Original Enterprise Systems Diagrams

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by uniderth, Nov 9, 2019.

  1. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    From That Which Survives, maybe the runaway condition is with excess warp plasma production in Reactor 3. First, the antimatter fuel input controls were fused wide open into Reactor 3, and all other bypass controls were fused shut. Too much warp plasma will blow up the M/MA reactor(s) and then breech all the antimatter systems in the nacelles in the explosion causing the ship to blow up like a sun. Pulling the plug on the dilithium crystals wouldn't work because they needed to burn off the antimatter in Reactor 3. With the sabotage to the bypass controls, the only way to counteract the condition, is to burn off the excess warp plasma is with antimatter in the engines (Reactors 1 and 2), hence the runaway speeds. Eventually, even this countermeasure will fail and blow up the ship. Scott cuts off the antimatter stream going into Reactor 3 choking it off to save the ship. :techman: Maintenance would need to replace the antimatter input valve/controls, and with a little care to avoid the need for the bypass systems, the ship can get underway, again.
     
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  2. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    I'm could probably buy in on having the matter stored in the engineering hull. There are references to "matter-antimatter pods/nacelles" IIRC. But this could be a description of the reaction rather than the storage. I believe most of the references are to "anti-matter pods". meaning anti-matter should be their main function anyway.

    Sounds good to me.

    I'm still not sure the function of the pipe structure. I want to re-watch some episodes so i can view Scotty's reaction to the pipe structure in different circumstances. But you're explanation makes sense. It also would make sense that perhaps the "hot matter"/plasma from reactor 3 is better suited for use in an EPS system that straight warp plasma from reactors 1 and 2.

    Having said that, though, I'm not convinced the Enterprise utilized EPS systems. For me this ties back into the dilithium crystals. What was their function an how did they work? Most references seem to use them like super powerful batteries.

    However, we know from "Elaan of Troyius" that the warp drive can't function without them. That's the only real thorn in the side for the "they're just batteries" theory. What this means is that either, the dilithium crystals provide power for some function of the warp drive that can't be supplied through batteries; or they are an element in the warp drive.

    To be honest, the latter makes more sense as much as I dislike it. However, I can only buy into this provided that this doesn't take away from their primary function as super powerful batteries. Which is also why I can't really buy into the EPS power grid. Because then the warp drive becomes the heart of ships power instead of the dilithium.


    Yes, I think this is a spot on analysis. I think this is on the right track to figuring out the explosive peril of "That Which Survives". Considering the only condition that will not result in the ship exploding is having Scotty in the crawl way and then jettisoning that section. Otherwise they could have just jettisoned the section without Scotty inside and been safe.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  3. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Warp according to aridas. Influenced by TOS canon but also Alcubierre and others:

    1) Matter and antimatter stores at each reactor with at least three reactors per dialog, and at least one of the reactors in each nacelle, and one powering the impulse drive. So really, more likely at least FOUR reactors, because we know reactor three is near main engineering.

    2) Matter collection in each nacelle and behind the dish - the three places where gravity is manipulating spacetime, matter, and energy. And matter storage by hyper densification possibly to a degenerate state - hence the apparent incompatibility of a 190,000 MT mass per TMoST and other sources, and a “million metric ton” mass per script

    3) Either stored antimatter in a hyperdense state, or the ability to transform matter into antimatter.

    4) Matter and antimatter fuel reactors that produce plasma or energy to power... what? The coils in a nacelle need negative energy to inflate warped space and prevent its collapse on the ship. So the product of that reaction is either antigravitational negative energy or positive energy that can power something else that creates negative energy. Negative energy is per dialog too, btw.

    5) The question then is, what about dilithium? If it is a crystal, as it is repeatedly said to be, it could be refracting the antigravitational negative energy to the kind of beam or ribbon needed in those coils.

    6) The other thing that is needed is positive energy to create some kind of hypergravity source at the front of each nacelle- to create the warp. And at the back of the nacelle, to close the warp. Hypergravity fore and aft to stretch spacetime, antigravity in the middle to inflate the warp bubble.
     
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  4. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    That's a lot of technobabble. :whistle: Matter/Antimatter storage via hyper densification sounds cool. I too agree that the warp engines generate hypergravity and antigravity to warp space around the ship. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around negative energy, but why not, it's Star Trek.

    Perhaps the forth reactor cannot not be used for warp power by itself, rather it can only be use in series (not in parallel) with the third reactor, but the third reactor can work independently for warp drive without the forth one. Kirk did say he needs four dilithium crystals for full power; one for each reactor?
     
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  5. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    This is probably my final version, revised for antimatter regen. in both nacelles, etc.
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Negative energy is a real thing, Henoch. I will not belabor this art forum thread with further technobabble but look it up. It is experimentally verified as far back as... the late 1940s iirc. By a Dutch physicist named Hendrik Casimir.

    Alcubierre relies on negative energy to inflate the warp bubble in his theory, and others in the theories that built upon his.
     
  7. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I’d suggest eight reactors - two in each nacelle, one for each impulse engine, one for saucer habitation, and one for secondary hull habitation.

    That matches the number of reactors onboard CVAN-65- the 1960s carrier Enterprise.
     
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  8. Professor Moriarty

    Professor Moriarty Nice Admiral Premium Member

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    But... but... where are the H-279 elements? And the G-95 systems?! ;)

    (Looks sweet!) :beer:
     
  9. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    Waaaay back when I had my Amiga 500 and 2000, there was an art program that had color cycling, and even had one single color that performed an animated rainbow color-shift. You cold do a single-frame still image system diagram that could have animated flow lines, and a glowy reactor. 'Twas cool.
     
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  10. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    Ok another update. I actually went whole hog on remaking this diagram. The discussion here has been a great way of tossing around ideas about this system. I still haven't figured out how the pipe chamber fits into all this yet. But I'll get there eventually.

    [​IMG]

    Basic overview: Matter mixes with a small amount of anti-matter in the reaction chamber of the matter/anti-matter integrator. This creates a matter-plasma. The output of this integrator proportionally drives the reactions or reactors 1 and 2. If there is an excess of anti-matter this would cause reactors 1 and 2 to explode. The Emergency Overload Bypass can prevent this.

    If everything is going well the matter-plasma is injected into the dilithium crystals in the Dilithium Crystal Converter Assembly. This has nothing to do with warp drive, but unlocks the power in the dilithium crystals to power the ship. Because this reactions has taken some of the energy away from the matter-plasma, some additional anti-matter is injected into the plasma in the Premix Integrators to boost its energy level back up.

    After this the matter-plasma is injected into the main reactors in each nacelle. If anti-matter was injected at this point with the reactors in a cold state the reaction would be uncontrolled and explode. So before injecting anti-matter the reactors have to be warmed up by injecting circulating the matter-plasma for at least 30 minutes. Once the reactors are warmed up, anti-matter can be injected and the reactors will run normally. Reactors 1 and 2 create the warp plasma the drives the warp engine. Any residual anti-matter left over after being processed through the warp engine is extracted and fed into the anti-matter regeneration system for return to the anti-matter storage tank.

    Additional thoughts:
    The dilithium crystals contain an immense amount of power, but that power can only be accessed by hitting the crystals with a significant enough energy source. A way to think of it would be like a transistor. Except unlike a transistor, instead of passing current through proportional to input current, the crystals release stored energy proportional to input energy.

    An underlying concept behind this is that you can't just mix matter and anti-matter straight or things go BOOM. So this system seems to rely on mixing small quantities until you get bigger controlled reactions.

    Now I need to rewatch the series with this system in mind and see if it fits.


    Interesting idea. My biggest concern is that in "Catspaw" DeSalle orders maximum ship power. To accomplish this he uses impulse power at full, then later orders reactors 1, 2, and 3.

    This would indicate that there are three reactors, plus an unspecified number of impulse reactors (if any).

    Knowing me I'll figure them out eventually. Haha
     
  11. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A bit late to this party - but what a great discussion so far! :beer:

    This subject has been discussed many times on the board over the years and the ideas floated on this thread have added a lot to the conversation, especially as other properties (such as TAS) are now being more widely included.
    The notion of "hot plasma" being a required component of the warp engines is a great explanation of the tech talk in The Naked Time. As for the implosion stuff? Well, Spock does mention a "theoretical relationship between time and antimatter" - perhaps if you bombard antimatter with tachyons it reacts with cold plasma slightly out of temporal phase, safely funnelling away the worst of the uncontrolled explosion into a past time that never was?
    Or, as Kirk much more succinctly puts it; "balance the engines into a controlled implosion" :whistle:

    This I like because it helps explain the presence of the multiple tube structures on the ship. There is little doubt that that there are (at least) two Engine Control rooms on the Enterprise but the duplication of the tube structures as well makes little sense if they are solely a part of the warp drive (as suggested on many cutaways). Explaining the tube structure as a key part of converting the raw output of the reactor(s) into a form of energy compatible with ship systems makes a lot of sense though. Also, having the Impulse Engines also making regular use of the same raw power tallies nicely with how much they struggle when main power goes down, not to mention the synchronicity of the exact same engineering system in the TMP refit.

    Energy conversion is also the role that I see dilithium crystals playing in the process, but they do it far more quickly and efficiently than the tube structure, especially for those high energy system essential for FTL travel such as deflectors, inertial dampeners and structural integrity fields. This is what I think happened in Mudd's Women and Elaan Of Troyius - the ship could technically engage the warp drive but without dilithium to harness power for those other systems it would literally be suicide. In both those episodes the usual backup option (a bypass through the converter assembly) was out of action too. I assume this is also the problem in The Paradise Syndrome when the tube area goes dark - without a power source for those key FTL systems, the Enterprise is stuck gliding along on backup Impulse Power only.

    Finally, the non-central role of the dilithium crystals is why they can be popped out and inspected by Scotty without apparent disruption of ship systems - the converter assembly simply takes the load for a short time.


    THE PODS
    From Metamorphosis:
    I know it's already been fairly well established that the nacelles are also referred to as "pods" in TOS, but this example further supports that notion since Kirk would hardly be talking about fuel tanks in a conversation about the navigation systems - they need to steer out of the way, pronto! :biggrin:

    Something that not been touched on yet (I think) is what is being referred to in That Which Survives as regards jettisoning the "pod" which will save the ship and doom Scotty. If the "pod" in question is just a section of the engineering hull it would have to include both the entire antimatter supply and the integrator - it's no good just ejecting the small tube Scotty is in without sealing the antimatter flow or it would continue pumping antimatter into the vessel and BOOM!!!

    However, if we take all the previous nomenclature in TOS to its natural conclusion then jettisoning a "pod" would equate to ejecting one of the nacelles. It would be a first for Trek but is an idea I've been toying with for a few years now. It would also explain why they didn't just do it in the first place, since the loss of a nacelle is a major handicap for the vessel and would certainly doom Kirk and the landing as the Enterprise would never reach them in time.

    Alternatively, taking the "ejecting nacelle" theory a stage further; could the entire secondary hull have been jettisoned? An early outline of TWS does mention this very scenario, as detailed in another thread by alchemist:
    The matter-antimatter control is inoperative; it has been inexplicably and totally destroyed. Scott can fix it, if he begins now... but he might not have enough time. The area where he must work is tight and cramped -- room for just one man. Scott scrambles in and gets to work. The uncontrolled matter-antimatter mixture that provides warp power is almost out of control and will explode in ten minutes -- more or less. At this point, it's impossible to tell -- and just one man can do the job: Scott. Kirk clears the entire "disposable" warp nacelle area, moving all personnel into the saucer section. If they must jettison the nacelles, it is understood by both Scott and Kirk that Scott might not have the time to get out before the thing blows.
    Interestingly, the first draft of the script mirrors my own theory pretty closely! I guess there are no new ideas under the sun ;)
    INT. CRAWLWAY - CLOSE - SCOTT
    SCOTT
    All right, Mr. Spock, I'm now opening the access panel to the magnetic flow valve itself. Keep your eye on the dial. If there's a jump in magnetic flow you must jettison me and the entire matter-antimatter nacelle immediately. It will blow in two seconds after the rupture of the magnetic field.

    Knowing the way that script revisions tend to tighten things up (and how often they talk about jettisoning the mcguffin) it's hardly surprising that "entire matter-antimatter nacelle" got shortened to "pod". This is one instance where a little more tech-talk should have survived into the final script IMO
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
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  12. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    I can buy it. Dilithium Crystals are not necessary in "conditioning" the M/AM fuels or reaction(s), but suck off the M/AM reaction to generate energy needed for all the associated high energy equipment in the warp engines and keeping the ship in one piece while using the warp systems.
    I don't recall Scotty popping open the Dilithium Crystals while the ship was at warp in Season Three; only while off-line during Elaan of Troyius. The Crystals were coming and going during the Alternative Factor, but again, the ship was in orbit with warp off-line. In The Paradise Syndrome, when Scott pops open the Crystal tray, the ship is not at warp and he was preparing the ship for full power deflector beam and phasers, but he closed the tray before they started using those systems. I guess the power systems could be at idle or just in a pre-heated condition when the tray was opened, but they certainly were not moving at warp speed or even running the M/AM reactor.
     
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  13. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Enterprise was at normal Impulse Power during most of the episode, but that would still have required a feed of main power (as detailed in your proposition). The fact that Kryton was able to open up the dilithium chamber and sabotage the main engines without setting off a whole host of alerts as the Impulse Engines switched to emergency power strongly supports the notion that dilithium is NOT involved in the M/AM reaction. Of course, he was being especially sneaky and may have found a way to bypass those alert systems but that's a lot to expect from one man working in an open room on a short timescale. I'm frankly impressed he did as much as he did! :biggrin:

    Since this was a planned crystal extraction, I think we can assume that the Enterprise made do with batteries or a bypass circuit for most of the episode. No phasers or high energy systems were used until the end of the story, at which point they had retrieved the dilithium crystals anyway.

    I just rewatched those scenes and indeed my recall of the order of those events was a little mixed up! :whistle:
    However, even though the ship was not at warp the main reactor was indeed running when Scott popped out the crystal, as Chekov immediately reported that power dropped. Perhaps they were precharging the tractor beam capacitors in order to maximise their output against the asteroid?

    When the big tube structure eventually goes dark Scotty later reports this as "star drive completely burned out". This is consistent with the notion that the tube structure and dilithium crystals are an important part of the FTL systems but not a fundamental part of all M/AM reactors - I say this because they have enough impulse power for at least the next 60 days. Compare this to other episodes where Impulse fuel is exhausted in 7 hours (Doomsday Machine, a combat situation) or 14 hours (Mudd's Women, flight only). Is it possible that the nacelles' mass reduction field generators survived intact, thus extending the usage time of the emergency Impulse Engine fuel? It might also mean that the nacelles' FTL machinery is technically viable, although without Inertial Dampeners and a Structural Integrity Field you really wouldn't want to try it! :devil:
    This scenario might well be what happened in WNMHGB as well.
     
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  14. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    Nice rebuttals, above. Their situation in The Paradise Syndrome may have been much worse than thought.
    SCOTT: The only thing we have left is impulse power...
    SPOCK: Mister Chekov, resume heading eight eight three mark four one.
    MCCOY: Back to that planet? Without warp speed, it'll take months, Spock.
    SPOCK: Exactly fifty nine point two two three days, Doctor, and that asteroid will be four hours behind us all the way.​
    Yikes, how fast is the asteroid, how slow is impulse and how far out are they? It sounds like any mass reduction generators went out with the burned out star drive, rather Spock gave an order back to the planet (probably needed an impulse burn to set up the course), then we see the Enterprise drifting (?) in front of the asteroid for the next two months. It appears that the ship is on energy conservation mode, i.e. don't burn up your fuel maneuvering. The ship had enough left in her to achieve orbit and escape orbit before the impact. After that? She drifts awaiting a tow to a repair base (I assume Spock phoned home and requested a tow when first crippled, so, maybe they won't have to wait too long. Strange that Starfleet couldn't send any relief ship inside of two months...strange. I guess there aren't many starships, after all. ;))

    Speed calculations (Oh Yes!):
    At the speed of light, 59.223 days yields a distance of up to 10,261 AU (or only 0.16 Light Years). Even at 1/10 light speed (c), they could travel 1000 AUs. The fastest known comet/meteor is at 150,000 MPH or a slow 0.0002 c which would travel only 2.3 AUs in our example.
    • The Oort cloud is an area of space comprising a spherical cloud of comets which lies between 50,000 and 200,000 AU from the Sun.
    • The distance of Neptune to the Sun is about 30 AUs.
    • The distance of Mars to the Sun is about 1.5 AUs.
    • The distance of our Asteroid Belt to the Sun is about 2.8 AUs.
    Theories: Oort Cloud range is too far, so, is not an option since light speed is needed at that range. Neptune range is a possibility, but the asteroid would need to be moving at least 10 times faster than any known asteroid in our solar system, so, this is not an option. I assume that the Enterprise under Impulse Drive can attain speeds of at least 1/4 c, so, she could be capable of zipping thought any solar system in about 17 hours, and she can easily travel 2.3 AUs in about one hour! One hour on full impulse should be easy based on the other examples of 7 and 14 hours. The Enterprise must be extremely crippled and near empty on impulse fuel. Depending on what side of the Sun you are on compared to the planet, both the Mars and Asteroid Belt ranges are both likely if they are drifting at an asteroid-type speed. YMMV :).
     
  15. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    Great maths. But my concern is that no thrust or power is necessary to travel with the asteroid. Just provide and initial thrust and you're done. If impulse engines were working, of even thrusters they could manage to pull out ahead of the asteroid and get to the planet faster.

    Infact the idea of "impulse speed" speed doesn't make sense, because you don't need power to maintain speed in space.
     
  16. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    But they be slow is my main point. We all believe impulse to be much faster than indicated by this episode. Things we expect from impulse drive: Thrust accelerate up to a fraction of c (1/4 to 1/2), coast along, thrust maneuver to avoid asteroids and aim for planets, thrust de-accelerate to insert into orbit, thrust to fine tune orbit, thrust for station keeping above a stationary point on the planet, thrust to break out of orbits, etc. For some reason, the Enterprise does not perform the very first step, i.e. thrust accelerate up to a fraction of c, rather, it limps along at 0.0002 c for some reason. Again, what is going on? :wtf:

    I image if the structural integrity field or inertial dampers are out, too, then they can't push the ship with any acceleration conditions beyond the weakest ones. :shrug:
     
  17. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    That's what's odd. Is that imuple engines operate more like the engine of a car. Where you need to have the engine running in order to maintain a certain speed. Your speed is then limited by the attributes of your engine.

    But for an engine in space the speed would only be limited by its fuel supply. Meaning that by the time you make it to 1/2 c you've expended your fuel supply and can't accelerate anymore.

    If impulse engines act like rockets then they should be rated by "max speed". There would be no such things like "1/4 impulse speed".

    I guess that means impulse engines don't operate by providing thrust.

    That's kind of scary because if your impulse engines go down your dead in the water with zero momentum. Say your impulse engines do down while orbiting a planet. With no momentum you'd immediately drop to a dead stop and start falling.

    I'm of the opinion that a warp field wouldn't require any inertial dampers. Because you're not actually moving the ship relative to the local space time. You're moving spacetime relative to itself.
     
  18. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    But there is:
    I guess we should treat them like propellers in resistant media (like air, water or even TV :rommie:).
    Like in Court Martial?
    How exciting! :eek:
     
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  19. Professor Moriarty

    Professor Moriarty Nice Admiral Premium Member

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    Re “Court Martial”, I think the only reasonable explanation is that “standard orbit” isn’t really an “orbit” at all; the Enterprise was merely hovering over the planet where Starbase 7 is located. Perhaps the field effect of whatever the impulse engines generate lingers for a while even after they’re powered down (explaining the “momentum” aside). When the lingering after effects of the now-quiescent engines evaporated, the ship plunged like a rock.

    Let’s be real for a sec: TOS played fast and loose with basic concepts of physics, even more than the current record holder on CBSAA ;) Arguably some of those concepts simply hadn’t been discovered or formulated 50+ years ago, but sometimes phenomena that were fairly well-understood at the time (e.g., orbital mechanics) were simply ignored in favor of telling a good story. “How warp drive and impulse engines work” falls into that broad category—especially the later Treknology, which even to this day is only vaguely defined in onscreen canon.

    That leaves us fans to fill in the gaps with speculation like mine or fascinatingly detailed diagrams like these. And as far as I’m concerned, that’s the real beauty and magic of Star Trek!
     
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  20. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    I think they were hovering over a 7-Eleven...:whistle: