OTHER Starship Captains - Symbolism, Foreshadowing & Plot Devices

[siskokid888]

^Well said. But, are those subtle shadings enough for Trek fans' claims that it is a "groundbreaking" show in the medium of television? And have the later incarnations done enough to truly break it out of the "american culture" mode? My answer, on the surface, is no. DS9 played with it, but even in that show, military force became the way to extend the "correct" culture of the Federation. Can a form of entertainment meet this criteria at all? Are there successful examples?

 

[Captain Tracy]

Well it all depends on exactly what ground is being cited as being 'broken'. Obviously, TOS made massive in-roads in special effects, set design, wardrobe, etc; for TV of its time - and many will cite the promotion of 'minority races', and the pushing of the cultural envelope by Broadcast Standards of the day.

so like many things, the answer lay in how you are looking at the series.

As far as these 'Other TREKs' are concerned, I know nothing about them, as I have barely seen any of the TNG episodes, I have never seen any of the others, and hardly any of the movies - my lexicon of TREK is all about STAR TREK the original series, so I can't speak on any of them.

Let me know when you are ready 'Captain Sisko', as I have a real 'doosie' cooked up for you to gnaw on this time LOL!

 

[siskokid888]

OK, Ron, let me have it!

 

[Captain Tracy]

SISKO - You and your Chief Medical Officer are on a mission to secure the mining rights of the rare mineral,Topaline, which has been found in abundance on the planet Cappella IV.

This scarce mineral is of vital importance to the life support system of Federation planetoid colonies. To make matters more difficult, a Klingon agent has preceded you to the Capellan negotiation table; and the Cappellans are emphatic that they will only create a Mining Treaty with one faction only.

During the course of your interactions planet-side, the good Doctor, the very pregnant Eleen - who carries within her, the unborn heir-apparent Teer - and yourself, have escaped Maab's bloddy coup; and have fled into the caves of the surrounding mountains.

However, while being guided by Eleen through the network of small tunnels which will lead your party to the safety of other side of the mountain, a cave-in occurs, trapping Elaan in the mouth of the cave's exit,... although her head and shoulders are on the outside of the mouth of the cave, the rest of her body is completely trapped on your side of the rubble,... and blocking the exit.

While no one - including the unborn infant which Eleen carries - is seriously injured; however, the tunnel has been completely and totally sealed off behind you by hundred of yards of dense rubble.

Additionally, fissures created in the floor of the cave are expelling a deadly volcanic gas, which will completely fill the small tunnel segment in a matter of moments which is occupied by yourself and the Doctor - who are trapped between the collapsed tunnel, and the trapped Elaan, who's head is out of the cave.

In a matter of moments, death will envelope you and the Doctor, unless Eleen can be 'unstuck' from blocking your escape.

Although you have your communicator, the Enterprise (and the transporter with it) have been called away from orbiting the planet in an effort to aid the distressed USS Dierdre - a small freighter, reported under attack by a Klingon vessel,... a crafty ruse by the cunning Klingon, Kras.

You also have your Phaser; however there is too much rubble sealing off the tunnel behind you, as well as that which traps Eleen - which would be far too dangerous and time consuming to consider phasering your way through.

Besides, your Phaser's power-cell only contains enough of a remaining charge for 'one shot'.

Okay CAPTAIN SISKO,... the deadly poison gas is filling the cave,... you only have seconds,... what do you do?

CUE: 'Danger Music'

 

[Gary7]

^ Kobayashi Maru. You've put together a pretty wild and wacky rare scenario there.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

In Stargate Universe, a dying Senator sacrificed his life to save the others, by manually activating the closure of the shuttle doors from inside (it couldn't be done from the outside). If nobody had done this, everyone would have died with the entire ship's atmosphere vented.

Eleen is stuck in the only way out, oxygen is going, and everybody in the tunnel is going to die unless she gets unstuck. The right thing would be to clearly state the facts and ask her kindly to sacrifice herself. She'd be dying anyway, what with massive internal injuries. If she was an upstanding person, she'd say "shoot me". And, the captain would have to do it. If she declined, and remained selfish to not only die but take a few other people with her, the proper thing would be to knock her unconscious, then use the phaser to widen the hole (and kill her).

 

[T'Girl]

I take it that "phasering" Eileen will result in a opening through which Kirk and McCoy can escape? But would Eileen and child die in any event through injuries and/or starvation subsequent to Kirk and McCoy's demise? Or would she clearly have the ability to free herself and child, perhaps after regaining consciousness?

If she and child were doomed to death, I would say disintegrate them both, at least accomplishing the salvation of two of the four people involved in the cave in. However, it would be incumbent upon Kirk and McCoy (as gentlemen) to sacrifice themselves, so as that mother and child could survive, to lead their world to a future of diversity, freedom and democracy.

It would make no sense for all four to die.

 

[Captain Tracy]

GARY7 & T'GIRL - While we wait for SISKO, my ever-delinquent buddy, to re-surface, I'll take a moment to make some clarifications while we wait for his answer as what he will do.

GARY7 - While it is true that Eleen blocks the only way out of the tunnel, however, it is not true that 'oxygen is running out'; what is true is that poisonous volcanic gas is rapidly filling the cave - making what oxygen that remains in the cave totally unbreathable,... which means no one can talk; as you must breath to talk,.. and breathing in the gas means instant death,.. so there is no politely asking Eleen if it is okay to phaser her and her unborn child to death.

However, I will award you with +3 points for 'Officer Courtesy' when murdering innocent pregnant women. LOL!

Also, no one sustained any 'massive internal injuries' as the hypothesis states in paragraph 5: While no one - including the unborn infant which Eleen carries - is seriously injured,... so Eleen would not 'be dying anyway'.

Furthermore, the hypothesis states: there are only seconds remaining before Captain Sisko and his Chief Medical Officer are enveloped by death,... so there is NO TIME to administer a Hypo to her lower body, knock her out, and then try to conduct a mining operation to 'widen the hole around her' with the Phaser - a Phaser which only has ONE SHOT remaining, besides.

Sisko and his Medical Officer would be dead about the same time they determined the hypo took effect,.. and "Fried Eleen over super-heated Rock" probably would be more noxious to breath in than the deadly volcanic gas,... one might assume LOL!

Keep pondering old bean!

T'GIRL - Yes, as the hypothesis states, Eleen blocks the only exit from the cave,.. ergo, remove the 'blockage' and the cave exit becomes unblocked, and therefore 'open'.

All of your suppositions are quite valid and intelligent in there formation, HOWEVER, in these scenarios, there is NO TIME for thought,.. only ACTION,... by answering 'What Do You Do", and not 'What do you 'think'.

Also, all of your 'IF' statements, would by-in-large only answerable AFTER THE FACT of taking immediate and irreversible action first.

+3 bonus points for being 'the deepest thinking two dead officers on the cave floor'. LOL!

 

[siskokid888]

Hell of a scenario, Tracy. IIRC, Eleen and her child were going to be executed by Maab until Kirk and McCoy (and Spock, I think) escape with her. In fact, Maab ends up sacrificing himself in her place at the end. So, if Kirk (or I) and the Doctor die, Eleen and her kid are dead anyway, either from, as previously stated, the situation she is in, or from Maab, after he finds her. To sacrifice my life for someone who is dead anyway is not really a sacrifice, its a waste. I go with Gary7's scenario - try to talk reason to her, render her unconcious, try to get out with out hurting her, but if she dies, so be it. She is dead in any case. Ship commanders get paid to make life or death decisions, and this is one of them. Tough call, but that's what I would do.

 

[Captain Tracy]

SISKO - Please RE-READ both the scenario and the response to GARY7,.. IF YOU TRY TO TALK TO ELAAN, YOU WILL BREATH IN THE GAS AND DIE INSTANTLY. And NO ONE IS SERIOUSLY INJURED, simply trapped in the rubble.

Also, as you know there can be no 'IF''s in your response,.. you must state - as a course of action - only that which you do, with the mere seconds (like 5) that you have remaining before you (where the hell did Kirk, McCoy,... and Spock no less,.. come from?????) and your Chief Medical Officer are 'enveloped by death.

So,.. again, NO SQUIRMING OR HEDGING SISKO,.. or "if, then' nonsense,... please state only, and in clear and simple terms only, the immediate course of ACTION you take.

::INSERT WICKED LAUGHTER :::

"NOW ANSWER CAPTAIN !!!"

 

[siskokid888]

^Very well - the "gotta be done right now" scenario doesn't change my decision. The facts I point out still stand - she dies. Sounds cold, I know, but if I die, she dies anyway. There was a similar situation examined in TNG - Troi is taking a test to become a full commander. In the scenario, the ship is about to be destroyed due to a malfunction. LaForge could save the ship at the cost of his life. Troi doesn't pass the test untill she orders LaForge to repair the ship and sacrifice himself. So sometimes a commander has to make decisions like that, and they are messy. Given your scenario, the choice is clear - she dies.

 

[Captain Tracy]

SISKO - LOL!!! You just can't bring yourself to write the words: 'I Phaser Eleen (and her unborn infant) and the Doctor and I escape.

You imply the act, but you just CAN'T bring yourself to actually type the words. LOL!! - I think a psychologist would have a Field Day examining that! ROFLMAO!

Okay buddy, you can stop your squirming now LOL!

Eleen MUST DIE.

Here is the rational, as I see it anyway:

1. The entire KEY to the thing is THE UNBORN HEIR-APPARENT TEER.

It is ONLY through the birth and survival of this child which grants Eleen power over Maab, as she becomes the acting Teer until such time as her child can rule on his own (of course Maab and his henchmen COULD pull yet another coup,..)

And it is only through Eleen acting in power that You are going to be granted the mineral rights, which allows you to complete your mission - being the sole purpose of your mission.

2. HOWEVER, since Eleen is trapped in the cave entrance, even if you should elect NOT TO KILL HER (and her unborn), She would remain 'Stuck', and If she would live long enough, the baby would be born into a cave filled with deadly gas,.. and the new Teer dies instantly.

3. If Eleen does not give birth, but Maab and the Klingon find her, they will complete the task they set out to do, and most likely be-head her,... and still the unborn child dies.

Of course MANY THINGS COULD HAPPEN AFTER THE FACT, but the only real is answer is to escape the cave by killing Eleen and the child, and attempt to evade Maab and the Klingon long enough for the Enterprise to return and escape - as the mission to acquire the mineral rights is more than likely doomed the moment the unborn child dies.

But SISKO, how is a guy who can't even type the words: 'I PHASER THE TRAPPED PREGNANT WOMAN', going to actually pull the trigger in real life? LOL!!!!

Okay buddy,.. your turn to put me in the 'Hot Seat'.

 

[T'Girl]

2. HOWEVER, since Eleen is trapped in the cave entrance, even if you should elect NOT TO KILL HER (and her unborn), She would remain 'Stuck', and If she would live long enough, the baby would be born into a cave filled with deadly gas,.. and the new Teer dies instantly.

But would she in fact remain "stuck?" From your scenario it doesn't sound like Eileen is being actively crushed by the cave-in, only that she is pinned. Since phasering her, and not the surrounding rock, will create the opening large enough for the egress of Kirk and McCoy, you are saying that only her mid-section is actually pinned. You stipulated that her head is clear, she can breath outside air, and if she were buried down to her ankles, the the two officers wouldn't be able to escape through that size opening subsequent to the (let's use the word) murder.

So only her waist area is pinned, and she is near term in her pregnancy, so is Eileen doomed to die without assistance? No, and this is why. When Eileen's water breaks, she will lose a quart of physical volume, plus she would become "slippery." Next the future Teer would be repositioned by Eileen's muscles prior to his birth, he would "drop." Head down and feet up, moved close to the birth canal. This too would decrease the size of Eileen's waist area.

If (there's that word) the rocks holding Eileen in place are fixed in position, and not actively crushing her, then a good hour before birth she would be able to wiggle free and leave the vicinity of the cave opening. Her freeing herself would also release the poison gas into the air, but it would then immediately be mixed with outside air, and as long as Eileen didn't linger, she would be fine from the poison.

McCoy would have realized just what I told you in a heartbeat, and would have prevented Kirk from phasering Eileen

When you thought up this scenario Captain Tracy, you obviously were not thinking like a woman.

 

[Captain Tracy]

2. HOWEVER, since Eleen is trapped in the cave entrance, even if you should elect NOT TO KILL HER (and her unborn), She would remain 'Stuck', and If she would live long enough, the baby would be born into a cave filled with deadly gas,.. and the new Teer dies instantly.

But would she in fact remain "stuck?" From your scenario it doesn't sound like Eileen is being actively crushed by the cave-in, only that she is pinned. Since phasering her, and not the surrounding rock, will create the opening large enough for the egress of Kirk and McCoy, you are saying that only her mid-section is actually pinned. You stipulated that her head is clear, she can breath outside air, and if she were buried down to her ankles, the the two officers wouldn't be able to escape through that size opening subsequent to the (let's use the word) murder.

So only her waist area is pinned, and she is near term in her pregnancy, so is Eileen doomed to die without assistance? No, and this is why. When Eileen's water breaks, she will lose a quart of physical volume, plus she would become "slippery." Next the future Teer would be repositioned by Eileen's muscles prior to his birth, he would "drop." Head down and feet up, moved close to the birth canal. This too would decrease the size of Eileen's waist area.

If (there's that word) the rocks holding Eileen in place are fixed in position, and not actively crushing her, then a good hour before birth she would be able to wiggle free and leave the vicinity of the cave opening. Her freeing herself would also release the poison gas into the air, but it would then immediately be mixed with outside air, and as long as Eileen didn't linger, she would be fine from the poison.

McCoy would have realized just what I told you in a heartbeat, and would have prevented Kirk from phasering Eileen

When you thought up this scenario Captain Tracy, you obviously were not thinking like a woman.

LOL!!!!!!! Well, I must say, I haven't laughed that hard in quite sometime, thank you T'Girl - you could have been on OJ Simpson's legal 'Dream Team'.

Stuck is Stuck - for purposes of the hypothesis.

However, let us say it is not the rubble which actually entraps Eleen, and prevents any WIGGLING, but as another effect of the cave-in, the structurally sound rocks have SHIFTED POSITION, and of course, this is what actually pins Eleen in place,....

Pinned just under her rather large, full, and hypnotically pendulous swaying breasts, and just above her rather pregnant belly. - Yep, thinking like a 'Guy' - guilty as charged LOL!

Therefore, it matters not if she gives birth to quintuplets,... she remains STUCK, and the cave exit remains BLOCKED.

Eleen is STUCK.

HOWEVER,... IF (yes, there is that word,.. again! LOL!) YOU should like to test out your 'Solution' to the situation,... may I suggest you place an ad on Match.com; and with the aid of the first available suitor - perhaps SISKO might help you out - , and re-create Eleen's impregnation, and wedge yourself in the mouth of a cave (or resonable facsimile there-of), wait through the gestation period of 9 months,.. and test it out,...

Just like on MYTHBUSTERS!!!! LOL!!!!

Stuck is STUCK.

I have to say thank you for making me smile today, you put a lot of thought into your 'retort', and a HUGE smile on my face, thanks!

'still laughing over here'

 

[siskokid888]

^^^ Well, Ron, I would hope it would NEVER be easy to admit to deciding to kill a woman and her unborn child! But you backed up my argument quite nicely. Give me a little time to come up with one for you - I have one in mind - I just need to work out the details.

 

[Captain Tracy]

SISKO - Alright then, I am 'waiting in the chair' Doctor. LOL!

Take your time in working up a dilemma for me. I must admit, I do have an unfair advantage in this regard, as I spend a goodly portion of my day concocting and devising scenarios with which to confound you LOL!!

Some people have their cross-word puzzles, and some have their pet-inventions to occupy their minds with. Me? I have my latest favorite hobby, 'How to make my buddy SISKO twist and squirm'. LOL!!

Okay Pal, 'Standing-By', you may Fire When Ready.

 

[siskokid888]

Ok Ron, here we go - for this scenario, I'm going to go slightly outside the realm of episodic TOS, but you should still be familiar with all the elements -

You are President of the United Federation of Planets. (way to go, Ron!). Starfleet Intelligence comes to you with the following information - the chancellor of the Klingon Empire has died (or been killed) and there are 2 candidates vying to replace him. One of the candidates is named Gorkon. He is not from the warrior caste, but he has an impressive combat record and is well respected in the Empire. He has made overtures to the Federation in regards to making a lasting peace - he doesn't believe the Empire can go on in its war-like state. There is a real opportunity with him in power to end the hostilities between the Klingons and the Federation.

The other candidate is K'reel. He is of the warrior caste, and has violently risen through the ranks. He also comes from a well respected and connected family. He has a 15 year old son. K'reel believes that the Klingon Empire has been humilitated, and he wants to go to war with the Federation to regain Klingon honor. He has vowed to fight to the last man, woman and child if necessary to regain that honor. If he becomes chancellor, he, and/or his son, if anything should happen to K'reel, will go to war in a matter of weeks - and it will be devestaing to the Alpha Quadrant. The Klingon high council, in addition with many of the Klingon people, support K'reel.

Starfleet Intelligence has a plan - they have worked out a way to get an operative close to K'reel and kill him AND his 15 year old son. The son has to die in order to end K'reel's family's claim on the chancellorship. They have worked it out so that K'reel and his son's death will looked to have been accomplished by Gorkon and/ or his supporters, and since this is a norm in Klingon politics, it will not cause major repercussions.

Here is your question, Mr. President - do you ok the operation to murder K'reel and his son, forswearing yourself by interfering in another culture solely to protect Federation interests? True, billions may be saved, but you would be undermining and going against everything the Federation stands for, and everything that you and your office supposedly represent. Or do you let things play out, have K'reel become chancellor, and face a devestating war? Don't forget, there is always a small chance that the plot will be found out, and you will be at war with the Klingons in any case.

Your decision, Mr. President, Starfleet Intelligence only has a short window to accomplish the plan if you decide to ok it.

Have at it!

 

[T'Girl]

It might be relevant to the dicussion to note that by the example of Worf's son Alexander (and the writings of John Ford), 15 year old Klingons are full adults.

")

 

[Captain Tracy]

SISKO!!!!!

Sorry for the long absence, I have been "heavily occupied" on an Amusement and Pleasure Planet located in the Omicron Delta system for quite some time.

However, I recently was kicked-out, or more properly "not invited back"; this, after being discovered as the singular guest who was wearing out their stock of fembots at an alarming rate,.. and was also discovered to be the mysterious guest who was gaining access to the Japanese fighter plane, and making repeated strafing-runs on the "White Rabbit'.

Okay,... first off,.. amazing scenario you cooked up,.. top shelf!

The short answer is simply NO; I could take no part whatsoever in any type of a coup,.. totally against my personal morals and ethics, and what the whole spirit is the UFP is "SUPPOSED" to be about.

Your MOST EXCELLENT scenario hits on the same basic dilemma which STAR TREK FAILED to examine properly in THE ENTERPRISE INCIDENT,... As told, it was a rah-rah-sis-boom-bah,., our ends justify our means, and therefore can be as unethical as our competitors (read: enemy governments) because our nationalist pride says we are the "good guys",... and god guys are allowed to be as slimy as the bad guys, because we are "right".

Love that episode as an adventure, hate the cultural indoctrination message it carries.

So,.. I could not be a party to the scheme - with full understanding of the potential fall-out - and still wear the uniform with my head held high.

If given the option, I would apply whatever influence I could to aid Gorkon in "Selling" his position to the Empire, while trying to get K'reel to "come about", as it were (which I realize is not very likely).

So if it comes down to intergalatic war in either case, perhaps THAT would be the time for the UFP to reconsider their own position, and let the Empire runs its own government, and simply butt-out, keep the Klingons on their side of the zone established by the Organians,.. and on the the CORRECT SIDE of a Phaser (being the emitter-nozzel end),... harsh? perhaps, but that's how I like my TREK.

Good to see you and thanks for the question,... SISKO!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!

 

[1001001]

Resurrecting a thread that's nearly a year old is bad form. If there's something new to discuss, you can create a new thread.

Closing time.