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Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

Chakotay / Seven pairing gets:

  • Thumbs up!

    Votes: 21 17.8%
  • Thumbs down!

    Votes: 97 82.2%

  • Total voters
    118
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Not open for further replies.
^ lynx, you are one fast poster but I appreciate your cooperation. :)

Edited to add: Doh! teya, you're fast too!

Well, since no one is taking me up on the beer I'm going to take my bottles here and go practice my speed typing. Before I go though I will leave you with a quote:

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"

I will add to that "without your consent or unless you do something stupid enough to get onto the yearly Darwin report."

Ciao!
 
Then the new people in charge kill off Janeway, somnething which have once again annoyed and insulted the most loyal and ardent group of fans Voyager ever had. Imagine the reaction if they, on top of that would dig up that dreaded C/7 as more salt in the wounds.

The problem with this analysis of the situation is that hardcore 'shippers probably make up a pretty small percentage of the total amount of Voyager viewers. So in the grand scheme of things TPTB are not going to be worried about their opinion. Whatever decisions they make somebody is going to criticise them for it. If they don't put various characters in relationships with each other than people complain that Trek doesn't 'do' romance and if they put characters together romantically then people complain because it's not their favourite pairing. The only other option is to put characters together with new characters who aren't part of the main 'cast', that isn't going to happen often in the television shows (at least not long-lasting relationships) and in Trek Lit people complain because the new characters are boring OR they take story time away from the characters we already have OR question why new characters are being introduced for a romantic sub-plot because pre-existing Character X and Character Y would be perfect together etc etc etc. (As a side-note I apologise for the over-use of the word 'character' in that paragraph.) ;)

Also, killing of Janeway probably annoyed most of the Voyager fans, not just the J/Cers. She was the captain and lead character of the series after all.

And why should he start chasing after Seven, forgetting Janeway just like you switch off a light? What kind of man would that be, his former beloved hasn't got stiff in the grave and he's running back to his old mistress or whatever? It wouldfbe the definite destruction of Chakotay too, making him look even more ridiculous than in "Endgame"

That's certainly not how it was written in 'Full Circle'. I don't know whether you read the book (I'm guessing not...?) but Chakotay has been treated with more respect by Kirsten Beyer as a character than I've ever seen him be shown in the television show or in most of the tie-in literature. Not only that but the author has stated on several occasions how much she liked Janeway, (I think maybe she said she was her favourite character to write for?) so she's hardly going to write something that abuses her memory in such a way.

Also, Seven could hardly be described as his old 'mistress'! :p

I guess the old wounds aren't as healed as some would like us to believe.

It seems even if they were, Janeway's death has opened up new ones. Which is a shame because to be honest as much as her passing has nixed any chance of J/C (for as long as TPTB decide to keep her dead for that is) I don't see what the decision the editor(s) made regarding her being killed off has to do with the shipper wars? I would be very shocked if the next book 'Unworthy' went all C/7 on us, it doesn't seem to me to be the logical place to go to character or story-wise from this point. So if people are frightened of that then I personally think it's pretty baseless and if people are annoyed because the J/C relationship in 'Full Circle' won't be allowed to move on from the point it was left at then consider that if the decision to kill her hadn't have been made then maybe they wouldn't have gone as far with J/C as they eventually decided to go anyway. Who knows? At least J/C is somewhat canon now... depending on how people take the books.

So they look to tell good stories and don't become beholden to fan expectations. Which is as it should be.

This is correct and y'know maybe sometimes we don't agree with their decisions; I think killing off Janeway is a crappy idea and I will always think this as far as I can see. However, I have to admit, as much as it's royally irritated some fans it has also generated a massive buzz about the Voyager 're-relaunch', which is a positive thing. Kathryn was/is an amazing character and I love her to bits but there were still a bunch of other people on Voyager besides her and I don't see why stories written about them can't be good and interesting to read. I, personally, have a lot more patience with Trek Lit than I do with the way the series was run/written and I do think overall that the majority of stuff the Trek Lit authors write is worth reading, which is why I was willing to give them a chance with this storyline despite my initial sadness and disappointment upon first hearing about it.

Altho I do want Chakotay to be happy, I never saw him & 7 as compatible, and if killing off Janeway was cruel to her (many) fans, who do buy books, btw, then C/7 would only make it worse...

I think Trek Lit were working under the assumption that one character does not make a televison series/ship and there were still a bunch of others there on Voyager for people to enjoy reading about. Also they wanted to kill someone sufficiently important to the Trekverse without that person being super-popular and there is enough hate levelled at Voyager in general for them to believe Janeway was the best option, after all Sisko was gone for a massive period of time, Kirk is already dead and Picard is more popular than Janeway (I think?).

As regards the C/7 aspect of your comment, if the people who loved Janeway and hated her death have refused to buy the books anymore anyway then why should the editors care about their opinion for future storylines because they've said they won't be reading them. :confused:
 
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Some good points in Misco's post which I would like to discuss:

The problem with this analysis of the situation is that hardcore 'shippers probably make up a pretty small percentage of the total amount of Voyager viewers. So in the grand scheme of things TPTB are not going to be worried about their opinion. Whatever decisions they make somebody is going to criticise them for it. If they don't put various characters in relationships with each other than people complain that Trek doesn't 'do' romance and if they put characters together romantically then people complain because it's not their favourite pairing. The only other option is to put characters together with new characters who aren't part of the main 'cast', that isn't going to happen often in the television shows (at least not long-lasting relationships) and in Trek Lit people complain because the new characters are boring OR they take story time away from the characters we already have OR question why new characters are being introduced for a romantic sub-plot because pre-existing Character X and Character Y would be perfect together etc etc etc. (As a side-note I apologise for the over-use of the word 'character' in that paragraph.) ;)

Also, killing of Janeway probably annoyed most of the Voyager fans, not just the J/Cers. She was the captain and lead character of the series after all.

When it comes to shippers and relationships, I can agree. I can understand if an author of Star Trek books don't want to spend too much time on relationships or pair off X here with Y there and then get a smack on the head from some other fraction who wants X and Z paired off and I can also understand if they don't want to be directed by some faction of fans.

But they could at least leave it as it is, not break up something which is more and less accepted or liked by most of the fans.

That's certainly not how it was written in 'Full Circle'. I don't know whether you read the book (I'm guessing not...?) but Chakotay has been treated with more respect by Kirsten Beyer as a character than I've ever seen him be shown in the television show or in most of the tie-in literature. Not only that but the author has stated on several occasions how much she liked Janeway, (I think maybe she said she was her favourite character to write for?) so she's hardly going to write something that abuses her memory in such a way.

Also, Seven could hardly be described as his old 'mistress'!

No, I haven't read "Full Circle."

As fr Chakotay, I do hope that she will continue to treat the character with respect and don' make him look like a fool.

As for Janeway, if Janeway is her favorite character to write for, why didn't she fight for keeping the character? Imagine how many great adventures we could have had with the character and a good author (which Golden actually is) who could come up with great stories for her favorite character.

I mean, I write some fan-fiction myself. If someone offered me a contract but the prize I would have to pay was to kill off Kes or some other favorite character, my reply would be "no way". In that case I rather write books about other subjects.

It seems even if they were, Janeway's death has opened up new ones. Which is a shame because to be honest as much as her passing has nixed any chance of J/C (for as long as TPTB decide to keep her dead for that is) I don't see what the decision the editor(s) made regarding her being killed off has to do with the shipper wars? I would be very shocked if the next book 'Unworthy' went all C/7 on us, it doesn't seem to me to be the logical place to go to character or story-wise from this point. So if people are frightened of that then I personally think it's pretty baseless and if people are annoyed because the J/C relationship in 'Full Circle' won't be allowed to move on from the point it was left at then consider that if the decision to kill her hadn't have been made then maybe they wouldn't have gone as far with J/C as they eventually decided to go anyway. Who knows? At least J/C is somewhat canon now... depending on how people take the books.

Well, I hope that you are right here but I've seen some signs which I find disturbing.

Personally I don't belong to the shippers, even if I do have some sympathy for the J/C-ers. When it comes to old wounds, for me it's the destruction of Kes all over again, this time with Janeway as victim.

As regards the C/7 aspect of your comment, if the people who loved Janeway and hated her death have refused to buy the books anymore anyway then why should the editors care about their opinion for future storylines because they've said they won't be reading them. :confused:

Maybe it would be in their interest to try to make them buy the books again.
 
Some good points in Misco's post which I would like to discuss:

When it comes to shippers and relationships, I can agree. I can understand if an author of Star Trek books don't want to spend too much time on relationships or pair off X here with Y there and then get a smack on the head from some other fraction who wants X and Z paired off and I can also understand if they don't want to be directed by some faction of fans.

But they could at least leave it as it is, not break up something which is more and less accepted or liked by most of the fans.

Why not, if they think it makes for a better story? Aside from that statement, the only thing they "broke up" was the C/7 pairing which was and is canon, and that was done by Christie Golden.

No, I haven't read "Full Circle."

As fr Chakotay, I do hope that she will continue to treat the character with respect and don' make him look like a fool.

As for Janeway, if Janeway is her favorite character to write for, why didn't she fight for keeping the character? Imagine how many great adventures we could have had with the character and a good author (which Golden actually is) who could come up with great stories for her favorite character.

I mean, I write some fan-fiction myself. If someone offered me a contract but the prize I would have to pay was to kill off Kes or some other favorite character, my reply would be "no way". In that case I rather write books about other subjects.

That's your prerogative, to turn down food on your table, but you shouldn't criticize other authors for choosing to sacrifice their favorite character for (a) a living and (b) a good story.

Asides, it's perfectly feasible to write your favorite character's death, or write them out of the story. Good stories can be told about a character's death, including a favorite character. It's disingenuous to say that accepting a contract to flesh out the death of your favorite character is a bad decision.

Well, I hope that you are right here but I've seen some signs which I find disturbing.

Personally I don't belong to the shippers, even if I do have some sympathy for the J/C-ers. When it comes to old wounds, for me it's the destruction of Kes all over again, this time with Janeway as victim.

See above - death is not character assassination.

Maybe it would be in their interest to try to make them buy the books again.

Using your own logic from above, If someone offered me a contract but the prize I would have to pay was to pander to a specific minority of the audience's desires, my reply would be "no way". In that case I rather write books that tell good stories that I want to tell and move the universe in the direction I think is correct.

What's in the best interests of PocketBooks is to make money, and they've decided they have a particular best way of pursuing that. Compromising their storytelling because a specific minority group of fans is displeased is a terrible idea, because if they adopted that model they would never tell any stories.
 
But they could at least leave it as it is, not break up something which is more and less accepted or liked by most of the fans.
"Most" is debatable, but I won't bother. There are plenty of people who are of the belief that there was nothing to break up. To each their own.

As for Janeway, if Janeway is her favorite character to write for, why didn't she fight for keeping the character? Imagine how many great adventures we could have had with the character and a good author (which Golden actually is) who could come up with great stories for her favorite character.

I mean, I write some fan-fiction myself. If someone offered me a contract but the prize I would have to pay was to kill off Kes or some other favorite character, my reply would be "no way". In that case I rather write books about other subjects.
It was not Kirsten Beyer's decision to "kill off" Janeway. The Pocket people made that decision. Not Kirsten Beyer. Not even Peter David. The Pocket people decided to kill Janeway off. I haven't read Full Circle either but given some of the fan (over)reactions to the tome - and Ms Beyer's classy responses to those reactions - I almost feel obligated to check it out.

Following up this remark:

As regards the C/7 aspect of your comment, if the people who loved Janeway and hated her death have refused to buy the books anymore anyway then why should the editors care about their opinion for future storylines because they've said they won't be reading them. :confused:
I know I won't be reading another Voyager book by Christie Golden (unlike Lynx, I have little regard for her as an author) and the books generally have left me cold for some time now. But I agree with those who've said that the fanbase can't dictate what direction the books take. This thread demonstrates that, while there's a vocal Janeway / chuckles group out there, there are others who didn't see a thing between those characters beyond friendship. There are people who like Seven / chuckles, others who thought it was a rotten idea. The list goes on. Which group are the publishers supposed to listen to - the ones who yell loudest? They can't cater to everyone, nor should they. The books would end up being even more unreadable than some of them already are.
 
Janeway is DEAD. For now. DEAD DEAD DEAD. How much more can this be discussed? They killed her off. She's toast. FOR NOW. It's sci-fi, she'll be back. It wasn't a slap at a certain fan group. TPTB weren't sitting in their evil little conference room giggling over how pissed the fans were going to get. They killed her off to serve Trek's overall story post Nemesis. I haven't even read it yet. But I will. I wish I could have remained unspoiled about Janeway's death until I got to it, hence the reason I avoid the Trek Lit forum. However, it just wasn't in the cards to remain spoiler free on this matter apparently.

You want to know how I stand on the shipper business? Some already know that I loathe them. I don't give a fuck about J/7, J/C, C/7, N/Kim, or whatever. Ships suck. Period. They cause more problems. When I first started modding this forum there were no discussions about ships. Not because I banned discussion on them, people had just seemed to have moved on. The forum ran relatively smooth. Now we are back to discussing ships and pissing matches ensue. It's getting old. I don't like it. Take that for what you will.

This thread is not about Janeway's death or how the non canon Trek lit should go. There's a forum dedicated to that aspect of fandom. Go there. That tangent ends now. This thread is about Chakotay and Seven's pairing in the television show and what you thought about that. Non canon Trek Lit stuff need not apply.

Getting the thread back on topic. I didn't care one way or the other. I didn't watch Voyager for the lovey dovey stuff. Did it seem kind of forced? Yes. A Doctor/Seven pairing seemed more likely with all the time they spent together on screen.

Akiraprise, Grump
 
How do you C/7ers who have read Full Circle feel about the J/C stuff in it, and the way Chakotay staggered through a year of grief etc etc? Or J/C happening at all, Canon C/7 being finished in a previous book then suddenly Janeway being portrayed as the love of his life, that waffle at the beginning about her having won his heart, him never wavering from her etc etc?

Just wondered. If it had been the other way around experience shows a lot of J/Cers would be pretty cross! It's as if C/7 never happened, Beyer attempting to rewrite Canon, and as has been pointed out, some of you are pretty 'loyal and ardent fans' too.

kimc, I'll be over the pond for that beer pronto ;)
 
What's in the best interests of PocketBooks is to make money, and they've decided they have a particular best way of pursuing that. Compromising their storytelling because a specific minority group of fans is displeased is a terrible idea, because if they adopted that model they would never tell any stories.

Kestrel, you are right Pocket Books is in it to make money, that’s why the attitude that fans or even fan groups are not considered is so wrong. I don’t like this turn of the books, I have a right to not purchase the books, a right to broadcast everywhere that I am not buying the books and why.

In today’s market authors are expected to promote their books, they are expected to set up conversations and generate talk about their books however they can. They are expected to give interviews, to write blogs, encouraged to use twitter comments and yes to use message boards.

This is one of the places that authors are expected to be and so here I will be to voice my dislike. It’s called feedback and my feedback, no matter where, will be given. You may not agree or even like what I say but it’s my right and if I have a point I would be stupid not to say it wherever someone might have a feed.

The following is gleaned from a end of year issue of Publisher's Weekly:

“With bookstore sales falling the last four months of 2008, total sales for the year fell 0.5%, to $16.93 billion.”

“Bookstore sales were off 4.7% in December, an improvement over the 13.0% and 5.6% declines posted in November and October.”

“Sales for the 81 publishers that report their revenue to the Association of American Publishers fell 2.4%, to $10.6 billion, in 2008. . . The 13% decline in the adult hardcover segment was the result of a 5.3% drop in gross sales plus a steep 10.8% increase in returns.”

And for those that don’t know “returns” are the front page of a paperback book that is sent back to the publisher and deducted from the publisher’s invoice before it’s paid. The returns for 2008 for all publishers wiped out any profit that they hoped to make.

This is the reason that Janeway fans believe that Pocket Books and Margaret Clark in particular have a vendetta against them. In harsh economic times you don’t insure the sales of books by alienating any and I do mean any fans. If you don’t respect your core consumer then you are going to fail. And a good book is only a good book if it gets read.

My prediction is in the next few months Pocket Books will decide that “Trek Lit” is not making money and actually close down the line. At that point Trek literature will go back to its roots for a while and the only Trek written will be the very fan fiction that a lot of you hold up to ridicule. At some point, someone computer savvy person will see a way to make money producing trek lit in a digital form and the people on the cutting edge will again be the fic writers that are comfortable with digital publishing, have new innovations and know how to market or promote themselves in a digital era.

Today’s Trek Lit was born out of Original Series fan fiction, and because fan fiction is pretty much controlled by the various shippers (just like the original fan fiction of the 70’s). The shippers are the ones that will ultimately midwife the rebirth of Trek Lit.

And if you don’t think that this is possible, just go over to ESPAN http://espan-rwa.com/ and see the controversy brewing there between traditionally published books and digitally published books. Guys the times are changing.

One last reason, anyone can subscribe to feeds (that is the specialized search engines that crawl over the internet looking for “key words”. It is a marketing tool, it can be set to pull words or phrases out of the millions of board, blog, etc words posted, and pick up the URL’s. So if someone has subscribed and wants to see what is being said about a book for instance, they have the key phrase “Full Circle” entered and then they know where and what is being said. Tech savvy authors have continuous searches for their own names for instance.

The fate of any type of book now is in the hands of the “fans” that know how to use the technology avalible, and what is a good story will be decided by authors and fans and not some editor setting in an ivory tower using an outdated business model.

This is the very reason I am here. It is also the reason I generate negative feedback for “Full Circle” in a lot of different forums and blogs that are not connected to Trek at all. The feeds that run through “The Trek BBS” will show a different view point. It’s a way of making sure my voice is heard.

Akraprise, I’m sorry you don’t’ care for the shippers but truly we have as much right to be here as anyone else. This Board wouldn’t be here, the first Movie wouldn’t have been made if not for the fans, and the fans were finally heard because two women, Joan Winston and Jacqueline Lichtenberg found a voice through Penguin Books and managed to put a spotlight on the fandom, getting the attention of people with the power to make movies and books. If nothing else, Jacqueline Lichtenberg is the mother of the Trek shippers and her ship was Sarak/Amanda.

She is a tech savvy individual that actually gives not only writing tips (wonderful ones) but also teaches the uses of Blogs, interviews, and technology like Twitter. She will probably know about this post because she subscribes to searches on her own name.

Akraprise, I am a mod elsewhere, I know what “powers” you have. You can delete this post. You can lock this thread, or you can sever it at some point and start a new one.

One thing I do for you is create traffic; I create feedback, not just mine but others. If everything ran smoothly, people would have no reason to come here. You may be tired of the conversation but I personally think you are better off for it and that the BBS is better off because the shippers are here. If nothing else, we’ve got to be generating extra hits on your advertisers.

Brit
 
My prediction is in the next few months Pocket Books will decide that “Trek Lit” is not making money and actually close down the line. At that point Trek literature will go back to its roots for a while and the only Trek written will be the very fan fiction that a lot of you hold up to ridicule. At some point, someone computer savvy person will see a way to make money producing trek lit in a digital form and the people on the cutting edge will again be the fic writers that are comfortable with digital publishing, have new innovations and know how to market or promote themselves in a digital era.

:cardie::cardie::cardie:
:guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:

....

:brickwall::brickwall:
:sigh::sigh:


Anyway, back on topic. I thought I've heard that Robert Beltran was unhappy (to some extent) with the C/7 romance being more or less all he got to do in Endgame, to the point that it seemed like a surprise carrot to keep him happy. Am I misremembering? And do we know how Jeri Ryan felt about it?
 
Giving him a romance was half "Shut up Bob, Shut up Bob, Shut up Bob." and half "Look, we've been listening and this is a reward for all the bad faith we've dumped on you."

Jeri however is a pro and keeps her mouth shut, which is why she's still working.
 
Anyway, back on topic. I thought I've heard that Robert Beltran was unhappy (to some extent) with the C/7 romance being more or less all he got to do in Endgame, to the point that it seemed like a surprise carrot to keep him happy. Am I misremembering? And do we know how Jeri Ryan felt about it?

Beltran had argued for a C/7 friendship at the least all the way back to season 5. He felt that given Chakotay's experiences (including the destruction of his colony at the hands of the Cardassians), he'd be more sympathetic to Seven. And indeed, one of the scenes Jeri was given for her audition was a scene in which Chakotay helped Seven remember laughter. It was the scene that convinced her to take the role and it was cut from the script of whatever season 4 episode it was supposed to be in.

Jeri is fine with the relationship. Both she and Beltran complained that it was sprung on them at the last minute, that they could have played to a developing relationship during the season had they known. They felt there wasn't enough build up.

Even fans of the 'ship agree with that.
 
*SNIP*
Brit
I don't know where you mod at Brit but it is generally considered quite rude to blatantly continue an off topic conversation after a mod has requested it end. I would prefer not to have to use my "power" on you and as long as this tangent is dropped all will be well.
 
Giving him a romance was half "Shut up Bob, Shut up Bob, Shut up Bob." and half "Look, we've been listening and this is a reward for all the bad faith we've dumped on you."

Jeri however is a pro and keeps her mouth shut, which is why she's still working.

haha, I like that... "Shut up Bob, shut up Bob, shut up Bob..." Though now I'm imagining Bill Murray as Chakotay... :eek:

Beltran had argued for a C/7 friendship at the least all the way back to season 5. He felt that given Chakotay's experiences (including the destruction of his colony at the hands of the Cardassians), he'd be more sympathetic to Seven. And indeed, one of the scenes Jeri was given for her audition was a scene in which Chakotay helped Seven remember laughter. It was the scene that convinced her to take the role and it was cut from the script of whatever season 4 episode it was supposed to be in.

Jeri is fine with the relationship. Both she and Beltran complained that it was sprung on them at the last minute, that they could have played to a developing relationship during the season had they known. They felt there wasn't enough build up.

Even fans of the 'ship agree with that.

Oh man, I wish we could've gotten that scene, sounds like a wonderful little character moment. :sigh: And certainly can't fault either of them for wishing it could've been played up further.
 
So when they finally bothered to listen to a suggestion from Beltran after all those years, they did come up with that relationship, just out of nowhere with no chemistry at all between the characters and no build-up at all fo the scenario.

Fantastic!
 
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Well, genies from Arabian Kinghts or that monkey paw, they all just want to kill or/and torment the people demanding wishes of them.

I always thought Sab... No, that's Betwitched, Jeanie and her twin Sister Jeanie? Yes I always thought that Jeanies evil twin was just a little hotter, but do they share the same name like Dayrl and Dayrl from Newheart or like the Q?
 
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So when they finally bothered to listen to a suggestion from Beltran after all those years, they did come up with that relationship, just out of nowhere with no chemistry at all between the characters and no build-up at all fo the scenario.

Fantastic!

Welllll, it was mostly sprung, yes, but there was at least some seeds for it there. Such as the aforementioned scene that never made it to screen of Chakotay helping Seven remember laughter, "Human Error," and Beltran arguing early on that his character would be more sympathetic to her. I mean, it could've been worse... it could've been Samantha Wildman, which would've been absolutely out of the blue, or Harry Kim, which would be out of character for both of them. :p
 
actually Sam and Chuckles would have been excellent. It would explain why Neelix was always baby sitting, not that that hedgehog didn't want her too ( and they wouldn't wrestle for her?! or maybe Neelix had his own bit on the side and Chakotay, quid pro quo, had to make dinner a few times a month so that that Neelix can get down to business with his special lady. Actually, if Neelix ended up with Kathryn and they went to the same Key party as the Maquis Leader, well that would be the only way I could possibly imagine kathryn and Chakotay getting together.) and didn't think that all this selfless babysitting deserved some payback and lipservice, or one of them would say "What happens on Voyager stays on Voyager" since she had a husband waiting back on DS9, and best of all, bring back an old character to be treated fondly.

Killing Carey can't have been half as offensive as sacrificing Sam to the Indians dong?
 
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actually Sam and Chuckles would have been excellent. It would explain why Neelix was always baby sitting, not that that hedgehog didn't want her too ( and they wouldn't wrestle for her?! or maybe Neelix had his own bit on the side and Chakotay, quid pro quo, had to make dinner a few times a month so that that Neelix can get down to business with his special lady. Actually, if Neelix ended up with Kathryn and they went to the same Key party as the Maquis Leader, well that would be the only way I could possibly imagine kathryn and Chakotay getting together.) and didn't think that all this selfless babysitting deserved some payback and lipservice, or one of them would say "What happens on Voyager stays on Voyager" since she had a husband waiting back on DS9, and best of all, bring back an old character to be treated fondly.

Killing Carey can't have been half as offensive as sacrificing Sam to the Indians dong?

Because it needs to be said more often: Guy, I don't know if you're insane or brilliant, but I do know you should keep it up! :wtf: :eek: :D:beer:
 
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