You have a pointWell, there's really only like 15 or so Data episodes & even less romance ones I think. That's gonna skew the numbers in its favor a bit
Most folks here know it's not among their best, as far as I can tell
One thing I especially hate in "In Theory" ...
- Thread starter Skipper
- Start date
It may not be the best episode, but it is a milestone event for Data. First romance? That's a milestone for everyone.
Which is why I think they wrote it. They were always going to write that, whether they knew it or not, never mind how awful writing it might be lol
I agree that it was something that was going to be written sooner or later. I disagree that it was awful, though.
Data was learning about romance... he was not going to be great at it because it was his first. Exactly how many people got romance right on their first try? Nobody.
As for Jenna, I don't see how she was written badly. Men and women have both done exactly what she did... go on the rebound, being a bit confused on what they really want out of a relationship, or simply just went from one bad relationship to someone else else who wasn't really prepared for something like that.
Honestly, I think it was pretty realistic.
Data was learning about romance... he was not going to be great at it because it was his first. Exactly how many people got romance right on their first try? Nobody.
As for Jenna, I don't see how she was written badly. Men and women have both done exactly what she did... go on the rebound, being a bit confused on what they really want out of a relationship, or simply just went from one bad relationship to someone else else who wasn't really prepared for something like that.
Honestly, I think it was pretty realistic.
Well, maybe "awful" is a bit strong a word, but I have my issues with it myself too. It really does a lot of disservice to Data, which I mentioned some pages & many months ago lol
He leaves that episode terribly misrepresented IMHO, & worst of all, thinking those things about himself. So it might be realistic in that most people have their sense of self damaged when exiting a relationship, but someone in his friend circle would certainly have cleared that up for him. His close relations certainly DO matter to him in very substantial ways, and if she couldn't see that it needn't mean it was true
He leaves that episode terribly misrepresented IMHO, & worst of all, thinking those things about himself. So it might be realistic in that most people have their sense of self damaged when exiting a relationship, but someone in his friend circle would certainly have cleared that up for him. His close relations certainly DO matter to him in very substantial ways, and if she couldn't see that it needn't mean it was true
I don't know if "In Theory" is misogynistic; it's been awhile since I saw it and I have no desire to spend 43 minutes in a constant state of cringe. I can say that it's unpleasant to watch, and that Troi should be smacked upside the head for not just telling Data plain as pie that he had the romantic abilities of a carp.
My biggest issues:
- It is stated repeatedly throughout the episode that Data is incapable of demonstrating feelings of a romantic nature. Friendship yes. But not romance (which is different from friendship). It's exactly like wanting to have sex with an asexual. I think it would be an embarrassing experience for both parties.
- The only one to lose if it went badly would be Jenna. It is clear for Data that it is little more than a bizarre social experiment. There is an obvious imbalance between two parties involved.
- And why, why, why the hell did Data (in-universe) think that replicating the dynamics of a classic 1950s middle-class American relationship was the best approach? Yes, the narrative why is obvious. Americans love I Love Lucy where only the man has a job and any initiative by her to have any kind of career ends humiliatingly. So the writers of TNG thought it was GREAT FUN to replicate the same dynamics. But why did Data (as a character) think it was a good idea?
Well, it is (IMHO of course). One of the big problems is that everything seen through a purely masculine distorting lens. It's all seen through the stereotype (and Picard says it clearly in case we didn't get it) that "Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus." That is, what women want and desire is absolutely incomprehensible and unknowable by men, as if the former were truly of a different species. Coming from people of the 24th century it is quite disarming.
I don't buy that. If fact, my ongoing gripe has been that Data was done a major disservice at the end in being left to assume he has no place pursuing an intimate relationship with anyone human. Troi herself (In Data's Day) has contradicted that claim, by literally saying he has a lot to offer in a marriage. Data's self image is drastically undercut by this imho
In the context of the episode, that's exactly how it is. Data can do a bad simulation of a romantic relationship at best. Jenna wanted to start a relationship with a Japanese date sim.
Let's put it this way. Let's say you have an asexual friend. A wonderful and very nice person. A friend of hers (who knows perfectly well that she is asexual) asks her to have sex. Being kind, she wants to do him a favor and she thinks that by studying herself some porn movies and making the right verses at the right time she could do a good imitation of the sexual act.
Would you think that everything would be ok? Is the situation perfectly normal? That is it sustainable in the long run? That he made a very legitimate request? Or would you think there is something wrong? Of course they're two consenting adults, but I'm sure that would be a little weird. He would simply reduce her to a masturbatory aid.
That's exactly what happens on the show. No one sees anything strange in her wanting a romantic relationship with the equivalent of a Tamagochi or in him parodying a romantic partner. There can be no reciprocity in this relationship. But bizarrely no one points it out.
By the way, this is what Moore had to say on the episode:
“I loved the notion of Data involved with a woman who fell in love with him because it was sort of a callback to when The Original Series was on. There were so many women who were in love with Spock. So much of Leonard Nimoy’s fan mail was from women, women who were falling in love with this remote, inaccessible character with the idea that ‘I could touch his heart-I could get to Spock like no one else.’ I was fascinated by that aspect of fandom. So I thought, well, what if we did that with Data and there was a woman who fell in love with a man who literally doesn’t have a heart, who could not give her something emotional. I wanted to see that relationship crash on the rocks. I wanted to see the moment when she realizes that he really can’t give back to her what she wants.”
We can argue that it doesn't do the character justice, but in the context of the episode it's clear that Data is incapable of feelings of a romantic nature but Jenna wants them just the same.
“I loved the notion of Data involved with a woman who fell in love with him because it was sort of a callback to when The Original Series was on. There were so many women who were in love with Spock. So much of Leonard Nimoy’s fan mail was from women, women who were falling in love with this remote, inaccessible character with the idea that ‘I could touch his heart-I could get to Spock like no one else.’ I was fascinated by that aspect of fandom. So I thought, well, what if we did that with Data and there was a woman who fell in love with a man who literally doesn’t have a heart, who could not give her something emotional. I wanted to see that relationship crash on the rocks. I wanted to see the moment when she realizes that he really can’t give back to her what she wants.”
We can argue that it doesn't do the character justice, but in the context of the episode it's clear that Data is incapable of feelings of a romantic nature but Jenna wants them just the same.
If the former is true, then the latter doesn't mean shit.
Data wanted to explore the possibility of a "romantic" relationship. So did Jenna. They both were well-informed and neither went into it blind. It simply didn't work out in the end, as with so many relationships.
Should someone with an inability to show affection in a "normal" manner be barred from intimate relationships?
Should someone who becomes interested in a person with an inability to show affection be barred from pursuing a relationship with them?
Nobody wants to forbid anything to anyone. But if you ask me for advice as a friend, I give it. And nobody, nobody in the episode showed a single doubt. Even simply in the sense, "Data you're not human, so maybe it's not worth handling a romantic relationship like you're human. And definitely not like a human out of a 1950s sitcom" would have sufficed.
And let's realize the exceptionality of the thing. It would probably have been the first romantic relationship with an android in StarFleet. An android (Moore says it) incapable of romantic emotions. Why does everyone in the episode approach it from a human-centric point of view? If she tried a relationship with a Klingon or a Vulcan would they all act like he was the boy next door or would they advise some caution?
Why does everyone act as if this romance pantomime has any correlation with anything real even when it is repeated over and over again that Data could only be simulating at best? A bad simulation, given how he handled it?
Last edited:
Because on this show, Data is real. More over, his nature has been the focus of much deliberation, to the point that it should be evident that no one, least of all himself, knows his true potential.
When Data plans a memorial for his best friend Geordi, is he merely simulating? When he chooses to protect Julianna (his mom) from the truth, is that care just a simulation? When he saves & cherishes memorabilia of Tasha, is that a simulation?
He cares, he aspires, & yes, we should all be aware that he feels, in some manner less obvious to us, & even to himself. As such, he is a substantial person in the narrative, despite what is being said & his subsequent clumsiness. The subtext is what matters IMHO. I feel, like many, that you vastly undersell him
That seems to be the implication, especially with Troi being able to read emotions.
Not to intercede, but I think there's a huge conceptual difference between platonic and other relationship types, no pun intended.
On a similar level, if your pet dog/cat/bird/fish/snake/snail/emu/lemur/anemone/etc became sentient all of a sudden and then asked you to get romantic, would you say yes? Indeed, is sentience even a factor for romance and/or personal jollies, since when noting all of the old timey jokes that comedies (sci-fi or otherwise) did in school about lonely and bored sheepherders and all, eww... (or, rather, ewe?) Also, that's where some shiny new diseases get made from, too... how sentient are humans, at least in that regard?
At least machines don't transmit STDs, unless the previous user forgets to clean it afterward.
TNG characters (or the ones not named "Geordi") never did, since Data was threatened with being turned off and/or disassembled time and time again - not merely threatened to go do the brig in the way any of the crew would for when they engage in insubordination.
Are you looking for "Don't do it!" doubt, or "Don't treat this lightly" doubt? If it's the latter, Troi has your back.
Troi "I think you should be careful. This isn't just some experiment you're running, Data. Jenna is a living, breathing person with needs and feelings that have to be considered."
Data "Then you do not believe I should pursue this any further."
Troi "I didn't say that. I just want you to be aware that this is unlike any other more casual relationship that you've attempted."
Geordi also cautions him that it may not be a good idea, then allows that it might be okay, before admitting that his advice may not be what Data needs.
Should it be said then, that Data is worthy of friendship but not intimacy?
Data was incapable of intimacy as written in that particular episode. Given that he had genuine friendships, a very real bond with his cat, and a close father-child bond with Lal, and also that he valued his tryst with Tasha Yar... I think Data could have had a relationship with the right person, if the writers had so desired. Instead, we got "In Theory", which was megaton range cringe.
I don't even know that I'm on board with that entirely. That he did poorly at it on his 1st go is not a total condemnation of his ability to ever do it. He's not written as incapable. He's written as presently inept, which btw, he is at literally everything of human nature the 1st time.
Just from the above mentioned quote by the writer, you can tell the show is doing a disservice to him, because now & then it merely uses him as a plot contrivance of "Emotionless" rather than a whole character, but even in that circumstance, you still can't ignore the character as a whole imho.
Similar threads
