whoa Nellie said::D I'm assuming you meant Qpid. Captain's Holiday was the first Vash episode. Qpid was the second.

Sorry. My not communicate good. I meant "Captain's Holiday" but in the sense that we meet Vash in that episode, and then there are a hundred and eleven episodes after that, in only one of which she shows up again. QPid is indeed a great episode in lots of ways. :D Sorry for my not good express:).

Yeah, for all the joy I have in P/C being relaunch novel canon, I've seen it done better in fanfic. (Mind you, I've seen it done a lot more poorly in fanfic too. There is very much bad fanfic on the internet, but this is true of all fandoms and all pairings.)
 
Hammer said:
SiorX said:

I did not love Death in Winter. Death in Winter was - to offer a deeply incisive critical evaluation - a silly book.

Care to elucidate, besides Dr. Crusher's "fool" line at the end? :confused:

Oops. Sorry. I missed this while I was birthing the teal deer above.

"Silly" was unfairly flippant.

When I say silly, I suppose I mean that it seemed a simplistic resolution to a relationship which was very complicated in canon. Beverly's irritation at him playing hero followed by her turn around decision that she'd been a fool (with no further explanation as to why) struck me as a straw man. It didn't really seem to resolve the actual canon problem of why they never hooked up before.

Similarly, why is Picard now suddenly so ready to acknowledge his feelings when he's been just as reticent about the whole thing as she has all these years? If he'd genuinely believed she'd been killed it might have made sense, but it's not written that way.

And what about the chain of command and the problem of their relative positions? I've never thought that was insurmountable, but it's an issue Crusher's raised before so it's one that canon suggested needed to be addressed. What about Beverly's career? What exactly triggered her 'I've been a fool' epiphany now that never had before? She's a strong, intelligent, passionate woman. There were probably reasons she chose not to pursue it before. What were they? What was she afraid of that's different now?

Er, you asked apart from the 'fool' bit. The 'fool' bit really was a lot of it, actually.
 
Oh, great...my favorite book. Just what I wanted to come back to. ;)

---

Stewart is so subtle with that "little by little" line that we can tell there's something else behind it, which she would be privy to, above and beyond what he's saying. He may very well have been lying and she may very well have been letting him. I'm not going to go so far as to say that he wasn't. I think there's a very good arguement that he was. Then again, you could also argue that he just regretted letting that slip away, and that he was telling the truth. I need to watch the performance again before I decide what it looks like to me.

---

Speaking of shipping, who is that in AV's av this time? That does not look like an established political figure. :D :cool:
 
It's been ten days, and since the "note" discussion is complete, I was wondering if any P/C fanfic writers out there are working on a P/C story set between "Death In Winter" and "Resistance" (or maybe something past the latter).

Thanks. :)
 
Now that you've mentioned it, I might.

Re: Death in Winter. I posted a critique in the Trek Lit forum yesterday, and, suffice to say, I agree with Whoa Nellie.

There's better P/C online, for free.
 
Scatta said:
Speaking of shipping, who is that in AV's av this time? That does not look like an established political figure. :D :cool:

:p

Was it the black and white av you saw? Or the Jackie Kennedy? Or the girl with the headphones?
 
^The girl with the headphones

And speaking of avs and getting a bit closer to topic, I'm looking at one have of Gates McFadden right now. There's something about the lighting that makes that the freakiest picture of her I've ever seen. It's not the most flattering picture, but it's kind of cool anyway. It's not bad...but it is...but it's not...but it is...but it's just very different.
 
Scatta said:
I'm looking at one have of Gates McFadden right now. There's something about the lighting that makes that the freakiest picture of her I've ever seen. It's not the most flattering picture, but it's kind of cool anyway. It's not bad...but it is...but it's not...but it is...but it's just very different.

That was specifically a picture that I REALLY liked! :mad:

And since you basically resumed the "GHSS" discussion:

SiorX said:
Hammer said:
Spider said:
I don't care what yall say. Mama Crusher is hot. I'd do her in a heartbeat.

As long as the kid ain't around. :p

That's the spirit, laddie! :drool: :thumbsup:

Well, actually, no. "Mama Crusher is hot" ONLY? You get 25% for your effort. :p

Ooh! Ooh! Professor! *Waves hand in the air.*

She's also gorgeous, sexy and smart. I know this are true, because of my learnings.

The "G" in "GHSS" is best tested under the most realistic circumstances: no set lighting (which tends to be too much), and hopefully not as much makeup to cover the obvious aging (she looked too artificially young in NEMESIS, but at least she didn't have much in the way of lipstick).

A relative lack of make-up shows a natural graceful aging. Valeris, if you're so picky about the lighting, then go back to that site and use these:

IMG_0320 (the first site with just her)
IMG_1157 (the site with the other actors)
IMG_1210 (the site with the other actors)

:(
 
AV You didn't need to change it.

Hammer I didn't even mean that as a negative reaction (it wasn't positive, but it wasn't negative). I didn't know he was going to take it down.
 
I'm schizophrenic with my avatars. *shrug*

Okay, during my 2nd period class today I managed to bang out this idea for a P/C fanfic set between Death in Winter and Resistance. Here it comes:

"An Enterprise-ing Adventure"

With the Enterprise almost finished with repairs, Picard decides to take himself and Beverly on a quick shore leave to what is reputedly one of the leading archaeological sites in the Alpha Quadrant, Pandor Asbox II. Leaving aboard the Captain's Yacht, the pair are plunged into an encounter teeming with thrills, intrigue, romance and exploration.

Canon Characters: Captain Picard, Doctor Crusher, Admiral Nechayev

Non-canon characters: Lieutenant Commander Shirra Cza (Enterprise Science Officer, Trill female)
Lieutenant Amalie Bareilles (Exoarchaeology Specialist)

I also have listed at the top of the page, under "P/C fanfic ideas":

Covert Mission
Vacation
Archaeological Adventure
TSFEM (Typical Starfleet Emergency Mission)
 
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