Opinions about Trip and T'Pol

[commodore64]

I like Joseph Campbell a lot too, but having Luke Skywalker as this archetypal kind of hero doesn't mean that Han Solo ain't one as well.
In fact, to paraphrase Peter Jackson: "Most of us were Luke at heart, but we all really wanted to be Han Solo."

I think what he meant is -- we're all a bit dorky and innocent, but Han is cool. He gets to say the funny lines and be with the purdy girls. Han is a rogue. If you've read or seen Campbell, then you know: there are always archetypal heroes and then those who are helping the hero. Sure, they can be heroic, but the very nature of the hero is for the hero to have a journey, to overcome. Those who aren't are expendable - they don't have to grow or even continue living. I think, no matter your feelings about TATV, we've been shown Trip is not essential. Again, I'm using hero as Campbell would.

I beg your pardon? He was undoubtedly the most skillful and ingenious member of the crew. That's not even a matter of opinion.

Uhm, yeah. It is.

Arev (Syrran, whatever) didn't have much of a choice, did he? That katra was not something he earned.

No, but the writer did. By that I mean, there was a blank slate and they chose Archer to get the katra because he is the Campbell-type hero.

Wasn't that intentional? Weren't we supposed to feel sorry for him? By the end of that ep, Trip was officially the biggest loser in the universe.

Okay, so why did you think it was a great episode? Why do you think it showed adoration between Trip and T'Pol, so much so that Sussman is to be praised?

When I feel sorry for someone, I don't typically feel romantic. I felt Trip cared about T'Pol, but didn't feel she cared for him the same way. And I guess the reason I didn't like Home is I got tired of feeling Trip was the biggest loser in the universe instead of clever guy with a mission like he was in the first two seasons - a la my Trip thread.

 

[Mach5]

I think what he meant is -- we're all a bit dorky and innocent, but Han is cool. He gets to say the funny lines and be with the purdy girls. Han is a rogue. If you've read or seen Campbell, then you know: there are always archetypal heroes and then those who are helping the hero.

Hmmm, this is getting interesting, but there's a huge risk of hijacking the thread.
I think you may have misinterpreted Campbell or something. Saying that Solo was not essential is IMO kinda silly. This is the guy who's last second intervention saved the day in SW:ANH, the guy who led the rebels to victory on Endor in ROTJ and a guy who got the girl (sure, Leia is Luke's sister, but there's an interesting analogy in here: "A sibling is like your XO - off limits." )
And heroes do sometimes die at the end (Maximus, Neo, Hamlet, Jason the golden fleece dude, Achilles...)

Sure, they can be heroic, but the very nature of the hero is for the hero to have a journey, to overcome. Those who aren't are expendable - they don't have to grow or even continue living. I think, no matter your feelings about TATV, we've been shown Trip is not essential.

People usually reach for TATV when they deplete all of their arguments. But then again, I'm not sure I know anybody who references TATV, but you.
That's like referencing "Malleus Maleficarum" in an attempt to devalue women or something (I M H O)

Okay, so why did you think it was a great episode? Why do you think it showed adoration between Trip and T'Pol, so much so that Sussman is to be praised?

#1 - T'Pol brought Trip home - a completely unorthodox move for a Vulcan.
#2 - Trip/T'Les interaction - awesome. Outstanding chemistry.
#3 - The lava-field scene - T'Pol barely mustering strength to break the news
#4 - "The Kiss od Defiance" - nuff said
#5 - "What yee are about to witness..." then slow zoom-in on Trip's "There goes my one chance for happiness" expression.

When I feel sorry for someone, I don't typically feel romantic.

Didn't you feel sorry for the Moya-John? I most certainly did (poor fella all alone while his alter ego enjoys carnal bliss with Aeryn).

 

[lceb]

I suppose Commodore should create another thread about who and what is a hero and if the term can be applied on any of the characters of Enterprise.
About T/T'P I don't have much to add to what others have said about the subject. There are love affairs on almost every show but this is one of the few I cared about and for me it was one of the most important aspects of the story. I saw these two characters as complemetning and completing each other and, yes, I was happy that I saw sexual attraction between them because I believe it is essential in love.

 

[commodore64]

I suppose Commodore should create another thread about who and what is a hero and if the term can be applied on any of the characters of Enterprise.

I've already started a few threads. Feel free to do so. Maybe it's my tenure here, but I'm starting to feel like there's nothing left to talk about but Trip and T'Pol.

TATV. Mach5, boy, it's one thing to call me an old bag as you did in another thread and get away with it, but I think even you know when you're pushing good humor. It's hard for me to get offended, but I think you have succeeded. I betcha HR would really like for the pot shots to stop so she doesn't have to come in here. If she does, I think the thread will be closed or threatened to be closed. Also, if she comes in here to mod it means other people will likely be hurt in the process. So, let's attempt to be respectful, shall we? I mean, I fear even by telling you to watch it, as I did here, I'll be told to watch it. Modding for the mod is bad juju. Also, because people are getting angry the mod is more likely to be watching this thread and poised to punish folks. So in order for us both to stick around and live [post] another day, let's at least be nice. I use TATV because it's an episode. I thought the episode wasn't that bad, even if I didn't like parts of it. (I usually don't love every episode from beginning to end.)

On your comment about the Heroes Quest -- when the Hero's quest is over, he can die. At least, that's what Campbell indicates. I recommend you read/watch it. I think in this Hero's journey, Trip is a sidekick. Here's the info about sidekicks: http://www.apocprod.com/Pages/Hero/Hero_Diagram_Pages/helper.htm . Your word heroes applies to the Heroes friends and how they help him. Yes, Trip is a hero, but not the Hero.

On Home, interesting. You indicated it was the essential pick for their relationship. I'm still not sure I understand.

And on the two Johns -- they were both John. I liked actually the relationship that developed between non-Moya John and Aeryn, and felt like after that John died that it helped create the relationship between the other John and Aeryn. I mean, we never know who the "real" John is.

 

[pookha]

oh i think it could be argued that han also had his own hero's journey to undertake.
but to get away from campbell han is in a way a bogart character.
especially when considering casablanca and especially to have and have not.
new hope even have a scene that screams that it is a tribute to have and have not.
in both movies bogart is playing a character on the outside who has to transform to be heroic just in the same way han undergoes that transformation.
except of course in to have and have not bogart also gets the girl.


as for trip and tpol i grew up watching a lot of movies with the whole opposites attact theme.
and i think that was the start of being interested in watching trip and tpol.
they were opposites in some ways but similar in others.
they were both brillant (rewriting the physics to get the warp drive to function in the expanse just to start for trip)..
they were both curious.
i do regret we didnt get to see more of them actually as a couple dealing with and learning about the cultural differences.

in some ways trip reminded partly of amanda.
a very smart, empathic and still very emotional woman who loved and was loved by a vulcan.

 

[Penguin]

Back on Topic.

I believe the critical point in the Trip/T-Pol relationship came when T-Pol seduced Trip.

She had already broke Vulcan tradition by remaining on board Enterprise which caused the parents to break the bethrothal between her and Koss.

By Mating with Trip she again broke vulcan tradition and custom.

A big step for her.

I believe she viewed it as a mating, a comittment probably for life. Not a one night stand or casual sex.

Believe that Trip viewed it the same way a comitment and not a one night stand or casual sex.

I know this has been debated before on other boards and in other threads but I also think that T-Pol was a virgin when she came to Trip.

So for her she was mating with him and that would be somewhat like a vow of marriage.

She may have introduced Trip to her mother as my Mate commander Tucker.

Of course the writers had her welsh on it in the morning after scene which so pissed me that I almost put my foot through the TV screen.

Still the look Trip gave her when he said that they could continue the NP said volumes. It seemed to say continue the NP and the hanky panky.

the look she returned also seemed to say agreed continue the NP and the Hanky Panky.

Of course my imagination may be working overtime.

Whatever, that night she seduced trip they Mated which means a hell of a lot more than a quick roll in the hay.

AGain I thnk that neither
trip or t-Pol were into one night stands or casual sex. that if they entered a relationship with someone they would have intimate feelings for that person.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

I betcha HR would really like for the pot shots to stop so she doesn't have to come in here.

Too late. commie, Mach5, you have bolluxed up this thread but good. Happy now?

What, exactly, are your intentions? To have a discussion? To share differing opinions, in an effort to learn something from each other? You're not even communicating--neither of you seems remotely interested even in listening to each other. You're both too busy swinging your opposing opinions like clubs, trying to beat each other into submission. Do you think any of this is contributing to the thread? To the forum? To the community? Do you think the rest of us enjoy watching two deaf brick walls bash against each other?

[sorry for going off topic here, couldn't resist, Berman bashing is one of my favorite sports]

Hmmm, this is getting interesting, but there's a huge risk of hijacking the thread.

You think it's cute--or justified--to blow off the rules and deliberately derail a thread, just because you want to? It's not cute. It's disrespectful. Reveling in it doesn't help any. An unconvincing "sorry" won't cut it, either. Knock it off.

Sure, they can be heroic, but the very nature of the hero is for the hero to have a journey, to overcome. Those who aren't are expendable - they don't have to grow or even continue living. I think, no matter your feelings about TATV, we've been shown Trip is not essential.

People usually reach for TATV when they deplete all of their arguments. But then again, I'm not sure I know anybody who references TATV, but you.

That's like referencing "Malleus Maleficarum" in an attempt to devalue women or something (I M H O)

Attacking another poster because she has brought up an episode you don't like in order to illustrate her point isn't just rude. It's trollish. You were already cautioned here to refrain from making comments like this. If you do it again, you'll be given a warning for it.

I've already started a few threads. Feel free to do so. Maybe it's my tenure here, but I'm starting to feel like there's nothing left to talk about but Trip and T'Pol.

Have you considered starting threads that don't have "Trip" or "T'Pol" in the title? Have you considered refraining from posting in threads about Trip and T'Pol? There are five other regular cast members, several recurring characters, a crew of probably a hundred, 98 episodes. Costumes, cinematography, direction. Plots, themes, story structure. Pictures. Music. Surely you can come up with something to discuss, if you put your mind to it. If you don't want to talk about Trip and T'Pol, then DON'T.

I mean, I fear even by telling you to watch it, as I did here, I'll be told to watch it. Modding for the mod is bad juju.

Then why go ahead and do it? What are you trying to prove? Hit the NM button or zip it.

You're right. I'd rather not have to come in here and spank you two. You don't give me much choice, though. Be clear: this is not your own personal board to run roughshod over. Nor is it a battlefield. This is a public discussion forum. Agree to disagree, and GET OVER IT. If you can't figure out how to have a civil discussion in this forum, take your fight elsewhere-- to PM, or to TNZ, or to a WWF ring, I don't give a rip. Or put each other on Ignore and spare the rest of us. But whatever you do, grow the hell up.

And I strongly suggest you read this. Carefully.

I'm going to keep the thread open for now, because there are some posters who are clearly trying to contribute to it.

 

[commodore64]

Yes, ma'am.

 

[Middleman]

Back on Topic.
I believe the critical point in the Trip/T-Pol relationship came when T-Pol seduced Trip.
She had already broke Vulcan tradition by remaining on board Enterprise which caused the parents to break the betrothal between her and Koss.
By Mating with Trip she again broke vulcan tradition and custom.
A big step for her.
I believe she viewed it as a mating, a comittment probably for life. Not a one night stand or casual sex.
Believe that Trip viewed it the same way a comitment and not a one night stand or casual sex.
I know this has been debated before on other boards and in other threads but I also think that T-Pol was a virgin when she came to Trip.
So for her she was mating with him and that would be somewhat like a vow of marriage.
She may have introduced Trip to her mother as my Mate commander Tucker.
Of course the writers had her welsh on it in the morning after scene which so pissed me that I almost put my foot through the TV screen.
Still the look Trip gave her when he said that they could continue the NP said volumes. It seemed to say continue the NP and the hanky panky.
the look she returned also seemed to say agreed continue the NP and the Hanky Panky.
Of course my imagination may be working overtime.
Whatever, that night she seduced trip they Mated which means a hell of a lot more than a quick roll in the hay.
AGain I thnk that neither trip or t-Pol were into one night stands or casual sex. that if they entered a relationship with someone they would have intimate feelings for that person.

Once again I'm in agreement with you, particularly with the notion that Tucker was the first male (Human or Vulcan) that T'Pol had "mated" with (and no I'm not implying she was ever with a female). As far as we know, within their culture, Vulcans are to betroth to their mates at ayoung age. We also know T'Pol hardly ever saw Koss, much less has sex with him. So saying she was a virgin that night with Trip is not a stretch, in my opinion.

As far as your comment on T'Pol committing to Trip that night, I'm going to take your theory one step further. T'Pol made the decision to "mate" with Trip when she thought she was going to loose him to Amanda Cole. I think T'Pol's "mating" with Trip was an instinctual reaction to possibility of loosing him. By having sex with him, she initiated the mating bond and (excuse the expression) marked her territory permanently. After that night there was no going back for Trip (and that is one of the reasons why I discount TATV as a crock of horse crap).

Now in fairness to T'Pol's character I want to stress that she didn't do this consciously but instinctually and was not aware that she was even initiating a bond. Also, it was only after she was certain that Trip had feelings for her, after that little exchange during their NP session, that she dropped her robe and made love to him. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. I also believe there is a little bit of canon backing this up. There was a Voyager episode "Blood Fever" where something like this happened, only without the sex.

One more point. Hopefully I'm not being a master of the obvious, but the witting around Trip & T'Pol's relationship stunk; it was pretty bad. However, the concept was tremendous, the characters were wonderful and the actors had an on screen chemistry that was able slice right through the crap witting. That is why there are "legions of Trip and T'Pol fans out there" (Andy Mangels 2008) that can't get enough of their story.

 

[Nimthim]

One reason I am attracted to this relationship - and disgusted by some of the writing - is that is was truly the first onscreen chance at exploring in depth what could face a Vulcan/Human couple. And it was much in the spirit of Sarek/Amanda (and later brief glimpses of Vulcans attracted to other species) in that the human is overtly emotional. Remember Spock trying to understand why his father found all that emotion attractive, and Sarek answers 'it seemed logical at the time'? We've had decades of fan speculation about that, with interesting concepts that beat the hell out of some of the gak the writers gave Trip and T'Pol. Would have been interesting to understand how attraction to emotion becomes 'logical'.
Totally agree with your final paragraph, Middleman.

 

[Middleman]

One reason I am attracted to this relationship - and disgusted by some of the writing - is that is was truly the first onscreen chance at exploring in depth what could face a Vulcan/Human couple. And it was much in the spirit of Sarek/Amanda (and later brief glimpses of Vulcans attracted to other species) in that the human is overtly emotional. Remember Spock trying to understand why his father found all that emotion attractive, and Sarek answers 'it seemed logical at the time'? We've had decades of fan speculation about that, with interesting concepts that beat the hell out of some of the gak the writers gave Trip and T'Pol. Would have been interesting to understand how attraction to emotion becomes 'logical'.
Totally agree with your final paragraph, Middleman.

The opportunity to explore early Human / Vulcan relationships was horridly wasted in my opinion. Maybe if we had another 3 seasons they would have done something interesting, but unfortunately that didn't happen. I would have liked to have seen:

1. The bigotry issues explored more, both Vulcan and Human.
2. The issues of a committed inter-species couple working together on a Star Ship
3. T'Pol meeting Trip's parents and how they come to acceptance her (or not accept her)
4. A wedding and the public issues it creates.

All this would have been sub plots woven into three seasons of story lines, naturally. Those two actors playing those two characters could have made it an incredible story.

 

[SFRabid]

I thought they explored the bigotry issue quite a bit in season one with Archer/T'Pol. If they had done it again to a high degree with Trip/T'Pol then fans would have been screaming about a repeat of topics.

T'Pol never met his parents but he met her mother. They touched on the bigotry issue a bit from her angle and her acceptance of him as a possible mate for her daughter. They again touched on it from the side of the Vulcan's with Archer carrying the memories of their spiritual leader and how much they wanted it out of him.

 

[Middleman]

I thought they explored the bigotry issue quite a bit in season one with Archer/T'Pol. If they had done it again to a high degree with Trip/T'Pol then fans would have been screaming about a repeat of topics.

T'Pol never met his parents but he met her mother. They touched on the bigotry issue a bit from her angle and her acceptance of him as a possible mate for her daughter. They again touched on it from the side of the Vulcan's with Archer carrying the memories of their spiritual leader and how much they wanted it out of him.

I was thinking of a different kind of bigotry. Yes, the Vulcan / Human mistrust issues were explored but I was thinking more of the bigotry an inter-species couple would face in their lives together, beyond what was touched upon in Demons / Terra Prime.

Regarding Trip's parents I would have liked to have seen their reaction to a potential daughter-in-law who was not human. T'Les was Vulcan and her reaction was from a logical point of view, not necessarily emotional. Trips parents were human and by default emotional. Additionally they lost their daughter in the Xindi attack and their perspective of Vulcans and non-humans could have been interesting.

 

[TEH BABA]

Baltar and Six are the greatest scifi couple.

 

[lceb]

Another thing that I would have liked to see very much is how this bond between Trip and T'Pol evolves, how it manifests itself, what exactly is it's nature and how the two parts face it. It would a tool for better understanding and maybe, at the same time the cause of problems in the relationship.

 

[miriel68]

T'Pol made the decision to "mate" with Trip when she thought she was going to loose him to Amanda Cole. I think T'Pol's "mating" with Trip was an instinctual reaction to possibility of loosing him. By having sex with him, she initiated the mating bond and (excuse the expression) marked her territory permanently. After that night there was no going back for Trip

Well to explain T'Pol's decision in such a way seems a bit reductive to me. And how about her behaviour after that night? It seems to me, also, that in the writers intention it was yet a further stop to her becoming emotional - because of the use of drugs. We are (we were) supposed to wonder "what the hell is wrong with T'Pol", before discovering it finally in "Damage". After she gave in to temptation she is clearly ashamed of herself and this un-vulcanish behaviour and she tries to fight her attraction. This is not a bad idea for the development of the plot: sadly, in my opinion, it got lost in the 4th season.

 

[Mach5]

the actors had an on screen chemistry that was able slice right through the crap witting. That is why there are "legions of Trip and T'Pol fans out there" (Andy Mangels 2008) that can't get enough of their story.

from "Kobayashi Maru," Acknowledgements:

...Connor Trinneer and Jolene Blaylock, for breathing life into Charles Anthony “Trip” Tucker III and T’Pol in front of the cameras; the legions of Trip and T’Pol fans out there eager to see what the fates (and the authors) have in store for Star Trek’s most star-crossed couple.

I guess, somwhere along the way, while discussing the relaunch, Andy Mangels, Mike Martin and Margaret Clark decided that TnT was the way to go.
I consider this to be a no-brainer.

Regarding Trip's parents I would have liked to have seen their reaction to a potential daughter-in-law who was not human. T'Les was Vulcan and her reaction was from a logical point of view, not necessarily emotional.

Initially, T'Les' motivations were pretty selfish, she wanted T'Pol to marry Kos to exploit his family's influence, in order to get reinstated at the Science Academy, but also to wash off the disgrace her daughters pro-human actions caused her. At the end, T'Les seemed genuinely guilt ridden, because Trip definitely charmed her and changed her perception of Humans in general. I guess seeing Trip in her late husbands clothes struck a chord, as she realized how much she missed him, and how much this forced marriage would damage T'pol, if by some chance she had already bonded with this Human.

Trips parents were human and by default emotional. Additionally they lost their daughter in the Xindi attack and their perspective of Vulcans and non-humans could have been interesting.

Seeing their reaction to a potential non-Human daughter-in-law would have been really interesting, and somehow I doubt that the Tuckers would have objected to this relationship.

Another thing that I would have liked to see very much is how this bond between Trip and T'Pol evolves, how it manifests itself, what exactly is it's nature and how the two parts face it. It would a tool for better understanding and maybe, at the same time the cause of problems in the relationship.

The bond itself plays an important part in the relaunch novels, but it does feel like a stretch at times. But then again, I enjoyed reading about it because telepathy always intrigued me.

Baltar and Six are the greatest scifi couple.

Actually, if you ask me, those two ain't got nothing on Han & Leia!

 

[Penguin]

The Bond was another aspect of the Trip/T-Pol relationshi the writers fouled up.

Trip was on the columbia and T-Pol was on the enterprise somewhere in space. I am not sure how far away she was but it may have been a light year. Their minds connnected through the bbond and trip appeared in T-Pol's white Room which was in her mind.

One light year is quite a distance Billions peraps trillions of miles. A link like that would have been a very strong bond.

Of course we had the "Interruption" that writers love so much and the link was broken.

I wish that no interruptin had occured so the two could have continued in the white room.

Later in bound t-Pol tells Trip that it has long been believed that when vulcans MATE that there is a psychic bond created. Trip at first denies that they mated but finally agrees that there is a bond which means he also agrees that they mated.

The writers later have Trip complain about the bond in the Demons/Terra Prime arc.

Creating such a powerful bond that it could connect two minds over vast distances and then in bound t-Pol saying that the bond allows the two to sense thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc which would seem to downgrade the bond to a mere bond.

Then in the last episodes the bond is ignored completely escept for Trip's complaint.

Writers missed a Hell of an opportunity there. The possiblities of the bond were enormous.

The writing of the relatioonship was so damned bad that it had to be deliberate.

I have wondered for some time why in Hell the relationship was even introduced

 

[Middleman]

The writing of the relationship was so damned bad that it had to be deliberate.

I have wondered for some time why in Hell the relationship was even introduced

I don't think it was written bad deliberately, I think they were tip toeing around trying to preserve the sanctity of Spock and just screwed up in the process. In my opinion they introduced the Trip & T'Pol relationship because they realized the great combination these two characters were and the wonderful chemistry between the two actors. They knew that this relationship was going to sell.

 

[Mach5]

One light year is quite a distance, Billions perhaps trillions of miles. A link like that would have been a very strong bond.

Very strong indeed, since 1 light year equals:

• exactly 9,460,730,472,580.8 km (about 10 Pm)
• about 5,878,630,000,000 international miles

(Wikipedia)

The writers later have Trip complain about the bond in the Demons/Terra Prime arc.

Creating such a powerful bond that it could connect two minds over vast distances and then in bound t-Pol saying that the bond allows the two to sense thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc which would seem to downgrade the bond to a mere bond.

This is something that bothered me quite a bit while watching Demons for the first time. I mean, if this bond is so strong (end we have empirical evidence that it is), then why couldn't Trip sense that T'Pol wasn't lying about the baby? She was certainly able to sense his distrust.

Then in the last episodes the bond is ignored completely except for Trip's complaint.

That's probably because TATV was written way before all that season 4 buildup, and the B&B's were too lazy get their little TNG wankery in sync with Coto's stuff (Braga admitted himself that the finale didn't align creatively with the rest of the season).

Writers missed a Hell of an opportunity there. The possibilities of the bond were enormous.

Aren't the writers supposed to be the ones among us with fruitful imagination? But then again, complaining about writing got old ages ago.
It sucked, end of story.

I think they were tip toeing around trying to preserve the sanctity of Spock and just screwed up in the process.

Perhaps TPTB feared that exploring this Vulcan/Human coupling might somehow devalue Sarek & Amanda, who knows.
But the popularity of this particular TV couple, considering all the bad writing, is by itself something of a phenomenon.