Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

[Tiberius]

Yeah but it doesn't make sense to me. If a race has become devoid of negative attributes, how could they be so cruel as to leave Armus alone like that to suffer for all eternity? Especially if it's someone they just happened to come across. That's even worse, because that would imply Armus wasn't as evil before as when they left him. I understand that they would still have the negative attributes before they hypothetically met this Armus fellow, but once they rid themselves of their negativity and evil, it would seem quite cruel for them to just leave him there suffering and not try and fix the situation, or fix him somehow.

That's assuming it was intentional. If they just cast their negativity aside, it could be drawn to Armus telepathically just like the connection between Odo and Sisko, Dax and Garak in Things Past.

The history of armus only makes sense if the people who left him did so either before he came into consciousness, or before they were aware of his consciousness. That way, they are completely unaware of the suffering they have caused and their goodness is still intact. If they met some being, and turned him into an evil pile of sludge, and left him there to suffer, that goes against the whole idea of them having no evil within them. They would be total assholes, regardless of what kind of person armus was before they met him.

When Odo was first discovered, Dr Mora didn't know he was alive. Something similar could have happened.

 

[Timo]

If they met some being, and turned him into an evil pile of sludge, and left him there to suffer, that goes against the whole idea of them having no evil within them.

Evil is always arbitrary, so we aren't in any position to define "no evil" for these entities. Moreover, evil is always relative, and the suffering imposed on Armus would be no more evil than the suffering imposed on a convict by the judge who lawfully put him in jail, or by the witness who told the truth about his crime.

If there indeed was any suffering there, that is. Armus on his own private planet seemed to be having great fun with his victims. Being bored between victims is something he might feel miffed about, but it's also something he would blatantly lie about to anybody bothering to listen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr_Homn]

If they met some being, and turned him into an evil pile of sludge, and left him there to suffer, that goes against the whole idea of them having no evil within them.

Evil is always arbitrary, so we aren't in any position to define "no evil" for these entities. Moreover, evil is always relative, and the suffering imposed on Armus would be no more evil than the suffering imposed on a convict by the judge who lawfully put him in jail, or by the witness who told the truth about his crime.

If there indeed was any suffering there, that is. Armus on his own private planet seemed to be having great fun with his victims. Being bored between victims is something he might feel miffed about, but it's also something he would blatantly lie about to anybody bothering to listen.

Timo Saloniemi

It was extremely obvious that he was suffering on that planet, alone, with nothing but his own festering hate to accompany him, whether he would admit it or not. Hence the screaming in torturous agony when Picard left him. A victim now and then between the eons wouldn't change that. Any race that would leave any being there willingly as a punishment would be considered cruel and unusual.

It's just utterly obvious he is not a founder when you look at all the facts.

-Gamma quadrant and Vagra II are seperated by an extreme distance. Founders extremely, extraordinarily unlikely to be from Vagra II
-Armus's description of his creators sounds like nothing remotely close to the Founders.
-Founders and other changelings like Odo or Laas have obvious negative qualities to their personalities. Insecurity, hatred, capable of orchestrating massive attacks on civilians, prejudice, violence, anger, etc.
-Armus has telekenetic powers that the Founders lack.
-Armus shows no ability to shape shift beyond a pool and a pile of sludge.
-Armus was capable of generating, around itself, an intense undefined energy field. With this energy field, it was capable of blocking sensors, communications, and transporters without the aid of any scientific equipment. The Founders simply could not do anything like this.

When you start saying things like "well let's not take that literally" or "poetic justice" or "Well maybe racism isn't that evil" (in the star trek universe for pete's sake) to excuse obvious contradictions with the theory, then it's a bad theory.

 

[R. Star]

Really Armus saying he was created from the hatred of superior beings is enough to nix this one.... the Founders were still chalk full of hate up until the last episode of DS9.

 

[Mr_Homn]

Really Armus saying he was created from the hatred of superior beings is enough to nix this one.... the Founders were still chalk full of hate up until the last episode of DS9.

I agree.

Edit- I was going to go into more detail but I think my position has already been clearly stated.

 

[Captain McBain]

http://mimg.ugo.com/201011/132077/cuts/the-metrons_528_poster.jpg[/IMG]

In DS9, there is mention of a "metron consortium"... according to "Star Trek Star Charts" the metron consortium is in the beta quadrant. I can't find any information as to what quadrant Vagra II is in, though. Just that it's in the Zed Lapis sector

I guess Vagra II's quadrant would be irrelevent, though, since the original inhabitants obviously don't live on Vagra II anymore.

The Metrons were hardly angelic...they put Kirk and the Gorn captain on a planet to fight to the death. Communication between each being's respective ship was not allowed, etc.

The Organians are probably the 'nicest' race in all of Star Trek, but it surely wouldn't be them, either. It's probably a race we never saw on screen, kind of like the first species assimilated by the Borg.

 

[NrobbieC]

Maybe this is how Armus was created

 

[Mr_Homn]

http://mimg.ugo.com/201011/132077/cuts/the-metrons_528_poster.jpg[/IMG]

In DS9, there is mention of a "metron consortium"... according to "Star Trek Star Charts" the metron consortium is in the beta quadrant. I can't find any information as to what quadrant Vagra II is in, though. Just that it's in the Zed Lapis sector

I guess Vagra II's quadrant would be irrelevent, though, since the original inhabitants obviously don't live on Vagra II anymore.

The Metrons were hardly angelic...they put Kirk and the Gorn captain on a planet to fight to the death. Communication between each being's respective ship was not allowed, etc.

The Organians are probably the 'nicest' race in all of Star Trek, but it surely wouldn't be them, either. It's probably a race we never saw on screen, kind of like the first species assimilated by the Borg.

Oh I agree, and I prefer it to be a race we never saw on screen anyway, because it makes the universe a bigger place. Not everything has to be explained. I just wanted to show that there are other races that would make way more sense than the founders. You're right that Organians would have been an even better example. They are clearly total pacifists, and they are very powerful, and their true form could be described as dazzling beauty.

 

[JRoss]

By saying that "the Founders hate humans so they can't have shed all their evil" you are discounting the fact that the Founders may not have viewed that as evil.

 

[R. Star]

It wasn't even just humans. It was all humanoids which covers the vast majority of all sentient life in the Trekverse. They can put whatever labels they want on it to justify it to themselves, but there's no getting around the fact they were morally lacking... not because they -had- the phobias of the solids but because they sought to control and dominate them through the Dominion.

Besides... that light thing Armus killed Yar with. The Founders never displayed abilities like that, or those to absorb phaser fire. Mirror Odo blew up quite easily and even the Martok changeling died after a few shots.

 

[Mr_Homn]

It wasn't even just humans. It was all humanoids which covers the vast majority of all sentient life in the Trekverse. They can put whatever labels they want on it to justify it to themselves, but there's no getting around the fact they were morally lacking... not because they -had- the phobias of the solids but because they sought to control and dominate them through the Dominion.

Yep. I don't care if they didn't "view" it as evil. Armus would have approved of that kind of hatred and intolerance. It's the sort of thing he feeds off of. It's obviously not something his creators would retain if they are his total opposite.

Besides... that light thing Armus killed Yar with. The Founders never displayed abilities like that, or those to absorb phaser fire. Mirror Odo blew up quite easily and even the Martok changeling died after a few shots.

Founders also never showed the capability of generating energy fields around themselves that were capable of blocking sensors, communications, and transporters without the aid of any scientific equipment. They never showed the ability to manipulate and move around objects 30 feet away with their thoughts. (geordi's visor)

Those were things Armus could do that the Founders couldn't.

 

[Timo]

You are selling the Founders quite short here, which I must continue to object to.

-Gamma quadrant and Vagra II are seperated by an extreme distance. Founders extremely, extraordinarily unlikely to be from Vagra II

Quite the opposite: Founders are established as traveling across the entire galaxy (Odo got from Gamma to Alpha), and as abandoning planet after planet in order to find a clean start and a better hideaway.

-Founders and other changelings like Odo or Laas have obvious negative qualities to their personalities. Insecurity, hatred, capable of orchestrating massive attacks on civilians, prejudice, violence, anger, etc.

And? Armus has those, too. So Founders would be a natural source, and good parent candidates.

On the other hand, the idea of "leaving evil behind" is too absurd to be taken seriously. Evil isn't a specific isolated quantity, it's the inherent consequence of thinking and inseparable from good. Even gods must compromise and smite a few cities every now and then. So, even if the Founders felt a bit better after dumping their worries on the hapless Armus, they'd soon be back to their old selves. And thus anything resembling Armus would be the best possible candidate for the origin of Armus.

-Armus has telekenetic powers that the Founders lack.

Laas had telekinetic powers. He flew through space without Newtonian thrust!

-Armus shows no ability to shape shift beyond a pool and a pile of sludge.

Which would be consistent for somebody punished by Founders. He's actually faring better than Odo! It would do no good to leave him with the ability to turn into a spaceship...

-Armus was capable of generating, around itself, an intense undefined energy field. With this energy field, it was capable of blocking sensors, communications, and transporters without the aid of any scientific equipment. The Founders simply could not do anything like this.

The Founders always block sensors. Even better, they fool the blocked sensors into thinking there is something else there.

The Founders can also, say, absorb phaser blasts to a degree (say, "Heart of Stone" or the long death in "Apocalypse Rising"). Just because Odo never made tactical use of such abilities is no proof of anything, as he was but an unskilled infant.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[NrobbieC]

Laas had telekinetic powers. He flew through space without Newtonian thrust!

No he just transformed into a comsmozoan (I think that's the right word)

 

[Timo]

...And flew in formation with a runabout at impulse speeds, meaning he had what amounted to inborn powers of moving things about in a vacuum. That doesn't really fall short of telekinesis, even when he's just moving himself. (Armus could have been moving bits of himself, too, when yanking the phasers out of the hands of the heroes - just very small bits!)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sindatur]

...And flew in formation with a runabout at impulse speeds, meaning he had what amounted to inborn powers of moving things about in a vacuum. That doesn't really fall short of telekinesis, even when he's just moving himself. (Armus could have been moving bits of himself, too, when yanking the phasers out of the hands of the heroes - just very small bits!)

Timo Saloniemi

Keep it PG, let's not talk about Armus' small bits

 

[R. Star]

^
Actually that would explain why he was so angry.

 

[Mr_Homn]

edit

 

[Mr_Homn]

On the other hand, the idea of "leaving evil behind" is too absurd to be taken seriously. Evil isn't a specific isolated quantity, it's the inherent consequence of thinking and inseparable from good. Even gods must compromise and smite a few cities every now and then.

Just because you don't buy into the idea of Armus in the first place, doesn't mean you throw the writers intent out the window. The creators of Armus have shed their evil, he is their "skin of evil", that's why he exists. He exists so they could live on without evil in them. The founders have plenty of negative attributes. The theory doesn't work, unless you choose to ignore the episode like you are.

Laas had telekinetic powers. He flew through space without Newtonian thrust!

No, he did not. That has nothing to do with telekinetic powers.. It's also not the sort of powers I was referring to, and you know that, you were just purposely misunderstanding.

Armus manipulates objects that are 30+ feet away mentally. He moves geordi's visor with his mind. He sucks Riker in without touching him. Why don't the founders ever telekinetically rip the weapons out of their hands from their opponents?

The founders do not have these powers, and if they were capable of creating a being that had them, don't you think they would have used this to their advantage against their enemies? Of course they would.

The Founders always block sensors. Even better, they fool the blocked sensors into thinking there is something else there.

I haven't seen every single ds9 episode (I'm working onit) but I know that the Founders use automated transponders to send back false life sensor readings in the Die Is Cast. Armus would never have to use technology for this, he clearly showed he could do it with his own natural powers. I'm fairly sure that the founders were never once were able to block communications and transporters with without the use of technology the way Armus was able to.

Your theories are fun and sometimes feasible, Timo, but they are much better when they are used to explain some apparent inconsistency or abide by the facts of the episodes. This is just a totally unnecessary, random, and unbelievable connection, and even more of a reach than your usual stuff (Which I often find very entertaining).

 

[Timo]

No, he did not. That has nothing to do with telekinetic powers.. It's also not the sort of powers I was referring to, and you know that, you were just purposely misunderstanding.

You don't seem to understand the physics involved. What Laas does is more than what Armus does - which means that Armus could be a Founder crippled by his creators, much like Odo once was.

Armus manipulates objects that are 30+ feet away mentally. He moves geordi's visor with his mind. He sucks Riker in without touching him.

Laas manipulates objects that are hundreds of thousands of kilometers away at the very least! That's what it means to be able to glide through space without spitting propellant out of your ass - you're pushing off distant planets. Or perhaps off the very structure of space itself, which is an even greater feat and allows for a greater range of magic, certainly involving the levitating of other people's accessories. And he does that "mentally", without using tentacles or other physical things. Just like Armus.

The founders do not have these powers, and if they were capable of creating a being that had them, don't you think they would have used this to their advantage against their enemies? Of course they would.

The Founders do not use powers of any sort (including simple brawn) against their enemies in any episode. They don't fight: they have others to do it for them. There would be no point in using telekinesis against Odo when he grabs "Leyton" in "Homefront", or against Sisko when he feebly tries to swing his phaser at "Bashir" in "The Adversary" before "Bashir" changes to goo that rushes into a vent.

On the other hand, Founders do amazing things in goo form. That leap "Bashir" performed in "The Adversary" is already as good as levitation.

Clearly they have nothing to do with Armus.

Armus demonstrates lesser powers than the Founders. So he may be unrelated, or he may be a hobbled Founder. Both options remain open.

The Founders use automated transponders to send back false life sensor readings in the Die Is Cast.

Or so the Romulans think, at any rate.

Armus would never have to use technology for this, he clearly showed he could do it with his own natural powers.

Not a matter of powers. If Armus did it himself, he would be in the receiving end of Armageddon-level bombardment. The Founders were simply smarter than that.

Founders were never once were able to block communications and transporters with without the use of technology the way Armus was able to.

When would they have wanted to block communications or transporters?

This is just a totally unnecessary, random, and unbelievable connection

Quite so. But it's a possible one if one so prefers, and takes a lot of effort to actually rule out.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr_Homn]

So you're saying the Founders and Laas and possibly Odo were capable of moving all sorts of objects and people around with the power of their minds, but over the course of seven seasons of DS9 it just... never came up? Right.

I think someone as imaginative as yourself could come up with several other explanations for Laas's ability to do what he did without Telekinesis. Perhaps he just shapeshifted into a solar sail for most of his journey and that allowed him to pick up speed more and more in the inertia of space.

I don't think it takes much effort at all to disprove the theory, within reason. I've already done so multiple times in this thread. You just choose not to accept it.