Origin of Andorian Marriage Customs?

[foravalon]

Frack! Therin beat me to it, that lovable blue devil!

 

[Therin of Andor]

foravalon said:
But that might be a simplification considering the name of Pava Ek'Noor sh'Aqabaa and her mother Undeieela zh'Noor. Although thier names might not be accurate.
For example, I'm not sure where the name Aqabaa first came in. In the SFA comic I read with Pava's mother, she was only called "Undeieela Noor", some Memory Beta contributor might have correctly added a Zh' to the name but incorrectly added it to "Noor".

Pava, a creation of the Marvel/Paramount "Starfleet Academy" comic, only gained her gender prefix when she cameoed in a Titan novel. In the comic, she was simply Pava Ek'Noor Aqabaa.

Some fan contributor to the wiki is extrapolating her zhavey's full name.

 

[Turtletrekker]

^ That has been fixed. Besides, Undeieela is obviously a shen...

 

[Therin of Andor]

Q420 said:
^ That has been fixed. Besides, Undeieela is obviously a shen...

Why do you say that? IIRC, it's unusual for Andorians to keep much contact with their other parents.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I shoulda put a " ".

Aren't the shen the more aggressive and, well, sexy, of the Andorian female genders?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Q420 said:
Aren't the shen the more aggressive and, well, sexy, of the Andorian female genders?

I seem to recall Dizhei, the shen of Shar's bondgroup being quite plain and dumpy, but outgoing, while the zhens were very feminine.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Well, I will trust your memory over mine on things Andorian any day.

 

[Timo]

As a biological apropos, are the Andorians the only species on their planet to have the four-gendered setup? Or do we learn of other species of the same reproductive strategy, perhaps allowing us to establish when in the evolutionary process the strategy was adopted?

On the various names of General Shran, we should probably seriously consider that he has more honorifics than just his military rank. Some might get translated in official UFP records, some not. After all, we know Mohandas Gandhi by a variety of "western" titles, but his most famous title Mahatma is always left untranslated. (So is the title "Christ" in the name of Jesus of Nazaret, but I'm not sure Shran was quite that big a celebrity...)

And we officially name nuclear submarines after "Jimmy Carter", not "James Earl Carter Jr"! A sparkling personality such as Shran might quite well be known chiefly by his colorful nickname.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Trek]

Timo said:
As a biological apropos, are the Andorians the only species on their planet to have the four-gendered setup? Or do we learn of other species of the same reproductive strategy, perhaps allowing us to establish when in the evolutionary process the strategy was adopted?

I believe that according to Paradigm(sp?) in WOrlds of DS9 that they're the only four gendered lifeform on the planet.

 

[3D Master]

foravalon said:
I wondered that too, and I think that is indeed the case, as with "Shar" Thirishar ch'Thane and his Zhavey, Charivretha zh'Thane, there is also Shathrissia zh'Cheen and her Zhavey Sessethantis zh'Cheen.

And it seems the Zhavey's family name is preceeded by the gender prefix of the named individual, like Ch'Thane, Sh'Thane, or the lispy Th'Thane, if Shar had Shen and Thaan siblings.

But that might be a simplification considering the name of Pava Ek'Noor sh'Aqabaa and her mother Undeieela zh'Noor. Although thier names might not be accurate.
For example, I'm not sure where the name Aqabaa first came in. In the SFA comic I read with Pava's mother, she was only called "Undeieela Noor", some Memory Beta contributor might have correctly added a Zh' to the name but incorrectly added it to "Noor". The full name of Pava's mother is then perhaps "Undeieela Noor zh'Aqabaa", with Pava's "Ek'Noor" paying some kind of regard to that.

If that's the case it could also be that as a famous author of romantic holonovels the name "Undeieela Noor" is akin to something like "Rita Sue", a first name by which she is notoriously known.

It can work...

Pava Ek'Noor has no zh', sh', or whatever prefix. She's a female Andorian, a very unrepressed, outgoing female Andorian, from before Andorians had four genders and had trouble reproducing, and were expected to be sitting on their asses on Andor purely to reproduce.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Timo said:
As a biological apropos, are the Andorians the only species on their planet to have the four-gendered setup? Or do we learn of other species of the same reproductive strategy, perhaps allowing us to establish when in the evolutionary process the strategy was adopted?

Without giving away too much re the conclusion of "Andor: Paradigm" (in "WoDS9, Book 1"), the search for evidence of something else on Andor that has the same four-gendered paradigm - and thus a vital key to solving the population problem - is a major subplot. Without such evidence, even in the fossil record, it seemed to many Andorian scientists that the Andorian people may not have been native to their supposed homeworld. Read "Paradigm" for the solution.

 

[Therin of Andor]

3D Master said:
Pava Ek'Noor has no zh', sh', or whatever prefix.

She does now: "Titan" novel, "The Red King" (2005).

 

[Timo]

I will, thank you!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tobin_Dax]

Reading through this thread, I'm tempted to post my Andorian genetics scheme.

Since I'm thinking and posting about this, how many of the four genders provide genetic material to the offspring? The details of who provides what (and the zhen incubating) imply to me that the zhen doesn't provide any genetic material to the zygote. (See Therin's post on the first page.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

Tobin_Dax said:
The details of who provides what (and the zhen incubating) imply to me that the zhen doesn't provide any genetic material to the zygote. (See Therin's post on the first page.)

However, the zhavey nurtures the child in her temporary kheth (pouch), which grows over and around the lower abdomen for the final phase of Andorian gestation. Speculating: I would think that influential, unique zhavey hormones etc would steer the development of the foetus in certain ways, even if no actual genetic material was contributed at fertilization. (Where's Heather?) The same foetus in a different kheth and with a different zhavey would develop in different ways.

 

[foravalon]

Q420 said:
I shoulda put a " ".

Aren't the shen the more aggressive and, well, sexy, of the Andorian female genders?

I think it's more like the Zhens are girly-girly, graceful and elegant in appearance and demeanor and the Shens, while feminine, are more rough and tumble and warrior-like. Hence Pava, and Talas too IMO.

Q420 said:
^ That [Undeieela zh'Noor] has been fixed. Besides, Undeieela is obviously a shen...

But wait! I think the Zh' prefix is correct, and assuming that Undeieela is Pava's more traditional "Mother" Zhavey, and if Pava's full name is Pava Ek'Noor sh'Aqabaa, then it should follow that Undeieela's full name should be Undeieela Noor Zh'Aqabaa.

So here's my rationale, it appears by last name sake as well as major familiarity that, of the four genetic donors, young Andorians identify parentally mostly with their Zhaveys, making the Zhavey into what most closely translates to us the identity of a mother.

It seems that after bonding and reproduction, the obligation now fulfilled, an Andorian can choose a partner to pair with if they so desire, like Shran and Talas. If there is a Zhavey and child involved in that pairing and that "father" for lack of a better term, is more greatly involved in that child's upbringing than the average Shen, Chan, or Thaan. It seems traditionally that the child's name then adopts an aspect of that "father's" name.

This situation could occur for a number of reasons, especially considering the importance of upbringing children in Andorian Society. If the Zhavey could not fulfill her duties to the fullest extant (say if she were a huge celebrity author) then having a more full time "father" would be a great benefit. Zhavey's busy, so enter our romantic Thaan "Ssomebodi Ek Th'Somebodii" and suddenly, uncommonly for Andorians, Pava has an ever present father-figure while growing up. Her name changes from Pava Noor sh'Aqabaa, to Pava Ek'Noor sh'Aqabaa. Ta daa!

As Pava tells her classmate in SFA #13 "Andorian reproduction is complicated", even more when a "father" if any, is involved.

::whew::

 

[JD]

That sounds like a pretty good theory to me. :thumbsup:

 

[foravalon]

foravalon said:
As Pava tells her classmate in SFA #13 "Andorian reproduction is complicated", even more when a "father" if any, is involved.

//\\ Correction to above, Pava more specifically says "father or fathers...".

To which her C.O. responds, "Well, I'm looking forward to meeting All your parents..."

 

[Holytomato]

"Origin of Andorian Marriage Customs?"

Three days ago I was going to post this question.

I remember Reading TNG's Eye of the Beholders. Selar and the child were great characters. The next Andorian characters I read were DS9's Millenium, and Starfleet Academy's Geordi adventures. Next was DS9R.

Andorians- Greatest thing since sliced bread.

Ok ok. I can't stop myself. I'm finally going to read my downloaded FASA RPG books.

Just like the M'ress post a pic rule, there should be a similar Andorian rule.

:thumbsup:

sidenote- When is Decipher going to put up Among the Clans Price of Freedom, and Worlds on drivethrustuff & rpgnow!?

ADB's Federation?

 

[Tobin_Dax]

Therin of Andor said:

Tobin_Dax said:
The details of who provides what (and the zhen incubating) imply to me that the zhen doesn't provide any genetic material to the zygote. (See Therin's post on the first page.)

However, the zhavey nurtures the child in her temporary kheth (pouch), which grows over and around the lower abdomen for the final phase of Andorian gestation. Speculating: I would think that influential, unique zhavey hormones etc would steer the development of the foetus in certain ways, even if no actual genetic material was contributed at fertilization. (Where's Heather?) The same foetus in a different kheth and with a different zhavey would develop in different ways.

Sounds reasonable to me. As I see it, there are plenty of reasons for the zhavey's importance both in society and to the child that make up for any lack of genetic impetus.