One thing I especially hate in "In Theory" ...

[Skipper]

Doesn't Data have the right to explore this aspect of being? He is sentient, after all.

Of course, he can do what he wants. I just don't know if it was ethically the right thing to do in this case because:

• It goes without saying that she will never reciprocate Jenna's feelings for him
• It is clear that all he can do is simply feed her delusions through an absurd pantomine that can only simulate a romantic feeling.

We have two option here: either Data is not sentient and not responsible for his actions and therefore Jenna is trying to have a relationship with a tamagochi, so her coworkers should be very worried about her. Or he is sentient and responsible for what she is doing and what he is doing is making fun of someone through a grotesque parody of feelings he doesn't have. And this could end in only two ways:

• He is an enabler for ever of her delusions
• He'll inevitably hurt her

But for whatever reason they made Data the tragic hero of this story.

 

[Tosk]

Jenna is a woman who is fully capable of making her own decisions. Data made it clear to her that he cannot reciprocate her human emotions, and she still lists several ways in which she finds him to be the perfect man. (And he is a man, they measured him three seasons earlier. ) He does the things that "truly matter" to her. So Data decides to explore the situation with a mature, fully informed partner. In the end, it turns out that she does in fact need more from him than he is capable of providing. Recognizing this, she ends the relationship.

What a horrific situation.

 

[Farscape One]

It is tragic for Data, because he couldn't experience the emotions.

I think people are being unfair to Data. He clearly does everything he can think of to make her feel good in the relationship. Jemna even said so herself when tells him about the various things he does for her, and that was before they even became a couple.

Maybe he couldn't fully understand the emotional aspect of being in a relationship, but give the man a break! He was doing the best he could... which, frankly, is all any of us can do.

It's really ridiculous to paint Data as a villain here.

 

[Oddish]

Data was able to emulate many aspects of human relationship. Kitty daddy to Spot, close friend to Geordi, mentor figure to Timothy, father to Lal. That he could not manage human romance is unfortunate, but there was certainly no malice involved.

 

[Mojochi]

And let's remember, the only one who had to lose in this story was her.

If you mean she was the only one who had anything to lose in this, I very much disagree, & will cite below my major grievance with this episode as the reason why.

And really Data wasn't just "someone that isn't right " for her, is a machine that can't even fit in the human concept of romantic relationship

I think you're drastically underselling Data, & my main gripe about this story is that she is underselling him as well. Data has nothing to lose in this? I'd argue Data has much more at stake in this than she does. To her, this is just a few weeks of a not too serious romance, not even a chapter in her life, almost forgettable really. To Data, this begins as his 1st experience in long term romantic intimacy, which could shape his perspective greatly, & it ends with her rejecting him under the claim that she doesn't truly matter to him, which we all know is just not true, & he comes away from this tragically thinking he has nothing to offer in a relationship

Your argument smacks of the some here that want to label Data as not a real person, not sentient/sapient, not deserving of serving in Starfleet on those grounds, not deserving of the same liberties as everyone else... basically just a piece of mechanical hardware. What show have you been watching, I wonder? They tirelessly dispute all of that, continuously over the course of 7 years. It's literally one of the biggest character arcs on the whole show.

Data is not the android you think he is. He's the android they tell/show you he is, & that fictional android was designed to have emotions just like the others of his kind. He maintains close relationships with people already, & many of them understand that he is just as real in his life as they are. Even Troi herself has told Data in Data's Day that he would have much to offer someone in a marriage. Well, how else is something like that ever going to take form than like this?

Data can't be invested in someone on a personal level? Tell that to Geordi. The death of Geordi, the loss of his friendship, the absence of his presence, would be undoubtedly experienced by Data, even more than we already see he is affected by the loss of Tasha, who he knew far less, & he could easily be just as invested in someone else

Jenna's problem with Data is that he's not the right fit for her. He isn't emotive enough, which is fair, & reason enough to end things, but she framed it much more detrimentally imho.

I can't even follow the whole Data+Jenna = Nice guy fantasy thing. Data is a non-human. None of that applies. Star Trek explores non-humans in all manners of ways, & a lot of them are just as odd for it, Worf, Odo, the Doctor, Spock. These characters don't act in realistic ways. You have to suspend some disbelief into the premise they are using imho

 

[matthunter]

Data is underselling himself with the "cannot reciprocate" line. He clearly DOES experience attachment to others - he can't really put it into an emotional response but he knows Tasha was "special" to him, and given time he might have considered Jenna the same way (it's no coincidence she's similar in appearance to Yar, or that he also had a strong (for him) response to Ishara Yar).

The incel/nice guy stuff is a misdirection. Data has no expectation that he deserves a relationship for being a friend, nor would he be disappointed if she showed no such interest. Her rebounding onto him because he reminds her of her ex has some unfortunate connotations, but primarily incels/nice guys think girls are going to pick them because they are DIFFERENT to their previous partners (who tend to be genuinely or seen as "bad guys").

 

[Richard S. Ta]

No disrespect intended, but I think the premise of this thread is a little bit silly.

 

[Oddish]

Yes, probably. But, it's created broader discussions about our like/dislike for the episode, and Data's suitability as a romantic partner.

 

[matthunter]

Side note - I'm curious how Data processes memories from before getting the emotion chip. Do they create the same emotions they would as if he'd had the chip all along, or are they more like watching a movie of his life and only sparking the same responses we might have to watching such?

 

[Mojochi]

Side note - I'm curious how Data processes memories from before getting the emotion chip. Do they create the same emotions they would as if he'd had the chip all along, or are they more like watching a movie of his life and only sparking the same responses we might have to watching such?

I've always imagined him experiencing connected feelings of past events, for having been there, or what would Soong's point have been really, in making him go so long without them, if he couldn't connect to his life in a realistic way, once he got them. The point seemed to be for him to evolve in ways before he could have them, & what would that development be worth, if it wasn't something he could connect to in a real way?

I like to think when he got that chip & thought about Lal, he genuinely had a good cry about her loss, or similarly feels love & loss over Soong himself... or when he thinks about Lore, even though he might know it was necessary, he still feels guilty about what he had to do.

 

[Skipper]

Ok, before we continue, maybe it's best to give some background on this episode.

let's writer Ronald D. Moore explain himself in his own words.

“I loved the notion of Data involved with a woman who fell in love with him because it was sort of a callback to when The Original Series was on. There were so many women who were in love with Spock. So much of Leonard Nimoy’s fan mail was from women, women who were falling in love with this remote, inaccessible character with the idea that ‘I could touch his heart-I could get to Spock like no one else.’ I was fascinated by that aspect of fandom. So I thought, well, what if we did that with Data and there was a woman who fell in love with a man who literally doesn’t have a heart, who could not give her something emotional. I wanted to see that relationship crash on the rocks. I wanted to see the moment when she realizes that he really can’t give back to her what she wants.”

So, the author's intent is clear: to portray his idea of this infatuated Data fandom through the character of Jenna and enjoy the moment when its heart breaks. And, like I said, how Moore depicts these people?

Jenna D’Sora is every single bro-ish stereotype of “clingy women” rolled into one: She’s vapid, shallow, air-headed and programatically dedicated to a man who doesn’t care about her in the face of all sense and reason. She’s even “on the rebound”.

The incel/nice guy stuff is a misdirection. Data has no expectation that he deserves a relationship for being a friend, nor would he be disappointed if she showed no such interest. Her rebounding onto him because he reminds her of her ex has some unfortunate connotations, but primarily incels/nice guys think girls are going to pick them because they are DIFFERENT to their previous partners (who tend to be genuinely or seen as "bad guys").

Ok, this episode isn't exactly a documentary . In real life incels/Nice guys have expectations, but this episode is of course a writer's fantasy. And in this "ideal world", a girl is "naturally" attracted to the nice guy without the nice guy needing any expectations.

It is tragic for Data, because he couldn't experience the emotions.

It's tragic for us because as viewers we are fond of Data, but it is clear that for him this was just a curious experience.

It's really ridiculous to paint Data as a villain here.

It's clear that in episode's context he is the hero because obviously the author/demiurge represented him so. And obviously in the narrative universe he has done nothing wrong, because the moral paradigm of this universe reflects that of the author who wrote the episode. The problem is when you look at his actions from a broader moral paradigm.

Suppose I have a dear friend who I am fond of. It is clear that I have no feelings of a romantic nature for her. This friend has had various relationships that have ended badly and offers me to start one with her because she thinks she has fallen in love with me, even though it is clear that I cannot reciprocate her feelings for me. If I start the relationship with her, pretending to have feelings I don't have, in some kind of romantic relationship pantomine, I'm morally wrong, because I'm lying to her. But if for some mysterious reason Data does it, then it's okay. In reality, the reason is not mysterious. It's ok because the writers tell us it's ok, exactly as they told us Geordi's gaslightining towards Leah Brahms in "Galaxy's Child" was ok.

And then there is the asexual approach to the two's courtship. Much of this episode plays like a couple of elementary school kids playing at dating, as opposed to two supposed adults. This makes a certain amount of sense for Data, but Jenna has supposedly been in adult relationships before. If everyone is so egalitarian about sex in the future, what's the problem? And she certainly had no problem kissing him. And now they act like two 16-year-olds in the 50s waiting for the "right time"?

 

[Skipper]

And by the way, I know that naming The Orville around here is a kind of faux paux, but there they depicted a romantic relationship between a robot and a human being wayyyyyyyy better than in this episode.

 

[Oddish]

But if for some mysterious reason Data does it, then it's okay. In reality, the reason is not mysterious. It's ok because the writers tell us it's ok, exactly as they told us Geordi's gaslightining towards Leah Brahms in "Galaxy's Child" was ok.

That was pure, vicious character assassination directed at Geordi.

Regarding Data, in hindsight, the worst mistake was made (I think) by the people Data asked for advice. Guinan copped out, Geordi copped out, Deanna waffled a bit too much, and Riker basically made the excuse that it was Jenna's idea. Worf at least showed concern for her in his Worf-ish way. Deanna especially should have understood that Data had no feelings, and this probably wasn't going to go anywhere good.

 

[Skipper]

Regarding Data, in hindsight, the worst mistake was made (I think) by the people Data asked for advice. Guinan copped out, Geordi copped out, Deanna waffled a bit too much, and Riker basically made the excuse that it was Jenna's idea. Worf at least showed concern for her in his Worf-ish way. Deanna especially should have understood that Data had no feelings, and this probably wasn't going to go anywhere good.

I absolutely agree with this. They all acted like it was totally normal for a woman to want a romantic relationship with Data. This has literally never happened before, so a little caution wouldn't hurt. But even if the implication is that in the future they are all incredibly tolerant and there is nothing wrong with a relationship with a machine, why does everyone expect Data to fit into a human-centric view of how to handle something like this?

 

[Tosk]

a little caution wouldn't hurt [...] why does everyone expect Data to fit into a human-centric view of how to handle something like this?

Worf doesn't expect that. And Troi does caution him.

But generally speaking, because they are his friends. He asks, they answer honestly. And why not? They all have a relationship with Data, they know who he is and what he wishes to become. He comes to them to hear what they think, not some theoretical 'what if I didn't approach this like a human' idea. Jenna is a human, and Data dreams of being one. It's hardly odd to approach it from than angle.

It always amused me that their approaches are pretty much exactly what you'd expect, knowing what they are like.

La Forge doesn't trust his own instincts with women, so he defers.
Troi cautions Data that this relationship may be more complex than any he has had before.
Worf simply warns Data to treat Jenna with care.
Riker tells him to hit that shit, yo.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Suppose I have a dear friend who I am fond of. It is clear that I have no feelings of a romantic nature for her. This friend has had various relationships that have ended badly and offers me to start one with her because she thinks she has fallen in love with me, even though it is clear that I cannot reciprocate her feelings for me. If I start the relationship with her, pretending to have feelings I don't have, in some kind of romantic relationship pantomine, I'm morally wrong, because I'm lying to her.

The comparison falls down here because Data isn’t pretending to have feelings. He’s coming at the situation from the point of trying to understand what feelings are. Data isn’t lying, even unconsciously. He’s attempting to learn, which is his thing.

No comparison between a human beings’ motivations and Data’s can really hold water because Data as a character is quite unique to Star Trek. He has a perspective and motivations that no other character does.

 

[Skipper]

The comparison falls down here because Data isn’t pretending to have feelings. He’s coming at the situation from the point of trying to understand what feelings are. Data isn’t lying, even unconsciously. He’s attempting to learn, which is his thing.

No comparison between a human beings’ motivations and Data’s can really hold water because Data as a character is quite unique to Star Trek. He has a perspective and motivations that no other character does.

He tries to mimic sentiments and feelings that he clearly doesn't, well, feels. Yes, he wants to understands what it means to be "human" but he isn't equipped for that and all he can do is a bizarre romantic relationship pantomine ("Honey I'm home!" - "You're not my mother!"). So for him it's just an interesting experiment with no hurtful consequence for him. We can't say the same for Jenna. Sure, we can say that she is a responsible adult and if she is okay with something that parrots a romantic partner, that's her business. But still she was hurt and this result was absolutely predictable. Besides, she came from bad relationships and we can perhaps assume that hers was not a very lucid choice. Which is also pretty clear, because she wanted to start a romantic relationship with a machine. Even in real life, in the same situation, before starting a relationship I would make sure my partner has serious feelings for me and is not just desperate to be in a relationship with someone who is at least decent in her eyes.

 

[Oddish]

Maybe Jenna just liked having Data clean her quarters. After their "relationship" ended, she replicated a Roomba, got a puppy (perfect source of demonstrative and unconditional love), and lived happily ever after.

 

[Skipper]

Maybe Jenna just liked having Data clean her quarters. After their "relationship" ended, she replicated a Roomba, got a puppy (perfect source of demonstrative and unconditional love), and lived happily ever after.

Now this is canon for me!

 

[Tosk]

we can perhaps assume that hers was not a very lucid choice. Which is also pretty clear, because she wanted to start a romantic relationship with a machine.

How do you feel about the main characters being friends with a machine, with how they treat it as an equal?