"...one crew, a Starfleet crew." Really...WHY?

[Sci]

People don't just fall apart and give up on every shred of morality just because they're in a rough situation, despite what NuBSG tells us.

BSG said nothing of the sort.

As for Voyager, I'm always surprised when people express disappointment over the lack of Maquis-tension throughout the series. Did these people even watch the first episode? Realistic or no, Voyager ended up being very true to that speech in Caretaker.

My problems with VOY begin with "Caretaker."

Simply put, I don't recognize Janeway as having the legitimate right to press the Maquis into Starfleet service.

About 1/3rd of Voyager's crew died during transport to the Delta Quadrant. The Maquis who came aboard after sacrificing their vessel to save Voyager and the Ocampa took up the dead third's positions.

In other words, the Starfleeters needed the Maquis to serve as crewmembers to get home, and the Maquis needed the Starfleeters to get home.

As a result, neither side should have been given power over the other. Voyager should have been run as a joint Starfleet-Maquis vessel, with an ad hoc command structure negotiated by Janeway & Tuvok on one side and Chakotay and B'Elanna on the other. The chain of command on Voyager should have been completely different, should have borne no resemblance to anything we'd seen on Star Trek before. Chakotay should have been a much more powerful figure -- a co-captain, or at least a sort of "Vice President" figure with veto power.

Janeway should never have been able to just rely on Starfleet ranks for authority, because Chakotay should always have been willing to say, "We're not part of Starfleet, and if you try to run roughshod over us, the Maquis will leave and then neither of us are getting home. Treat us like equals or we all lose."

And frankly, that would have been a lot closer to Federation values and ideals than forcing a group of people who had legitimate grievances against the Federation government to serve in its military or be stranded on the other side of the galaxy. What VOY depicted was not the triumph of Federation values -- it was the triumph of ethnocentrism and conscription over egalitarianism.

 

[Anwar]

Trek has shown that over time, every enemy becomes either a non-enemy at worst or an ally at best. It would've made no sense for the Maquis to be that hostile to them for the entire series. It just would've been stupid.

As for Janeway's right, it was her ship and they were criminals. Her right was to throw them all in the brig, but instead she showed the incredible mercy of not locking them up and letting them work on the ship as any other.

 

[Thestral]

As a result, neither side should have been given power over the other. Voyager should have been run as a joint Starfleet-Maquis vessel, with an ad hoc command structure negotiated by Janeway & Tuvok on one side and Chakotay and B'Elanna on the other. The chain of command on Voyager should have been completely different, should have borne no resemblance to anything we'd seen on Star Trek before. Chakotay should have been a much more powerful figure -- a co-captain, or at least a sort of "Vice President" figure with veto power.

Janeway should never have been able to just rely on Starfleet ranks for authority, because Chakotay should always have been willing to say, "We're not part of Starfleet, and if you try to run roughshod over us, the Maquis will leave and then neither of us are getting home. Treat us like equals or we all lose."

Which is well and good when you're talking about running a society and making long-term decisions. But in a crisis situation when decisions have to be made immediately (combat being but one example) somebody has to have authority, somebody has to make the call. That's why it's called the chain of command, and had the writers given Chakotay more of a spine (as they briefly did in Scorpion), perhaps things would have been run more as a joint venture.

Of course, who knows what would have happened when Equinox came along...

As for Janeway's right, it was her ship and they were criminals. Her right was to throw them all in the brig, but instead she showed the incredible mercy of not locking them up and letting them work on the ship as any other.

Because that would've been really effective at getting them back home, a significant group of people locked away, draining resources and not contributing and requiring guards, while Voyager is already operating at 2/3 strength. The decision in Caretaker was as much about pragmatism as it was about mercy, but it was the right decision (if perhaps not rightly implemented by requiring all Maquis to "enlist").

 

[kimc]

Because that would've been really effective at getting them back home, a significant group of people locked away, draining resources and not contributing and requiring guards, while Voyager is already operating at 2/3 strength. The decision in Caretaker was as much about pragmatism as it was about mercy, but it was the right decision (if perhaps not rightly implemented by requiring all Maquis to "enlist").

Like it or not Janeway being the captain means she gets to make the call. She did not have to work with Chakotay but when he sacrificed his ship he showed the ability to see the larger picture.

If circumstances had been reversed and they had ended up on Chakotay's ship he would have made the calls. In fact, there's a ton of fanfic out there regarding that scenario if anyone is interested.

 

[Sci]

As for Janeway's right, it was her ship and they were criminals.

No, they were revolutionaries fighting two governments that had violated their natural rights.

Her right was to throw them all in the brig, but instead she showed the incredible mercy of not locking them up and letting them work on the ship as any other.

That's not incredible mercy. She needed them. Had they all been thrown into the brigs, Voyager would never have gotten home.

As a result, neither side should have been given power over the other. Voyager should have been run as a joint Starfleet-Maquis vessel, with an ad hoc command structure negotiated by Janeway & Tuvok on one side and Chakotay and B'Elanna on the other. The chain of command on Voyager should have been completely different, should have borne no resemblance to anything we'd seen on Star Trek before. Chakotay should have been a much more powerful figure -- a co-captain, or at least a sort of "Vice President" figure with veto power.

Janeway should never have been able to just rely on Starfleet ranks for authority, because Chakotay should always have been willing to say, "We're not part of Starfleet, and if you try to run roughshod over us, the Maquis will leave and then neither of us are getting home. Treat us like equals or we all lose."

Which is well and good when you're talking about running a society and making long-term decisions.

Which is exactly what they were doing. I mean, a single starship trying to reach the other side of the galaxy for seventy-five years? You are talking about creating and running a small, self-sustaining society.

But in a crisis situation when decisions have to be made immediately (combat being but one example) somebody has to have authority, somebody has to make the call.

Sure, and no one's contesting that. But that's another example of an issue that should have been negotiated between Chakotay and Janeway instead of just being, "She's the captain" and that's that.

Like it or not Janeway being the captain means she gets to make the call.

Why? Because that's how it was done in the Alpha Quadrant? Starfleet thought they were dead and Voyager destroyed. Why should they follow Starfleet regulations in a situation like that?

And, again, why should the Maquis submit to Starfleet's system of control when the Starfleet crew needed them to get home? Why should the Maquis be called upon to make all the concessions to Starfleet and Starfleet make no concessions to the Maquis?

If circumstances had been reversed and they had ended up on Chakotay's ship he would have made the calls.

To which I say again, why? Why should Starfleet make all the concessions to the Maquis when the Maquis needs them to get back home?

 

[kipron]

People don't just fall apart and give up on every shred of morality just because they're in a rough situation, despite what NuBSG tells us.

BSG said nothing of the sort.

As for Voyager, I'm always surprised when people express disappointment over the lack of Maquis-tension throughout the series. Did these people even watch the first episode? Realistic or no, Voyager ended up being very true to that speech in Caretaker.

My problems with VOY begin with "Caretaker."

Simply put, I don't recognize Janeway as having the legitimate right to press the Maquis into Starfleet service.

Well that is certainly your right.

With regards to this thread, my only concern is whether the issue was dealt consistently within Voyager itself, which it was.

 

[Anwar]

No, they were revolutionaries fighting two governments that had violated their natural rights.

One man's revolutionary is another man's terrorist AKA a criminal. Which is what the Maquis were. They committed terrorist/criminal acts.

That's not incredible mercy. She needed them. Had they all been thrown into the brigs, Voyager would never have gotten home.

Sure they would have, just slower and less efficiently. We've seen ships run by less than VOY's crew complement. They most definately did not NEED those extra dozen or so people, they just made it more up-to-standard.

Which is exactly what they were doing. I mean, a single starship trying to reach the other side of the galaxy for seventy-five years? You are talking about creating and running a small, self-sustaining society.

Other ships had gotten lost further out than that and made it back in less time. No reason for the crew to assume it really would be the full 75 years when they know worse has happened to others who made it back.

Sure, and no one's contesting that. But that's another example of an issue that should have been negotiated between Chakotay and Janeway instead of just being, "She's the captain" and that's that.

You don't have time to "negotiate" what to do in the middle of a firefight, you need someone already at their job giving the commands and orders the whole way through.

Like it or not Janeway being the captain means she gets to make the call.

Why? Because that's how it was done in the Alpha Quadrant? Starfleet thought they were dead and Voyager destroyed. Why should they follow Starfleet regulations in a situation like that?

Cause it's a Fleet ship, run by mostly Fleet people, and the Fleet way is ABOUT extended deep space travel far from home. The Maquis way is NOT.

And, again, why should the Maquis submit to Starfleet's system of control when the Starfleet crew needed them to get home?

Other way around, they needed the Fleeters because the Fleeters outnumbered them, it was their ship, and they were at the disadvantage.

Why should the Maquis be called upon to make all the concessions to Starfleet and Starfleet make no concessions to the Maquis?

You've said this before without describing what kind of concessions they'd give. Putting too many Maquis in charge of too many important things is a recipe for a takeover.

To which I say again, why? Why should Starfleet make all the concessions to the Maquis when the Maquis needs them to get back home?

If it was the opposite they'd still have to adopt more Fleet ways because Fleet is better prepared about their predicament than the Maquis are.

 

[Thestral]

As for Janeway's right, it was her ship and they were criminals.

No, they were revolutionaries fighting two governments that had violated their natural rights.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. The British government had every right to label the Founding Fathers criminals, terrorists, and traitors as well.

Besides, you're being a bit hyperbolic here... what "natural rights" are you referring to?

Which is exactly what they were doing. I mean, a single starship trying to reach the other side of the galaxy for seventy-five years? You are talking about creating and running a small, self-sustaining society.

Umm... err... I agree? That was mostly a setup for the following point, after all.

Sure, and no one's contesting that. But that's another example of an issue that should have been negotiated between Chakotay and Janeway instead of just being, "She's the captain" and that's that.

And it was negotiated at the beginning of the show, when Chakotay decided Janeway's greater command experience suggested she should have authority in those situations. Which then turned into "She's the captain and that's that" because the chain of command had been established and the Maquis followed Chakotay's lead.

That's not incredible mercy. She needed them. Had they all been thrown into the brigs, Voyager would never have gotten home.

Sure they would have, just slower and less efficiently. We've seen ships run by less than VOY's crew complement. They most definately did not NEED those extra dozen or so people, they just made it more up-to-standard.

Much slower, much less efficiently. Especially when you're transporting a significant number of prisoners, using resources to feed them and not getting the benefit of their expertise and dedicating some of your remaining significantly under-strength crew to guarding them. And what, you're just going to leave them in the brig to rot for 75 years, force them to life in prison? What if your descendants thing they should be let free?

Other ships had gotten lost further out than that and made it back in less time. No reason for the crew to assume it really would be the full 75 years when they know worse has happened to others who made it back.

That's a terrible argument because it's based on assuming that godlike or deus ex machina forces would become involved. It's absolutely a good reason to assume it would be the full 75 years, and there are indications early on that this is exactly what the blended crew are expecting.

Other way around, they needed the Fleeters because the Fleeters outnumbered them, it was their ship, and they were at the disadvantage.

That's your argument? There's more of us than there are of you, and you're on our turf? Wow... let's hear it for wonderful "Federation values."

Putting too many Maquis in charge of too many important things is a recipe for a takeover.

Wow. Way to trust in the goodness of your fellow people. Why assume hostility, and why assume a Maquis "takeover" would end poorly?

If it was the opposite they'd still have to adopt more Fleet ways because Fleet is better prepared about their predicament than the Maquis are.

Funny, because I could make the opposite argument, that the Maquis are much better prepared for surviving on less, being a small band relatively helpless in hostile space, and surviving.

 

[Anwar]

Much slower, much less efficiently. Especially when you're transporting a significant number of prisoners, using resources to feed them and not getting the benefit of their expertise and dedicating some of your remaining significantly under-strength crew to guarding them. And what, you're just going to leave them in the brig to rot for 75 years, force them to life in prison? What if your descendants thing they should be let free?

So what? They still didn't NEED them like they'd die without them. There was nothing really screaming "You need us!" to the Fleeters. It was more practical to let them out, but it would be utter stupidity to let them run around and do their own thing.

That's a terrible argument because it's based on assuming that godlike or deus ex machina forces would become involved. It's absolutely a good reason to assume it would be the full 75 years, and there are indications early on that this is exactly what the blended crew are expecting.

Knowing that such things had happened before would be enough to keep the crew from going nuts. Plus, with the wormholes and spatial phenoma other crews have encountered in the past it's not like their situation was hopeless.

That's your argument? There's more of us than there are of you, and you're on our turf? Wow... let's hear it for wonderful "Federation values."

It's better than "Let's let a bunch of criminals who've attacked and killed our comrades have free run of our ship".

Wow. Way to trust in the goodness of your fellow people. Why assume hostility, and why assume a Maquis "takeover" would end poorly?

Because the Maquis are criminals and terrorists who've demonstrated in the past they're perfectly willing to kill Fleeters, and Maquis in charge would likely result in them ditching the entire Fleet crew on some hellhole planet or selling them off as slaves for resources or alliances with others.

Funny, because I could make the opposite argument, that the Maquis are much better prepared for surviving on less, being a small band relatively helpless in hostile space, and surviving.

But are they explorers who would try to look for abnormal phenomenons that could get them home faster? Are they diplomats or scientists trained to survive in deep space away from home? Are hey long-term planners or are they short-termers who think on the fly?

 

[neozeks]

Because the Maquis are criminals and terrorists who've demonstrated in the past they're perfectly willing to kill Fleeters, and Maquis in charge would likely result in them ditching the entire Fleet crew on some hellhole planet or selling them off as slaves for resources or alliances with others.

You can't just generalize a whole bunch of people like that. Yeah, some of them were ruthless and misguided. But couldn't you also consider that some were Maquis because they believed their grievances were legitimate? Remember, Chakotay was one of these 'criminals'. B'Ellana was also. Kira in DS9 was a terrorist (and she killed Cardassian civilians).

But are they explorers who would try to look for abnormal phenomenons that could get them home faster? Are they diplomats or scientists trained to survive in deep space away from home? Are hey long-term planners or are they short-termers who think on the fly?

This just shows that they really need both, the Maquis' expirence in survival and Fleeter's diplomatic/scientific sensibilities. But I can only remember one discussion of whether they should sometimes do things 'the Maquis way' (I think it was in Alliances).

 

[kimc]

If circumstances had been reversed and they had ended up on Chakotay's ship he would have made the calls.

To which I say again, why? Why should Starfleet make all the concessions to the Maquis when the Maquis needs them to get back home?

Have you ever been on a ship before in your life? The captain being in charge is not a Starfleet thing - it's a tradition that is as old as the first sailing ship.

Labor Day weekend I want sailing around the Apostle Islands in Lake Superior. One of my friends was the captain. He had taken the training and had the experience to be allowed to charter a boat that size and as far as the charter company was concerned he was responsible for the lives of the crew (that would be us non-captain types). Sure he would ask us things like "Do you want to stop and look at this lighthouse or keep sailing?" but when he said it was time to "come about" we shut up, dropped what we were doing and helped come about. That's just the way things go.

Starfleet gave Janeway that expensive and powerful ship because she was capable of handling it. She was responsible for the lives of everyone on that ship. She was the captain. It has nothing to do with being a "bully" or "rights" - things can happen quickly whether you're on a starship or a sailboat and when that happens someone with the experience and the ability needs to make the quick call - it's not time to take a vote.

Now of course you still have choices. You can choose not to get on the ship, sailboat or whatever. That way you can ensure you're never under the "tyranney" of a captain. The Maquis had choices too. The choice of staying on the ship as crew meant Janeway as captain.

 

[DonIago]

"The Maquis had choices too. The choice of staying on the ship as crew meant Janeway as captain."

Huh, I go away most of the weekend, and when I get back we're still at the point where I note that it seems unrealistic that 100% of the Maquis would opt to stay on the ship given the terms imposed upon them.

 

[Anwar]

All the terms were that they wear a single uniform and obey a chain of command not so different from their own (if different at all). Nothing else. No rights infringed upon, no strict rules that they found outlandish.

Unless you still subscribe to that "The Uniform was against everything they believed in!" nonsense.

 

[DonIago]

They also had to give up strategies and tactics that might have allowed Voyager to make it home sooner but were considered unacceptable by Starfleet.

I also maintain that asking the Bajoran Maquis to give up his earring was a cheap shot, especially as Picard allowed Ro to keep hers.

 

[exodus]

"The Maquis had choices too. The choice of staying on the ship as crew meant Janeway as captain."

Huh, I go away most of the weekend, and when I get back we're still at the point where I note that it seems unrealistic that 100% of the Maquis would opt to stay on the ship given the terms imposed upon them.

Not to mention "Worse Case Scenario" gave us an insight that while it was Janeway's ship, her rule over it was not absolute.
If the Maquis did mutiny, they could have easily kicked Janeway and those loyal to her right off her own ship. The Maquis also have the advantage of knowing guerilla warfare and many have no quams about killing. As we learned over the years, Starfleet has PC rules of combat and will not commit acts of murder on their own civilians.

The Maquis chose to comply, they didn't have too.
I do agree with you, I find it hard to believe someone like Suder would comply.

 

[Gotham Central]

If circumstances had been reversed and they had ended up on Chakotay's ship he would have made the calls.

To which I say again, why? Why should Starfleet make all the concessions to the Maquis when the Maquis needs them to get back home?

Have you ever been on a ship before in your life? The captain being in charge is not a Starfleet thing - it's a tradition that is as old as the first sailing ship.

Labor Day weekend I want sailing around the Apostle Islands in Lake Superior. One of my friends was the captain. He had taken the training and had the experience to be allowed to charter a boat that size and as far as the charter company was concerned he was responsible for the lives of the crew (that would be us non-captain types). Sure he would ask us things like "Do you want to stop and look at this lighthouse or keep sailing?" but when he said it was time to "come about" we shut up, dropped what we were doing and helped come about. That's just the way things go.

Starfleet gave Janeway that expensive and powerful ship because she was capable of handling it. She was responsible for the lives of everyone on that ship. She was the captain. It has nothing to do with being a "bully" or "rights" - things can happen quickly whether you're on a starship or a sailboat and when that happens someone with the experience and the ability needs to make the quick call - it's not time to take a vote.

Now of course you still have choices. You can choose not to get on the ship, sailboat or whatever. That way you can ensure you're never under the "tyranney" of a captain. The Maquis had choices too. The choice of staying on the ship as crew meant Janeway as captain.

Who the frak cares that she's the captain other than her crew?

Some people here think that its perfectly reasonable for people to just give into Janeway because she was Janeway...which is nonsense.

Consider it this way, if back during ther 60's/70's you had a group of hippies (fiercely opposed to the military) and a US naval vessel, lost and needing each other to get home...it would be perfectly reasonable for them to set aside (SOME of) their differences in order to get home. What you would NOT see is the hippies willingly putting on a US military uniform and acting like good soldiers.

How likely do you think a member of the IRA would willingly put on a British uniform and serve under a British commander and act like British soldiers. I do not care what the situation, I do not see a member of Hezbollah or Hamas EVER putting on an Israeli uniform and willingly serving in the israeli military.

That's what is in dispute here. There is no way that the Maquis, a group of people that felt betrayed by the Federation and Starfleet, should have put on those uniforms without a fight. Indeed, as the simulation with Lt Barkley showed, Starfleet command did not expect that either. Yet we are expected to believe that these Maquis just went along with being pressed into Starfleet service without one word of dissent. unlike Chakotay, many of these people NEVER went to the Academy nor had any interest in being in Starfleet.

What should have happened in "Learning Curve" is that Dalby, Chell and the others should have told both Tuvok AND Chakotay to frak off. Unless they were willing to put them in the brig or hold a gun 9on them for the next 75 years, they would not allow themselves to be treated like Starfleet drones....ESPECIALLY since Janeway already made provisions of civilians to serve on her ship.

 

[exodus]

To which I say again, why? Why should Starfleet make all the concessions to the Maquis when the Maquis needs them to get back home?

Have you ever been on a ship before in your life? The captain being in charge is not a Starfleet thing - it's a tradition that is as old as the first sailing ship.

Labor Day weekend I want sailing around the Apostle Islands in Lake Superior. One of my friends was the captain. He had taken the training and had the experience to be allowed to charter a boat that size and as far as the charter company was concerned he was responsible for the lives of the crew (that would be us non-captain types). Sure he would ask us things like "Do you want to stop and look at this lighthouse or keep sailing?" but when he said it was time to "come about" we shut up, dropped what we were doing and helped come about. That's just the way things go.

Starfleet gave Janeway that expensive and powerful ship because she was capable of handling it. She was responsible for the lives of everyone on that ship. She was the captain. It has nothing to do with being a "bully" or "rights" - things can happen quickly whether you're on a starship or a sailboat and when that happens someone with the experience and the ability needs to make the quick call - it's not time to take a vote.

Now of course you still have choices. You can choose not to get on the ship, sailboat or whatever. That way you can ensure you're never under the "tyranney" of a captain. The Maquis had choices too. The choice of staying on the ship as crew meant Janeway as captain.

Who the frak cares that she's the captain other than her crew?

Some people here think that its perfectly reasonable for people to just give into Janeway because she was Janeway...which is nonsense.

Consider it this way, if back during ther 60's/70's you had a group of hippies (fiercely opposed to the military) and a US naval vessel, lost and needing each other to get home...it would be perfectly reasonable for them to set aside (SOME of) their differences in order to get home. What you would NOT see is the hippies willingly putting on a US military uniform and acting like good soldiers.

How likely do you think a member of the IRA would willingly put on a British uniform and serve under a British commander and act like British soldiers. I do not care what the situation, I do not see a member of Hezbollah or Hamas EVER putting on an Israeli uniform and willingly serving in the israeli military.

That's what is in dispute here. There is no way that the Maquis, a group of people that felt betrayed by the Federation and Starfleet, should have put on those uniforms without a fight. Indeed, as the simulation with Lt Barkley showed, Starfleet command did not expect that either. Yet we are expected to believe that these Maquis just went along with being pressed into Starfleet service without one word of dissent. unlike Chakotay, many of these people NEVER went to the Academy nor had any interest in being in Starfleet.

What should have happened in "Learning Curve" is that Dalby, Chell and the others should have told both Tuvok AND Chakotay to frak off. Unless they were willing to put them in the brig or hold a gun 9on them for the next 75 years, they would not allow themselves to be treated like Starfleet drones....ESPECIALLY since Janeway already made provisions of civilians to serve on her ship.

Plus, I'd like to see a show of hands of how many here believe that someone like Suder attended Starfleet. How would someone like him pass a psych evaluation?

The points you make IMO are excellent.

 

[Anwar]

I still think it would have been more interesting for them to have Chakotay immediately approach Janeway and offer a partnership because he knew that they'd have to work together to survive.

As a result, other Maquis see him as a sell-out and other Fleeters see Janeway as being a new Captain wet behind the ears who can't control the Maquis.

Thus the conflict is not Fleet vs Maquis but Janeway/Chakotay and their Fleet/Maquis followers vs their own people. Maquis vs Maquis and Fleet vs Fleet.

More interesting than Fleet vs Maquis.

 

[DonIago]

^Also an interesting scenario. I can definitely see the Maquis side, I have a bit more trouble with the Fleet side, though if for instance Chakotay was given clear authority over Cavit, that could catalyze things.

 

[Anwar]

Well, I thought up my scenario when I was doing my redo of Voyager where Janeway was the Chief Science Officer who took command after the real Captain and XO were both killed in battle. So that was the explanation for the crew thinking she wasn't up to the job.

Here, well I'm sure we can work out reasons for why they wouldn't think she's up to it.