Organization of Federation Government

[lostshaker]

There should be no doubt that the Federation permits secession

It would be hard to imagine the Federation having a policy of "the door slams behind you."

Marla McGivers seceded from the Federation to join Khan

That really isn't "secession." She didn't even (on screen) officially renounce her citizenship - to Earth or the Federation. Nor did she resign her officer's commission.

That would be more of a case of them emigrating to Cardassia. I don't think that planet was ever a part of the Federation.

As I understand it, the Constitution provides for secession if 50% of the states agree, whether by the state legislatures or by congress isn't clear.

Another point that indicates planetary sovereignty over the Federation's centralized government is the nebulous nature of the Federation's and Earth's economic systems.

One of the things I believe about the Federation, is that it has a vast number of different types of economic systems, government types, cultures and societies, what I can't believe is that the Federation has just one type of anything from one end to the other.

The Federation uses a credit-based system while Earth has been reported to have abandoned money.

And the Bolian homeworld has a major interstellar bank. In at least one TOS episode, the Enterprise is carrying freight.

Freight: "goods, cargo, or lading transported for pay."

The Federation may not slam the door, but if it's in Section 31's interests...

Marla McGivers gave up her commission the moment she committed mutiny against her crew and helped Khan. She was going to face a court martial and the evidence against her was as tight as a Ferengi's grip on a bar of gold pressed latinuum. But Kirk's alternative, permitting her to go with Khan, carried with it consequences, among those exile and the loss of citizenship. And if she still were a citizen, why not call the Federation for help when Ceti Alpha VI exploded? Why would Kirk leave Khan a subspace transmitter when he could use the technology to lure an unsuspecting ship into his grip just as he had done with the Enterprise? The fact that Kirk gave McGivers a choice means that she voluntarily divorced herself from Earth, Starfleet, and the Federation.

I don't agree with the emigration comparison, but assuming that is correct, the Indian Tribe would still have to secede from the Federation first. Think of it this way... Florida can't just join Russia, because the States delegated Treaty negotiation to the Federal Government under the Constitution. Thus, Flordia would have to secede first, reclaiming the power to negotiate treaties on its own authority, and then join with Russia.

The Constitution is silent on secession. But the 10th Amendment guarantees all reserved rights to the States. The Declaration of Independence is a declaration of secession. In their ratification ordinances, the States of New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia retained the right to secede at any given date and extended this right to all other States in the Union. No State needs the approval of another State nor a consensus to secede. If that were the case than a system of slavery would exist. Should an abused wife seek the consent of her abusive husband to secure a divorce?

I do agree completely that the Federation is composed of diverse societies with their own individualized systems. I wish the writers of DS9 had exploited this feature to grant the Federation a strategic advantage during the Dominion War.

 

[jmampilly]

In DS9 Betazed had it's own military, which was described as second rate. In TOS the Enterprise was repeatedly referred to as a Earth ship.

To be fair, we really didn't see Bolarus IX or Vulcan during the Dominion War, so the possibility still exists that Federation worlds still had their own forces in addition to Starfleet

Or the ships in Starfleet are from the various Member fleets and are deployed in Starfleet operations. Similar to how UN naval fleets are composed of UN Member's ships and they refer to themselves as "UN warships" but their home countries never relinquish "ownership."

During the Dominion War, we saw nothing but Starfleet vessels in service. There were no uniquely "Bolian" or "Vulcan" vessels, for example.

But consider, Starfleet was often spoken of as being somewhat undersized (only ship in the ...), then after the beginning of the Dominion War we start to see and hear of massive fleets. I believe these were the Member's home fleets, being deployed in large numbers to fight the Dominion.

An attack on one, is an attack on all.

Regarding the references in TOS to Enterprise as an "Earth ship", these are largely isolated to the first season. This was because it was only after the first season that Roddenberry and company dreamed up the Federation. So, the TOS references could largely be dismissed as a production fluke.

And, if the combined fleets in DS9 were to be seen as a sort of "UN fleet", why do all the ships have the same standard look and design? Surely each member world would have its own unique design conventions. Wouldn't Vulcan ships look different from Earth ones, Bolian ones, and Andorian ones?

 

[T'Girl]

But Kirk's alternative, permitting her to go with Khan, carried with it consequences, among those exile and the loss of citizenship.

I wonder about that last, modern day (as I understand it) America lacks the legal ability to strip a born citizen of their citizenship, this might be different in other nations. Even if he had wanted to, could Kirk have taken McGiver's citizenship away?

And if she still were a citizen, why not call the Federation for help when Ceti Alpha VI exploded?

Because she lacked the ability.

The fact that Kirk gave McGivers a choice means that she voluntarily divorced herself from Earth, Starfleet, and the Federation.

That doesn't automatically follow.

 

[lostshaker]

But Kirk's alternative, permitting her to go with Khan, carried with it consequences, among those exile and the loss of citizenship.

I wonder about that last, modern day (as I understand it) America lacks the legal ability to strip a born citizen of their citizenship, this might be different in other nations. Even if he had wanted to, could Kirk have taken McGiver's citizenship away?

And if she still were a citizen, why not call the Federation for help when Ceti Alpha VI exploded?

Because she lacked the ability.

The fact that Kirk gave McGivers a choice means that she voluntarily divorced herself from Earth, Starfleet, and the Federation.

That doesn't automatically follow.

There's no evidence either way to know if Kirk could strip McGivers of her citizenship. Of course, I simply meant that McGivers would be sacrificing these things as a consequence of choosing to go with Khan, as opposed to staying on the Enterprise and facing a court martial.

I realize that McGivers lacked the ability to contact the Federation for reasons previously stated. The lack of ability speaks to the heart of why McGivers, for all practical purposes, renounced her Earth/Federation citizenship. Kirk's intent was to leave Khan to do his own thing without interference. Assuming McGivers understood the Prime Directive, she knew that no one would ever be returning until the day when Khan's descendants met the criteria for First Contact. Consider the principle of free association, which the Federation is generally good at honoring. It was in the Federation's and Khan's best interests to part ways, as any interaction would likely end in violence. Khan proved as much in TWOK.

While the consequence doesn't automatically follow, it is what happened based on the dynamics of her situation and for the reasons presented. Again, I reiterate the principle of free association and the Prime Directive, which still apply to Khan.

 

[Enterprise1701]

It is clear that individual states don't have their own militaries

FWIW, in the DS9 Homefront/Paradise Lost story, there was going to be a scene where Jaresh-Inyo "federalizes" local United Earth forces to deal with the crisis. But it was cut for time.

also strongly suggested that the central Federation government can't interfere in the internal policies of its constituent planets, beyond ensuring certain basic rights are not rescinded from anyone. This is also a necessity for merging the governments of hundreds of different planets, as it's a hedge against majoritarian tyranny. (The entire galaxy can't vote to change a specific law on Vulcan, though perhaps a judge could overturn it).

IIRC, Federation member worlds are pretty much left to run their own local affairs as they see fit. The Federation basically only has two overarching laws that all worlds must comply with: 1) No caste-based discrimination, and 2) One world government. Apart from that, it's wide open, really.

Well the novels use the reasonable interpretation that the Bajoran Militia still exists after Bajor joins the Federation. And that the Andorian Imperial Guard still exists domestically on Andor in the 24th century.

 

[T'Girl]

all worlds must comply with: 1) No caste-based discrimination ...

I do find interesting the phasing of that. It isn't no castes what-so-ever, it's no caste-based discrimination.

So castes (in of themselves) aren't necessarily off limits.

... if the combined fleets in DS9 were to be seen as a sort of "UN fleet", why do all the ships have the same standard look and design?

Okay, think about the Enterprise "refit' and the Grissom in TWOK. There are certainly differences in hull layout and engine designs. The two ship's engines look nothing like each others. The deflector design is extremely different.

Move forward a century, the Defiant was built in the Antares ship yard, it's hull design is dissimilar and also has a engine design unlike that of other ships that we see. Again the deflector is extremely different.

Surely each member world would have its own unique design conventions.

Yes, but Federation Members could buy ships from each other or from outside. Depending on their needs and the demands of their budgets.

So both Earth and Vulcan could employ starships built in a shipyard around Mars. The T'Kumbra was a Vulcan ship, but not built by them.

Wouldn't Vulcan ships look different from Earth ones, Bolian ones, and Andorian ones?

Modern day, relatively few countries build their own large naval vessels, they import them from the few countries with the necessary shipyards. Or they acquire older vessels. We see a fair number of near-century old Excelsiors on missions.

Many Federation Members might be incapable of constructing truly large starships, but their home fleets do operate such ships.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

all worlds must comply with: 1) No caste-based discrimination ...

I do find interesting the phasing of that. It isn't no castes what-so-ever, it's no caste-based discrimination.

So castes (in of themselves) aren't necessarily off limits.

Social castes pretty much ARE discriminatory, by definition. How could they even exist without it?

 

[MacLeod]

Sure it all depends on how the caste system would work.

Can you switch caste?
Do you get to choose which caste, i.e when you reach adulthood?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ If people can move between castes, and/or choose their own, then the caste system means nothing.

 

[jmampilly]

all worlds must comply with: 1) No caste-based discrimination ...

I do find interesting the phasing of that. It isn't no castes what-so-ever, it's no caste-based discrimination.

So castes (in of themselves) aren't necessarily off limits.

... if the combined fleets in DS9 were to be seen as a sort of "UN fleet", why do all the ships have the same standard look and design?

Okay, think about the Enterprise "refit' and the Grissom in TWOK. There are certainly differences in hull layout and engine designs. The two ship's engines look nothing like each others. The deflector design is extremely different.

Move forward a century, the Defiant was built in the Antares ship yard, it's hull design is dissimilar and also has a engine design unlike that of other ships that we see. Again the deflector is extremely different.

Surely each member world would have its own unique design conventions.

Yes, but Federation Members could buy ships from each other or from outside. Depending on their needs and the demands of their budgets.

So both Earth and Vulcan could employ starships built in a shipyard around Mars. The T'Kumbra was a Vulcan ship, but not built by them.

Wouldn't Vulcan ships look different from Earth ones, Bolian ones, and Andorian ones?

Modern day, relatively few countries build their own large naval vessels, they import them from the few countries with the necessary shipyards. Or they acquire older vessels. We see a fair number of near-century old Excelsiors on missions.

Many Federation Members might be incapable of constructing truly large starships, but their home fleets do operate such ships.

Now, the T'Kumbra may have been all Vulcan, however that probably resulted partially from its captain's biases. In addition, Sisko referred to the T'Kumbra as a Starfleet vessel. If it was a Vulcan ship, then Sisko would have referred to it as Vulcan ship.

 

[T'Girl]

Do you get to choose which caste, i.e when you reach adulthood?

Caste aren't just what jobs you work in, like going into the family business. They're also social groupings. So you may want to join that group over there, but that doesn't mean they'll let you in.

In America we legally have a "right of association," a freedom guaranteed by the first amendment of the Constitution.

^ If people can move between castes, and/or choose their own, then the caste system means nothing.

Not automatically, the people in the caste, or a sub-group controlling "admissions" can decide who gains entry. Modern day they would get in trouble if they tried to control who voluntarily leaves.

You might want to join the longshoreman's union, but that doesn't get you in, however in your father or uncle is a member in good standing, your entry will be much easier.

Marrying the daughter of a wealthy family is more likely if you also come from wealth. In some cases being a nice Jewish boy helps too.

A few years ago my best friend entered into a arranged marriage, her husband (surprise) came from the same social class as her family (and he's a dentist !!!).

So if the Federation also has a legal protection like "right of association," then there could not be a general prohibition agains castes.

 

[lostshaker]

In America we legally have a "right of association," a freedom guaranteed by the first amendment of the Constitution.

In America, the right to associate is more of a facade. State and Federal courts have consistently ruled that the right to associate applies in one's private life, but not if one owns a business, despite the business being privately owned and serving the private sector. For example, a baker can't deny his services to homosexuals. Free association means that the owner can choose his customers just as the customer can choose their provider.

 

[Nightdiamond]

But that would also mean that Earth's and the Federation's Utopia and freedom is a facade.

Since there is no discrimination on earth in Trek and one of the requirements is that a member practices no discrimination, that means either citizens are forbidden to discriminate or they all 100% choose not to for the good of the rest of society.
--Or both.


The moment you even get close to concepts like castes you're already flirting with things like oppression and unfairness.

Caste systems usually imply that your freedom of choice is automatically forfeited before you can consent.

When the Bajorans brought theirs back, you could see how backwards and damaging it was.

The freedom of choice was taken away from the citizens in order to follow a warped social/religious idea of how things should be grouped.

Have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[lostshaker]

I don't remember any instance where it was explicitly stated that humans no longer discriminate. 22nd, 23rd, and 24th Century humans have been shown discriminating against other humans and aliens. People discriminated against Barclay, including Riker and LaForge, and Barclay was one of their own, as opposed to the Ferengi.

That being said, the writers do tread a slippery slope at times.

 

[T'Girl]

... Sisko referred to the T'Kumbra as a Starfleet vessel. If it was a Vulcan ship, then Sisko would have referred to it as Vulcan ship.

Just ran through the transcript, on a few occasions the T'Kumbra is referred to as a starship, but I didn't see where it was referred to as a Starfleet vessel.

However, we do have this ...

Solok: I have come to expect a lack of professionalism and efficiency on starbases run by human officers.

Sisko: You're welcome to take your ship to a Vulcan station. I think there's one about fifty light years away.

Vulcan has it's own stations.

courts have consistently ruled that the right to associate applies in one's private life, but not if one owns a business

Here (and maybe where you are) we have private membership businesses, they control who obtains membership, you have to apply, and show a card to enter. I belong to a private membership store/gas station (and they have a bakery).

And the examples I gave previously were in the areas of private groups and associations.

 

[MacLeod]

I don't remember any instance where it was explicitly stated that humans no longer discriminate. 22nd, 23rd, and 24th Century humans have been shown discriminating against other humans and aliens. People discriminated against Barclay, including Riker and LaForge, and Barclay was one of their own, as opposed to the Ferengi.

That being said, the writers do tread a slippery slope at times.

How was Barclay discriminated against? Yes perhaps he was socially excluded because he had lower slelf-condifence/esteem had he not had those issues they likely wouldn't have been jerks to him.

 

[lostshaker]

courts have consistently ruled that the right to associate applies in one's private life, but not if one owns a business

Here (and maybe where you are) we have private membership businesses, they control who obtains membership, you have to apply, and show a card to enter. I belong to a private membership store/gas station (and they have a bakery).

And the examples I gave previously were in the areas of private groups and associations.

Private membership businesses certainly exist, as I'm a member of a few different ones such as my local CSA. But many of those businesses are organized in a specific manner to circumvent government laws against discrimination or other inane nonsense like the FDA's grudge against raw milk. I applaud such businesses for nullifying inept State and Federal Laws, but it is an extra step forced upon a business that strives for a specific cliental.

 

[lostshaker]

I don't remember any instance where it was explicitly stated that humans no longer discriminate. 22nd, 23rd, and 24th Century humans have been shown discriminating against other humans and aliens. People discriminated against Barclay, including Riker and LaForge, and Barclay was one of their own, as opposed to the Ferengi.

That being said, the writers do tread a slippery slope at times.

How was Barclay discriminated against? Yes perhaps he was socially excluded because he had lower slelf-condifence/esteem had he not had those issues they likely wouldn't have been jerks to him.

Remember Barclay's nickname -- Broccoli? And it was also suggested by Riker that Barclay was transferred to the Enterprise in a "he's your problem now" kind of way. Social exclusion is a form of discrimination.

 

[PhoenixClass]

I think the point is that humans not longer practice institutionalized, systematic discrimination. Individuals still have their flaws and make mistakes, of course. The problem with Barclay was that he was not performing well and no one took the time to understand him until Picard refused to give up on him. Barclay's "exclusion" was a failure of leadership in his particular case, not a result of systematic discrimination.

 

[lostshaker]

I don't believe the discrimination Barclay received was systemically based, as he had made a career in Starfleet, just that he was discriminated on an individualized basis.