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Spoilers Orphan Black Season 4 Discussion

Yeah, this was an intense and sad one. Thank goodness for On Demand cable, though, since I missed it last night. Somehow I just got really distracted last night -- I almost forgot Legends of Tomorrow was on and I completely forgot Orphan Black was on.

Kind of devious how they introduced Evie Cho as a seemingly secondary character, appearing to be just a pretty face (well, stunningly amazingly gorgeous face) serving as a spokesperson for Brightborn. Who knew she'd turn out to be so much more than that? I wonder if "Evie" is short for "Evil."

I think having Cosima be the one who had to witness what happened with Kendall made it hit the hardest, because she's just so nice and caring. And Evie filling her in about Delphine right after was just pouring salt in the wound.

Oh, if only Sarah hadn't been so hasty about destroying the cell sample. But I'm not sure how much good it would've done with all the research wiped. (Seriously, Cosima and Scott, ever heard of backups?)

Poor Art and Felix. They went to all the trouble of setting up a "Scotland Yard inspector" con pitched to what they assumed to be Krystal's level of naivete, and then she rendered it useless by being even dumber than they realized. Although it's hard to believe anyone could be that dumb. Could Krystal be playacting, maybe putting on a long con of her own for some reason?
 
I think having Cosima be the one who had to witness what happened with Kendall made it hit the hardest, because she's just so nice and caring. And Evie filling her in about Delphine right after was just pouring salt in the wound.

Cosima has been having a great season so far. Maybe it is the lack of Delphine, but last year she was kind of this annoying side character. This season, it feels like Season 1 Cosima again and yeah that ending scene was all the more tragic.
 
I think at this point, the only hope for Cosima is if they learn something crucial from Charlotte's condition.

Well, unless Kira turns out to have magic glowy Star-Child (TM) powers and can miraculously heal her with a touch...
 
I'm a little lost here. What were the ultimate goals of the LEDA and CASTOR project? Yes, cloning a human being is an incredible scientific breakthrough, but what are the pratical applications in the Orphan Black universe,
considering that you can clone only two types of human being? And yes, you can use the infertility pathogen of the CASTOR clones as a bioweapon, but that was an unexpected development.

So what. You made a lot of clones. Then?
 
I'm a little lost here. What were the ultimate goals of the LEDA and CASTOR project? Yes, cloning a human being is an incredible scientific breakthrough, but what are the pratical applications in the Orphan Black universe, considering that you can clone only two types of human being?...
So what. You made a lot of clones. Then?

You study their genome, learn why they were succesfully cloned, and learn how to replicate it. As for the applications, it could have a variety of uses. It could be an infertility treatment, or a way to grow replacement organs for transplant, or a way to have control subjects for genetic experimentation, or just in general a way to understand the workings of the genome better so that you can apply that knowledge to things other than cloning. (It seems odd that cloning a whole person would be easier than cloning individual organs, but organs work better in the context of a whole body, so one could argue that it'd be harder to find a way to clone viable organs individually. Of course I'm not proposing cloning whole people to slaughter them for organs -- aside from the obvious immorality, that would be horribly inefficient, like building entire cars just so you could scrap them for individual parts. But what's learned from cloning whole people could be built on and refined to come up with ways to clone just individual organs later on.)
 
Well, the Duncans' cloning project was originally a military operation, so of course the intent was to clone disposable, interchangeable supersoldiers in bulk. Project Leda was split off to be the civilian side of that project, run by the Dyad Institute. As for why Dyad created so many female clones, I suspect it was largely just to see if they could, and to learn about the relative influence of genetic vs. epigenetic and environmental factors on development by studying the different Leda clones throughout their lives and observing how they developed differently. Since they patented the Leda genome, they presumably had a commercial goal in mind for the cloning technology, like perhaps as a way for infertile people to have children. Or perhaps what they learned about genetics and epigenetics from their longitudinal study of the clones could give them insights they could apply to genetic engineering, disease cures, etc.

And now that we know Neolution was secretly pulling the strings all along, it could be just that their goals were ideologically driven. The Neolutionists want to experiment with human genetics just because they can. They want to explore what new kinds of human they can create. Setting so many genetically identical sisters loose into the world, with completely different upbringings and life experiences, and observing how they develop differently is a compelling experiment, and maybe even a work of art, depending on how you look at it.
 
Well, the Duncans' cloning project was originally a military operation, so of course the intent was to clone disposable, interchangeable supersoldiers in bulk.

It doesn't seem very efficient to me because:
  • the clones grow at the same speed of "normal" human beings, so you have to wait at least 17-18 years for your first batch of cloned soldiers.
  • in the Orphan Black universe artificial wombs don't exists, so if you need thousands of soldiers then you need thousands of surrogates mothers.
  • It's obviously more expensive than the training of a normal soldier, because you have to look after them from the birth. I don't know if the term "disposable" applies here.
Or perhaps what they learned about genetics and epigenetics from their longitudinal study of the clones could give them insights they could apply to genetic engineering, disease cures, etc.

It seems plausible, but the problem is that we have not seen anything like that on the show. The only thing they seem to have done in about thirty years is a study on "Nature versus nurture" on the subjects of the LEDA project. Yes, very interesting, but really, all this effort for some sociological project of which you can not even publish the results?

Edit:
@Christopher: I sincerely believe that you have some good theories there. The problem is that none of those who worked on the project LEDA has ever clearly stated its purpose. And I refuse to consider "We harnessed the power of God! BWAWAWAWA!!!" a valid explanation.

And why after four season none of the clones stopped for a moment and wondered "Ok, but why they createad us?"?
 
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It doesn't seem very efficient to me because:
  • the clones grow at the same speed of "normal" human beings, so you have to wait at least 17-18 years for your first batch of cloned soldiers.
  • in the Orphan Black universe artificial wombs don't exists, so if you need thousands of soldiers then you need thousands of surrogates mothers.
  • It's obviously more expensive than the training of a normal soldier, because you have to look after them from the birth. I don't know if the term "disposable" applies here.

I'm not talking about Jem'Hadar-style quick-cloning, of course, because that would be fantasy. But that's not the only advantage of cloned soldiers, in the minds of the powerful. The people in charge have always wanted their soldiers to be identical, interchangeable, subhuman pawns that they could throw away in droves. Since clones are artificially created, the military leaders in charge of Castor probably hoped they could get the clones defined as nonhuman and as military property, so they'd be free to use them as a slave race. And if you can clone a whole breed of identical soldiers, then as the science improves, you'd gain the ability to clone them with whatever genetic traits you desired -- greater strength and endurance, lower intelligence and empathy and free will, etc.

And no, it's not efficient yet, but this is just the first attempt. Obviously the first experimental version of a process is going to be a lot more cumbersome, inefficient, and expensive than the later, refined version of the technology, but you'll never get to the later, refined version if you don't start out with the clumsier prototype.

It seems plausible, but the problem is that we have not seen anything like that on the show. The only thing they seem to have done in about thirty years is a study on "Nature versus nurture" on the subjects of the LEDA project. Yes, very interesting, but really, all this effort for some sociological project of which you can not even publish the results?

Thirty years isn't that much when you're studying human development or biological evolution. If a phenomenon unfolds over the course of generations or centuries, then it's only natural for science to spend generations studying it. We never would've gained the scientific understanding we have today if all scientists had been so impatient that they didn't even bother to study things that would take generations to understand fully. Science isn't about instant gratification, it's about posterity. That's why we keep researching a cure for cancer even though it probably won't come in our lifetimes. That's why we sent a probe to Pluto even though it could be hundreds of years before a human being visits there.


Edit:
@Christopher: I sincerely believe that you have some good theories. The problem is that none of those who worked on the project LEDA has ever clearly stated its purpose. And I refuse to consider "We harnessed the power of God! BWAWAWAWA!!!" a valid explanation.

Well, that was pretty much explicitly Henrik Johanssen's motivation -- he saw genetic engineering as a way of serving God's plan. So don't knock it. Not everyone is a rational actor. The ability to clone humans would be seen by many groups as a symbol of unprecedented power. That symbolic power alone might be seen as playing into their ideological goals, as with the Neolutionists, or serving their wish for control, as with the military, or profit, as with Dyad. We've seen plenty of real-life evidence of people having strongly emotional negative reactions toward the idea of cloning or genetically engineering humans (as also seen in-story with the Proletheans other than Henrik's sect), so it stands to reason there would be those who would react just as irrationally in favor of using cloning, just for the symbolic power it gave them over human life.

Even limiting it to rational motivations, cloning is a powerful tool for studying genetics. One of the most important things in science is repeatability. You need to be able to conduct the same experiment over and over again with consistent parameters so that you can change only the variable you want and be sure that every other variable is unchanged. That's why scientists in real life used cloned lab mice and other experimental animals to ensure genetic consistency. That's why the "immortal" HeLa line of cultured human cells from a single donor has been so invaluable to medical science for decades, despite the ethical problems with it being taken from the donor without her consent. (So there's actually a real-world precedent of sorts for Project Leda and its ethical quandaries.) The Leda and Castor clones could be valuable as lab rats for all sorts of unethical medical experiments, precisely because those experiments would be repeatable.

Didn't Ethan Duncan explain that his original goal behind the project was finding a way to help infertile couples conceive? To give himself and Susan the child they couldn't have themselves? So we do have an idea of why the experiment was begun, I think. It's just been co-opted for various other ends, because it's such a major breakthrough that many different groups see great possibilities in it.


And why after four season none of the clones stopped for a moment and wondered "Ok, but why they createad us?"?

Are you kidding? That's been the driving question of the whole series. What are we, who did this to us, what do they want from us? Sarah has spent four seasons seeking the answers to those very questions, and each answer has raised even deeper and darker questions. Surely you don't expect all the answers to have been revealed yet.
 

You almost convinced me. Let me think about it :)

Are you kidding? That's been the driving question of the whole series. What are we, who did this to us, what do they want from us? Sarah has spent four seasons seeking the answers to those very questions, and each answer has raised even deeper and darker questions. Surely you don't expect all the answers to have been revealed yet.

I am afraid that I did not make myself clear. :) Obviously the clones have tried to find out as much as possible about their origins. But honestly I do not remember a scene with one of them that ask people involved in the project: "But what is the purpose of the LEDA project? Why did you create us?"

They seemed to me only interested in:

a) looking for a cure for the sick clones.
b) trying to run away from those who pursue them.
 
But honestly I do not remember a scene with one of them that ask people involved in the project: "But what is the purpose of the LEDA project? Why did you create us?"

They seemed to me only interested in:

a) looking for a cure for the sick clones.
b) trying to run away from those who pursue them.

Well, that seems like a reasonable set of priorities. They can get to the existential questions after they make sure they don't die or get enslaved.

And as I said, I think Ethan did already explain the original purpose of the project as being about fertility treatments.
 
I'm finally caught up again. It's weird, this season I don't feel as compelled to watch it (like it's not appointment viewing for me like it's been in the past) and yet each time I watch an episode I find it so compelling I can't wait for the next.

This is a story that I'm glad I've been following from the beginning, and I can't wait to see where this season goes, I'm not sure what they are going to do now that Kendall is gone, but I'm sure they'll find a way.

I got a question, I know this has been talked about before, but has there been any confirmation on whether Season 5 is the final season?
 
There was a story about a year ago stating they meant to do 5 seasons, but that the possibility of a movie or mini-series wasn't out of the question if they had a story that needed telling.

Now it seems the main concern among fans are the lower ratings the show is getting on Thursdays and the chance (albeit slim) that the show won't get a 5th season.
 
Hell, at this point, I'm mostly watching to see Tatiana do her thing. Yeah, yeah, the story's great, yadda yadda. But what acting magic will Tat pull out of her hat this week?
 
Hell, at this point, I'm mostly watching to see Tatiana do her thing. Yeah, yeah, the story's great, yadda yadda. But what acting magic will Tat pull out of her hat this week?

I just rented the movie Picture Day purely because of Tatiana Maslany. That, and it came highly recommended from those who have seen it.

I'm still thinking about the final scene last week. Tatiana as Cosima was amazing and that pulled on the heartstrings. The writer came out this week in a blog post and pretty much said her acting was so raw and real that they didn't need to do a second take. Everyone was absolutely in awe when it came to that scene. I think I've decided no matter what kind of story they end up having, and yeah there's some of it that is convoluted and if picked a part can't be put up to scrutiny (Even though I'm loving this story and the tightness of this season so far), this show is all about Tatiana Maslany. The other cast is awesome too, but this show allowed me to discover her, to love her work, to find out more about her, and now I'm seeking out movies and other things (Other than Gingersnaps II) that she is associated with. It's amazing what kind of talent she has.
 
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