One thing I especially hate in "In Theory" ...

[Skipper]

How do you feel about the main characters being friends with a machine, with how they treat it as an equal?

He has proven time and time again that he can be a good friend. But he has never shown the ability to feel affection of a romantic nature. Even in real life there are people who can have true feelings of friendship and be totally aromantic (and asexual). And again, from IRL pov, the writers created something wich seems very similar to the stereotype of the "nice guy". One isn't entitled to a romantic/sexual relationship just because he is a decent person.

 

[Tosk]

But he has never shown the ability to feel affection of a romantic nature.

Nor did he claim to. On the contrary, he was extremely upfront with Jenna.

One isn't entitled to a romantic/sexual relationship just because he is a decent person.

Who said he was entitled to a relationship? I certainly didn't. But he is entitled to participate in one.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Yes, he wants to understands what it means to be "human" but he isn't equipped for that and all he can do is a bizarre romantic relationship pantomine ("Honey I'm home!" - "You're not my mother!"). So for him it's just an interesting experiment with no hurtful consequence for him.

Hard disagree. You’re framing it as an experiment, but Data went through that pantomime because he wanted the relationship to succeed. He wanted his partner to be happy.

I also disagree with a lack of hurtful consequence (in terms of himself). Data may not have emotions, but he’s capable of analysing events and wishing he’d done something in a different way. He’s capable of regret and he’s shown to form relationships with people and understand those relationships are special.

I imagine if for some reason La Forge was reassigned to another ship… Data would most likely react similarly on the surface to how he does when Jenna wrapped things up with him. I mean, he’d just say bye to Geordi and get on with his day. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t care, just that he tends to react to things in a totally different way to a regular person (which is largely the point of the character).

You make Data sound like a dispassionate scientist running Jenna around a maze to see how she’d react, but the story to me reads more like both of them being in the maze. He’s as lost as she is. The story is a tragedy for both of them. For Jenna’s part because she wants Data to be something he can’t be, and on Data’s part because he wants to be that thing for Jenna but can’t.

The only thing both parties involved are guilty of is their own separate naïveté.

 

[Mojochi]

Even in real life there are people who can have true feelings of friendship and be totally aromantic (and asexual).

And there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to have a coupling with one of those people, despite its unorthodox nature. Doing so should not relegate them to being considered wrong, or mentally disturbed enough to need therapy sessions. (Like you suggested about her needing counseling sessions from Troi, for considering a relationship with him)

IMHO, you're the one being misogynistic towards Jenna, by suggesting that she should only be in a relationship that conforms to your idea of what a sensible relationship for her should be. They are both entering into this relationship on equal grounds, honestly, & earnestly. Whether it works out or not, they are accepting Data's fantastical nature as a facet of it, from the start. You are not.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Whether it works out or not, they are accepting Data's fantastical nature as a facet of it, from the start. You are not.

And this is the crux of it. Any statement in relation to the episode which equates Data’s behaviour to how a human would behave misses the point that Data is by definition not a human.

Data isn’t running an experiment. He’s (naively) exploring the limits of his own self and in a sense, Jenna is exploring her own limits too.

 

[Oddish]

How do you feel about the main characters being friends with a machine, with how they treat it as an equal?

Good point. If you understand his limitations, Data could be a good friend. If your desires/expectations for a relationship did not require emotional capacity (and Jenna's did), he could be a good romantic partner, too. And if sex is your thing, he knows multiple techniques and presumably possesses unlimited stamina, he won't get a headache, and you won't get pregnant.

Who said he was entitled to a relationship? I certainly didn't. But he is entitled to participate in one.

True enough. And hindsight is 20/20.

 

[ThankQ]

Why the hell would Data think that the typical behavior of a 400-year-old culture, which lasted only a decade, in a single geographic area of the Earth, would have been the best choice in this situation? So why not behave like the Pilgrims just landed from the Mayflower? Or an 18th century caliph? Or simply, as a normal and well-adjusted modern human being?

Dude couldn't figure out a Crackerjack prize finger trap and once watched kettle come to boil over and over again wondering if something different would happen.

Data is what we call book smart, knowwhatImean?

 

[Jonathan Hayes]

Are you kidding? I know one thing: Data would be my beau ideal (pun intended). I've given this so much thought. It would take a while to adjust to someone who doesn't have emotions the same way I do, but I'd move past that quite quickly.

With Data, I know he'd never hurt me. He'd never have any type of ego or narcissism to deal with. If I don't understand something or can't get something right, he'd patiently help me to understand and teach me. No condescension. No derogatory remarks. I could be imperfect and never judged harshly for it.

He wouldn't need me to be funny or exciting. I could be boring at times and he wouldn't make a fuss. I'd never have to worry about him losing his interest in me or lose his attraction to me or wanting someone else. He'd be perfectly loyal.

His innate curiosity would mean he'd want to know more about my interests and learn more about them. He wouldn't see them as trivial or asinine.

I could have unconditional acceptance and be myself and possibly, in time, be valued for that. I'd never have to feel inadequate or insecure. I could just be at ease. Imagine having someone like that. That sounds like heaven. I could be my complete self.

 

[Orphalesion]

Are you kidding? I know one thing: Data would be my beau ideal (pun intended). I've given this so much thought. It would take a while to adjust to someone who doesn't have emotions the same way I do, but I'd move past that quite quickly.

With Data, I know he'd never hurt me. He'd never have any type of ego or narcissism to deal with. If I don't understand something or can't get something right, he'd patiently help me to understand and teach me. No condescension. No derogatory remarks. I could be imperfect and never judged harshly for it.

He wouldn't need me to be funny or exciting. I could be boring at times and he wouldn't make a fuss. I'd never have to worry about him losing his interest in me or lose his attraction to me or wanting someone else. He'd be perfectly loyal.

His innate curiosity would mean he'd want to know more about my interests and learn more about them. He wouldn't see them as trivial or asinine.

I could have unconditional acceptance and be myself and possibly, in time, be valued for that. I'd never have to feel inadequate or insecure. I could just be at ease. Imagine having someone like that. That sounds like heaven. I could be my complete self.

Agreed,
For similar reasons, I'd also say Data would make an awesome father.

 

[Herbert]

You may be overthinking this.

Once again, this should be the official motto of TrekBBS

 

[Farscape One]

Agreed,
For similar reasons, I'd also say Data would make an awesome father.

Also agreed, and agreed about him being a great dad.

Truthfully, he's a better human than a vast majority of the human race.

 

[Oddish]

Agreed,
For similar reasons, I'd also say Data MADE an awesome father.

FTFY.

 

[Mojochi]

Are you kidding? I know one thing: Data would be my beau ideal (pun intended). I've given this so much thought. It would take a while to adjust to someone who doesn't have emotions the same way I do, but I'd move past that quite quickly.

With Data, I know he'd never hurt me. He'd never have any type of ego or narcissism to deal with. If I don't understand something or can't get something right, he'd patiently help me to understand and teach me. No condescension. No derogatory remarks. I could be imperfect and never judged harshly for it.

He wouldn't need me to be funny or exciting. I could be boring at times and he wouldn't make a fuss. I'd never have to worry about him losing his interest in me or lose his attraction to me or wanting someone else. He'd be perfectly loyal.

His innate curiosity would mean he'd want to know more about my interests and learn more about them. He wouldn't see them as trivial or asinine.

I could have unconditional acceptance and be myself and possibly, in time, be valued for that. I'd never have to feel inadequate or insecure. I could just be at ease. Imagine having someone like that. That sounds like heaven. I could be my complete self.

I agree with all of this... Except that Data could never hurt you. Some of the deepest cutting burns ever spoken on that whole show have been delivered in the cold, heartless words of that android. I'm pretty sure he sent Dr. Kila Marr to the bloody funny farm with that line about her dead son being disappointed in her (even though likely true, & she surely deserved the gut check)

Now I guarantee that Data would never intentionally use his words to cause pain to someone, especially if he cared about them, but unintentionally? Picard's art appraisal begs to differ. You might have to have a thick skin with Data's honesty. He likely wouldn't totally break your heart, but he could easily miss the mark on social grace & hurt feelings... Maybe a lot

That said, I still think Jenna's claims about him are 100% wrong. People certainly do matter to him, truly matter... Enough to give his life for, ultimately

 

[fireproof78]

People certainly do matter to him, truly matter...

That much was apparent to me even on my attempted rewatch of TNG. "Ensigns of Command" has Data distracted by Picard's leaving during his performance.

 

[Oddish]

Data will tell you the plain unvarnished truth. If you can't handle that, he's not the man you want.

 

[Orphalesion]

The Dr. Kila Marr situation (as much as I personally agree with her destroying the crystalline entity) was very much a "Big Hero 6" situation though, where Dr.Marr had convinced herself that her son was living on in Data, when all Data really did was playing the entries of his audio diary.
Through that, even if it is somewhat understandable due to her being a grieving mother, she kinda set herself up to be hurt by Data. Really even if Data had the son's log entries saved and could do an analysis of them...he could never truly reveal how the dead boy would have reacted to his mother ruining her career to avenge him.

And as already pointed out, similar things can be said about D'Sora; she projected something unto Data he wasn't and then got upset when he didn't fulfil her dream image of him.

 

[Skipper]

While discussing this episode in another thread, I've noticed many here saying that Data did nothing wrong just because the script says so, not realizing how toxic his behavior was.

A great article on this episode that explains much better than I could what I want to say

“Men Who Hate Women”: In Theory

Oh no, not again.

I have to filet another Star Trek: The Next Generation sacred cow tonight. I hate doing this. But this one’s time is long, long overdue, ’cause “In Theory” is bad. Really bad. How bad? Well, in terms of gender, this is right down there in the same league as “Reunion”.

[...]

And it’s not just Jenna D’Sora and the female fans she was created to caricature: “In Theory” smears all women. We’re right back into the territory of “The Dauphin” and “Elaan of Troyius”, with various characters bemoaning how confusing, erratic and illogical women are. We’ve got Geordi hemming and hawing about whether or not D’Sora really is on the rebound, and Captain Picard happily telling Data he’ll “pass along any advice” on women to him “as soon as [he has] any”. And then Worf telling Data that Klingons “conquer what they desire”, but warning Data that, as her superior, he doesn’t want Jenna “mistreated”, as if Worf were Jenna’s daddy and she was his baby girl. The whole production has a sickeningly warped, stereotypical and tropish conception of femininity and gender roles-Even down to the whole idea that Jenna uniquely “needs” “something emotional”. Devastatingly, this is the precise sort of thing we would expect someone influenced by a proto-Nerd Culture to write.

But what might even be the most insulting thing of all about “In Theory” is that it’s hailed as a classic. And it’s not even because of the misogyny, which would be sad, if predictable. The thing is this isn’t even a story about Jenna D’Sora, not even in a kind of reactionary, anti-Mary Sue sense. This is read as a Data story, and hailed as a beloved classic because of how it supposedly furthers his exploration of humanity. Even Patrick Stewart, who makes his directorial debut here and is someone who should really, really know better, reads it this way. That in itself is pretty awful as it renders Jenna’s pain subservient to Data’s Epic Journey, just like the show did before with Tasha Yar: The show itself hides its blatantly ugly misogyny under the guise of a comparatively more tame variation of sexist narrative structure.

 

[Mojochi]

Thank god TNG could never otherwise be accused of being stereotypical or tropish. Frankly, I barely recall anyone who hailed this episode as a classic at all or ever. It's for the most part an all-around bore IMHO, & does disservice to pretty much every character in it, regardless of whatever any one specific point anybody wants to take offense to

Suggesting whether or not Data did anything wrong, (I'm not sure of what he'd be accused of) is not the same discussion as a total indictment of the show's premise & execution of said premise. I'm uncertain of the other thread's discussion, as to know where I might stand on it, but I'd hasten a guess it's hardly worthy of dredging up this over a year old topic for, but that just my opinion.

 

[Skipper]

Frankly, I barely recall anyone who hailed this episode as a classic at all or ever.

Of course it isn't BOBW , but googling it, usually it is put between "the top 10 Data episodes" or "top funnies episodes" or "top romantic" etc.

 

[Mojochi]

Well, there's really only like 15 or so Data episodes & even less romance ones I think. That's gonna skew the numbers in its favor a bit

Most folks here know it's not among their best, as far as I can tell