And we should all avoid Tolkien because it supports a monarchy? Narnia because it promotes Christianity? Any book that contains elements we disagree with?
Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"
- Thread starter Yminale
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And we should all avoid Tolkien because it supports a monarchy? Narnia because it promotes Christianity? Any book that contains elements we disagree with?
Whose getting "emotionally riled up"? Seems like a pretty tame discussion to me.
A few people are, but it isn't anyone who doesn't want to see the movie. I've have more heated discussions with friends than this snooze fest.
The idea that Orson Scott Card should have made Ender an adult instead is pretty ludicrous. The whole point would have been lost.
A
Amaris
Guest
You should be a national treasure.
I don't understand what this response has to do with what I posted.
Come on. You can't have missed what he's talking about. It was a direct reference.
Why should I knowingly put money in the pockets of a bigot?
Pass.
Pass.
I don't see why people are getting so upset because some people don't like a book and don't want to see a movie about it. Go see the movie if you want, I don't care. If you don't want to support the author, more power to you. I might check it out if the reviews are good.
I'm only here because Orson Scott Card is a whiny child who wants my money when I'd rather give to something else. If fact, his crybaby antics turn me off to his work. Especially after pushing for all that he has pushed for. I can separate the artist from the art. I enjoy Heinlein and he was a nut. Usually the crazier the author, the better the book. But Card is a whiny little bitch, so fuck him and his movie. If you disagree and want to see the movie, good for you and enjoy yourself. I'd rather go see Pacific Rim and watch robots fight monsters.
I'm only here because Orson Scott Card is a whiny child who wants my money when I'd rather give to something else. If fact, his crybaby antics turn me off to his work. Especially after pushing for all that he has pushed for. I can separate the artist from the art. I enjoy Heinlein and he was a nut. Usually the crazier the author, the better the book. But Card is a whiny little bitch, so fuck him and his movie. If you disagree and want to see the movie, good for you and enjoy yourself. I'd rather go see Pacific Rim and watch robots fight monsters.
How is the morality on stealing his movie through torrents?
Take it easy and keep things squarely focused on the topic of the thread. So far it's been in pretty good shape, considering the sensitivity of the subject. A few folks are veering into more personal territory, but it hasn't become a problem yet.
You go directly to the Pits of Hell.
Awesome Possum, I don't know you, but I've agreed with pretty much everything you've said in this thread.
98% of the time, I have no trouble separating the art from the artist. I may disagree with the politics of Gary Sinise or Kelsey Grammer, but that doesn't stop me from watching their work. I don't care for Dean Cain's politics, either, but I won't give up my Lois & Clark DVDs or skip a Dean Cain Christmas movie on the Hallmark Movie Channel. A friend asked me on Facebook if I was skipping Roman Polanski, but I don't believe that I've seen any of his work, not because he's a rapist but because I haven't been interested. I was indifferent to the Dragon*Con boycott. People are complicated.
What makes Card different, what makes Card part of that 2%, in my opinion, is this.
Having read his work, I expect better of Card.
The first Card work I read was his Foundation story, "The Originist." Then I read the first two Alvin Maker books, then I read the Ender saga as it existed (through Xenocide). Looking back on those works now, they're about outsiders. They're about people who are maligned, marginalized, shunned through no fault of their own because they're not like everyone else. The catharsis and emotional climax in these books (and "The Originist," too) often revolves around the maligned, marginalized, shunned protagonist proving his worth, finding his place, and finding acceptance.
And that's what irritates me about Card's rather virulent hatred for gay rights, because when you read his work, you feel the emotion behind his work, and you expect him to be accepting and tolerant of others and their desire for inclusiveness. Unfortunately, he's anything but on this one issue.
I haven't bought any of Card's work in about fifteen years, but it's actually for reasons of quality and not of politics. In the mid-90s Card had a run of duff books. The Ender saga ended poorly, Treasure Box was terrible, the Homecoming saga was well written but nothing exciting, his return to Alvin Maker was awful. (His last great book, in my opinion, was the Stephen King-esque Lost Boys. The last twenty pages of that book hurt.) I felt like he and I had parted ways anyway when I learned of some of his personal beliefs, which only gave me another reason not to support him.
Like I said, I expect better of Card. His message today was that of a coward who knows he's on the losing side of history, that his side has already lost, and he's trying to save his own skin.
When Card apologizes for actively hurting people in California and across the country as a member of the National Organization of Marriage, when Card apologizes for advocating the violent overthrow of governments that sanction gay marriage, when Card leads the fight to repeal North Carolina's Amendment One -- in other words, when Card actually does something positive to foster tolerance and acceptance rather than meekly asking people to accept that he's an intolerant bigot -- then I might possibly revise my opinion about Card.
But he won't. He's too small a human being to do that.
98% of the time, I have no trouble separating the art from the artist. I may disagree with the politics of Gary Sinise or Kelsey Grammer, but that doesn't stop me from watching their work. I don't care for Dean Cain's politics, either, but I won't give up my Lois & Clark DVDs or skip a Dean Cain Christmas movie on the Hallmark Movie Channel. A friend asked me on Facebook if I was skipping Roman Polanski, but I don't believe that I've seen any of his work, not because he's a rapist but because I haven't been interested. I was indifferent to the Dragon*Con boycott. People are complicated.
What makes Card different, what makes Card part of that 2%, in my opinion, is this.
Having read his work, I expect better of Card.
The first Card work I read was his Foundation story, "The Originist." Then I read the first two Alvin Maker books, then I read the Ender saga as it existed (through Xenocide). Looking back on those works now, they're about outsiders. They're about people who are maligned, marginalized, shunned through no fault of their own because they're not like everyone else. The catharsis and emotional climax in these books (and "The Originist," too) often revolves around the maligned, marginalized, shunned protagonist proving his worth, finding his place, and finding acceptance.
And that's what irritates me about Card's rather virulent hatred for gay rights, because when you read his work, you feel the emotion behind his work, and you expect him to be accepting and tolerant of others and their desire for inclusiveness. Unfortunately, he's anything but on this one issue.
I haven't bought any of Card's work in about fifteen years, but it's actually for reasons of quality and not of politics. In the mid-90s Card had a run of duff books. The Ender saga ended poorly, Treasure Box was terrible, the Homecoming saga was well written but nothing exciting, his return to Alvin Maker was awful. (His last great book, in my opinion, was the Stephen King-esque Lost Boys. The last twenty pages of that book hurt.) I felt like he and I had parted ways anyway when I learned of some of his personal beliefs, which only gave me another reason not to support him.
Like I said, I expect better of Card. His message today was that of a coward who knows he's on the losing side of history, that his side has already lost, and he's trying to save his own skin.
When Card apologizes for actively hurting people in California and across the country as a member of the National Organization of Marriage, when Card apologizes for advocating the violent overthrow of governments that sanction gay marriage, when Card leads the fight to repeal North Carolina's Amendment One -- in other words, when Card actually does something positive to foster tolerance and acceptance rather than meekly asking people to accept that he's an intolerant bigot -- then I might possibly revise my opinion about Card.
But he won't. He's too small a human being to do that.
For those who say you should separate yourself from the disagreement with political views, I generally do, but, this is a guy who advocated locking up and quarantining Gay people for the crime of being Gay. Being Gay, that certainly crosses my line of where I will look for Entertainment
This. He is a board member of an organization that ACTIVELY is trying to stop equal rights. That's the line for me.
I generally could care less about the politics of an individual... but when it moves into activism... It's hard not to think that my money eventually trickles down into that organization.
And besides, the language and the things that he has advocated for go well beyond the pale of conservatism. I would like to think that even conservatives wouldn't want him on their team.
While I've read Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead, and enjoyed them both, I just can't give anymore money to this bigot.
Yes, that's true. He also said it was about people no longer reading books in the future because of the invention of TV. So what?
Bottom line is, owning books was illegal, and possession of them meant you would be arrested and your home would be burned down. What entity wrote and enforced the law? Who employed the "firemen" who burned down the homes and books? The government. That's government censorship, regardless of how it got started with political correctness among the populace.
Bradbury is simply saying that government censorship was not his chief focus when he wrote it. Nuclear war was also not the chief focus of the novel, that doesn't mean it didn't happen in the book.
What were you talking about when you said this in the post I was responding to:
I am reminded of Fahrenheit 451. Books became illegal not because of an evil dictator but because they offended people. Part of living in a democracy means that we are all entitled to our opinions and are free to express them.
Books don't become illegal spontaneously. A government has to enforce that, whether it's the will of the people or not. Why talk about living in a democracy and freedom of expression unless you're talking about the possibility of those rights being taken away by the government?
The bottom line is, you're worrying about something which is not even an issue. His books aren't being banned. His movie isn't being banned. His writings in magazines and blogs aren't being banned. Some people are simply not going to see the movie. That's it. It's a paper tiger issue to drum up fear of something that no one here is asking for, and it's an attempt to mischaracterize the arguments of one's opponents.
Again, who is censoring him? Not going to see his movie is not censoring him. The movie will still be in theaters.
A right no one here is advocating should be taken away. So, congratulations once again on fighting the good fight against the thing no one was asking for.
Whose freedoms are being trampled on or taken away? You just keep repeating this like a mantra. What, do you hope that if you say it enough times it'll suddenly become true and you will have been proven right?
As far as OSC's happiness is concerned, I don't give two shits about the happiness of a bigoted scumbag who advocates the violent overthrow of the government if it legalizes same-sex marriage and who thinks gays should be thrown in prison. Fuck his happiness.
You know, liberals aren't like Beetlejuice or Bloody Mary. They don't suddenly appear if you keep saying "Liberal! Liberal! Liberal!" over and over again like a broken record. You're the only one who's mentioned political ideologies in this thread. Everyone else has just stuck to the issue. Why don't you give it a try?
There's nothing weird about not wanting to support a bigot who has used his money to affect legislation against gay people. It has nothing to do with being upset, like we're delicate flowers who can't handle the idea of a homophobe being out there.
Then what the fuck is all the drama from your side in this thread about, since that is literally all that has been proposed?
One guy did it and was corrected by people on both sides of the issue. BFD. Get over it.
Because that's what made the story interesting, especially for young readers who could relate to Ender and the other kids. To imply that it supports child soldiers in ludicrous. Christopher Nolan doesn't support vigilantism just because he directed Batman movies.
I'm not even sure what your point is here. Are you commenting about it being illegal to use hate speech against gays or to call someone a douche (since that's the only thing in the post you quoted) in Canada?
Either way, neither myself nor Card live in Canada, so their hate speech laws are kind of a moot point here, and I will continue to call him a douche or worse with glee.
Sorry, but the emotionally charged arguments about non-issues have been entirely on your and Jim's side of the discussion.
No one was talking about protesting the film until you brought it up. No one was talking about those protestors screaming epithets at movie goers until you brought it up (you admit to the exaggerated comparison about the WBC above). No one was talking about censorship until you brought it up. No one was talking about hate speech laws until you brought it up. The one and only thing people have been talking about is a boycott of the film by not buying tickets. That's not censorship, that's not infringing on anyone's rights, and it's not a protest in front of the theater (though if they eventually decide to do that, that's their right too). There will simply be fewer people at the theater, period. You guys are completely overreacting and getting defensive about a nothing situation.
People have been perfectly fine despite repeated misrepresentations of their arguments.
And me typing insults about OSC is not shouting insults at a person, by the way, if that's what you're carrying on about. Though I'd gladly call him a bigot to his face if given the opportunity.
It wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was a diagnosed mental illness with severe legal consequences that would see a person committed and electrocuted until they relented.
Orson is not proposing the unthinkable.
He just wants to turn the clock back three decades.
And really, why stop at 3?
Orson is not proposing the unthinkable.
He just wants to turn the clock back three decades.
And really, why stop at 3?
During the whole homophobes should not be allowed to write Superman comics, I followed a link to that group, and then on their site I followed a link to their tax returns.
They play with less than 3 million dollars a year, and only a third of that is earmarked for actual lobbying.
Again, he's doing bad things, but on an incredibly smaller scale than his detractors are giving him credit for... Although his fame and celebrity are probably a more effective tool than the million dollars on the table, which is probably just wasted on a couple direct mail campaign's that go straight in most everyone's rubbish bins.
So, just because 1 million dollars goes towards legislating bigotry, I shouldn't not buy his stuff? A hate organization "only" has three million dollars a year so I should be nicer?
Is that your point?
You're being just mean enough.
For about 5 minutes I thought he was Lex Luthor buying the white house, but it turned out that Orson was only Cluemaster knocking over a bakery. If you want to hate him for how he thinks, that fine, but don't be afraid of his "power" becuase Mr Card has very very little.
For about 5 minutes I thought he was Lex Luthor buying the white house, but it turned out that Orson was only Cluemaster knocking over a bakery. If you want to hate him for how he thinks, that fine, but don't be afraid of his "power" becuase Mr Card has very very little.