other ways for Kirk to die on Veridian III

[Captrek]

In respect of his "prophecy" from TFF about dying alone, I feel he should have died off camera. After all, he's not really alone if we're there watching him. His final words, pathetically begging for validation with "Did we make a difference?" strike me as unfitting of his character.

 

[2takesfrakes]

... maybe you're letting your Shatner hate distort the facts?

Rubbish! I don't hate William Shatner. I love Shatner in TOS. His hammy delivery and campy action style, like jumping up in the air and kicking someone, for example, worked perfectly with the kind of fun show that it was.

By this time, though, he did dip into the STAR TREK well once too often, by appearing in GENERATIONS. And by doing so, managed to steal my joy of TNG's motion picture début! ... Thief! THIEF!!! Stealing My Joy is his only crime. Well, that and his acting, in general - but especially, at The End. And he did much more than simply "sign on" to this project, as he was "above" the script that was initially handed to him. Indeed, he became a very large part of the creative processess that shaped the storyline of GENERATIONS.

 

[Franklin]

... maybe you're letting your Shatner hate distort the facts?

Rubbish! I don't hate William Shatner. I love Shatner in TOS. His hammy delivery and campy action style, like jumping up in the air and kicking someone, for example, worked perfectly with the kind of fun show that it was.

By this time, though, he did dip into the STAR TREK well once too often, by appearing in GENERATIONS. And by doing so, managed to steal my joy of TNG's motion picture début! ... Thief! THIEF!!! Stealing My Joy is his only crime. Well, that and his acting, in general - but especially, at The End. And he did much more than simply "sign on" to this project, as he was "above" the script that was initially handed to him. Indeed, he became a very large part of the creative processess that shaped the storyline of GENERATIONS.

Any technical suggestions aside, I can't recall ever reading that Shatner had a large part in actually shaping the GEN story. Is there a source for this? He certainly didn't have much say in editing, because his opening space jump scene was entirely cut. If Shatner had any real say at all, I can't imagine him standing for that scene ending up on the cutting room floor.

I do know that no one was satisfied with the first way they killed off Kirk when they saw it on film. No one. Not Shatner, not Berman. No one. It turned out to look as clinical and unheroic as killing off a random red shirt. So, are you referring to any input Shatner may have had in creating the rewritten and reshot death scene?

 

[PCz911]

Kirk is dead by Starfleet records. I say we use that technicallity and instead of killing him off perminently, we go an alternate route:

The battle on the mounain top continues, only this time Kirk orders Picard to get to the controls and that he'll handle Soran. Kirk depthly hands Soran his ass. They win.

There is some banter between the two. Picard says something like, "Come with me," persuading him to return to the mortal human plane of existance. For a second Kirk looks like he might, but the look quickly fades from his face and he smiles, looking at Picard

"Captain, you got things here. Go, take care of the Enterprise."

P: "But what about you?"

K: Big smile, "I'm going home," he hesistates, "maybe Antonia will have my eggs done. You should come -- best egg shaker this side of the galaxy, aside from me of course."

P: "Maybe another time."

K: "Your lose..." and he disappears into the white flash of light back into the Nexus. Proving, as Picard looks on, that the draw and appeal of the Nexus is so strong that even when you realize it for what it really is, you just want to go back.


A happy ending and a door left ajar to bring Kirk back to life.

Yup. This is better. Kirks death scene didn't have the emotional impact of spocks. It was poorly written and not at all compelling.

 

[Melakon]

After listening for 47 minutes as Picard gives a historical analysis of Federation principles and how the Prime Directive is currently interpreted, Kirk pulls out his phaser and shoots himself.

 

[eyeresist]

^ Kirk shoots Picard!

And he did much more than simply "sign on" to this project, as he was "above" the script that was initially handed to him. Indeed, he became a very large part of the creative processess that shaped the storyline of GENERATIONS.

The studio actually commission two scripts, one a "passing of the baton" and one stand-alone. They went with the first one. Shatner consulted on the script, largely by pointing out there was no sense having him in the movie unless he was important to the plot. The horse stuff was in the script as a lure to Shatner.

 

[Marsden]

After listening for 47 minutes as Picard gives a historical analysis of Federation principles and how the Prime Directive is currently interpreted, Kirk pulls out his phaser and shoots himself.

^ Kirk shoots Picard!

I don't think he would go for the phaser. Upon listening and noting Picard's ears aren't pointed, he would assume Picard was some kind of android and try to talk it to death ® ™ as only he could.

 

[Kirby]

I would have preferred that he die the same way Ricardo Montelban's character died in the Naked Gun - falling out of a baseball stadium, getting run over by a steam roller, then stomped on by a marching band.

 

[austen_pierce]

They really wrote themselves into a corner with this one. Kirk must die but not die pointlessly. Kirk can't kill Soran because that would nullify Picard. And so on...

And so (on?)... other (not necessarilly better) ways for Kirk to die on VIII:

- Slips and falls to his death. On his way down, screams "BE ONE WITH THE ROCK!!!"

- Picard drops Kirk during a treacherous assist between two high points. Picard shrugs and starts collecting rocks.

- Shot by Soran Indiana Jones style. Meaning Kirk peacocks and struts, delivers huge monologue, then raises his fists... only to have Soran drop him almost as an afterthought.

- Nexus arrives, sparkles, and Chris Pine steps out. <insert lame Kirk-Shatner-goes-crazy ending here>

- Soran presses wrong button on launcher remote. Rocket explodes on the pad taking Kirk out with it.

- Soran presses right button on launcher remote. Rocker takes off from the pad taking Kirk with it.

- Picard shoots Kirk. "This is MY god damn movie!"

- Kirk beams up to ENT-D. "This is MY god damn ship!" Enterprise crashes.

- Picard orders Enterprise to fire on the launcher. Worf counters that they are firing directly on their position. Picard overrules Worf and the torpedo takes out both Kirk and Picard. Riker whoops.

- Kirk struck by bird of pray debris

- Kirk joins Soran, returns with him to the Nexus. Waves goodbye to Picard with shit-eating grin. (stolen/modified from tharpdevenport )

And so on...

 

[JediKnightButler]

I would have preferred that Kirk died on board the Enterprise-D. Here's an alternate scenario that I've come up with would've improved things a bit IMHO:

Instead of the Enterprise-D separating with most hands aboard after its warp core damage from the Klingons, the Enterprise-D could have been prevented from doing so (i.e. some kind of technical malfunction) and the whole thing blows with all hands aboard (they all "die" anyway in the film when the Veridian star blows up) and Picard finds out about it and, like in the movie, he is also unable to stop Soran and enters the Nexus just like before. However, instead of Kirk fighting Soran with Picard, he winds up aboard the Enterprise-D (let's say on the Battle Bridge) and helps correct whatever malfunction occurred (operating secretly from the Battle Bridge) and enables the Enterprise-D to successfully separate, saving most of the crew and sending it crashing down to Veridian III. Kirk is, of course, killed in the subsequent warp core explosion and nobody but Picard knows or suspects that Kirk was involved in their miraculous escape (cue some kind of coy line from Picard about their escape at the end).

 

[JarodRussell]

I never really understood why Kirk had to die. They kept Scotty alive, why not Kirk?

I would have preferred that Kirk died on board the Enterprise-D. Here's an alternate scenario that I've come up with would've improved things a bit IMHO:

Instead of the Enterprise-D separating with most hands aboard after its warp core damage from the Klingons, the Enterprise-D could have been prevented from doing so (i.e. some kind of technical malfunction) and the whole thing blows with all hands aboard (they all "die" anyway in the film when the Veridian star blows up) and Picard finds out about it and, like in the movie, he is also unable to stop Soran and enters the Nexus just like before. However, instead of Kirk fighting Soran with Picard, he winds up aboard the Enterprise-D (let's say on the Battle Bridge) and helps correct whatever malfunction occurred (operating secretly from the Battle Bridge) and enables the Enterprise-D to successfully separate, saving most of the crew and sending it crashing down to Veridian III. Kirk is, of course, killed in the subsequent warp core explosion and nobody but Picard knows or suspects that Kirk was involved in their miraculous escape (cue some kind of coy line from Picard about their escape at the end).

Why not have him actually command the Enterprise-D in battle against the old Bird of Prey (which he knows best)?

 

[JediKnightButler]

I never really understood why Kirk had to die. They kept Scotty alive, why not Kirk?

I would have preferred that Kirk died on board the Enterprise-D. Here's an alternate scenario that I've come up with would've improved things a bit IMHO:

Instead of the Enterprise-D separating with most hands aboard after its warp core damage from the Klingons, the Enterprise-D could have been prevented from doing so (i.e. some kind of technical malfunction) and the whole thing blows with all hands aboard (they all "die" anyway in the film when the Veridian star blows up) and Picard finds out about it and, like in the movie, he is also unable to stop Soran and enters the Nexus just like before. However, instead of Kirk fighting Soran with Picard, he winds up aboard the Enterprise-D (let's say on the Battle Bridge) and helps correct whatever malfunction occurred (operating secretly from the Battle Bridge) and enables the Enterprise-D to successfully separate, saving most of the crew and sending it crashing down to Veridian III. Kirk is, of course, killed in the subsequent warp core explosion and nobody but Picard knows or suspects that Kirk was involved in their miraculous escape (cue some kind of coy line from Picard about their escape at the end).

Why not have him actually command the Enterprise-D in battle against the old Bird of Prey (which he knows best)?

I wouldn't have minded that though it would've been awkward for him to show up out of thin air and simply take command of the Enterprise. After all, he had been declared dead for 80 years. And, also, it's doubtful he would have known what to do about the Klingon BOP that Riker, et. al didn't already figure out, given that they had figured out how to penetrate the Enterprise's shields.

 

[Dukhat]

I never really understood why Kirk had to die. They kept Scotty alive, why not Kirk?

Because Kirk's death was mandated by Paramount.

 

[Melakon]

I never really understood why Kirk had to die. They kept Scotty alive, why not Kirk?

Because Kirk's death was mandated by Paramount.

Or we could phrase it as was sometimes heard in the various series-- Kirk's death was of paramount importance.

 

[horatio83]

I never really understood why Kirk had to die. They kept Scotty alive, why not Kirk?

Before TWOK Kirk has always cheated death. So in this sense GEN is just a continuation the theme of TWOK. Furthermore it never hurts to remind the fans that their beloved heroes are not immortal.

In general I never understood why so many people are pissed off about Kirk dieing and supposedly dieing not heroically. Gee, it is a about the stuff you do before you die, not about how glorious your end is. What matters is that Kirk saved over 200 million people, not how his and Picard's fight with Soran ended.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I never really understood why Kirk had to die. They kept Scotty alive, why not Kirk?

Because Kirk's death was mandated by Paramount.

Or we could phrase it as was sometimes heard in the various series-- Kirk's death was of paramount importance.

It was to liven up the dying Trek.

 

[Khan 2.0]

watched the discussion feature on the GEN BR and one of them said something how they think a big reason why Kirks death is so criticised etc is because the audience just dosnt care about the 200 million imaginary Veridian IV inhabitants. if it had been earth then itd have been different - which is why earth in peril featured so prominently in the sequels

 

[USS Triumphant]

In general I never understood why so many people are pissed off about Kirk dieing and supposedly dieing not heroically.

It is because WE ARE KLINGONS!

No, actually I think it's mainly that we didn't like Captain Kirk dying for a bad pun. (He died on the bridge. Oh ha ha.)

 

[eyeresist]

watched the discussion feature on the GEN BR and one of them said something how they think a big reason why Kirks death is so criticised etc is because the audience just dosnt care about the 200 million imaginary Veridian IV inhabitants.

Just inserting a couple of seconds of some satellite-style footage of the Veridian society would have made a big difference.