On the signing day of United Federation of Planets, is Archer an admiral

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Happy Hopping, Jan 22, 2023.

  1. Timofnine

    Timofnine Saintly henchman of Santa Premium Member

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    Wow, I never knew that. In this case, Section 31 could have been discreetly subpoenaed in to Federation Starfleet via the transitional small print.
     
  2. Sumire

    Sumire Commander Red Shirt

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    A precise but important distinction, thank you.
     
  3. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    DS9 said original Starfleet character, it didn't specify Earth or Federation.

    I wouldn't be surprised if S31 agents got it added to the Federation one as well.

    That painting isn't canon. The best we know in canon is that he was a captain.
     
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  4. Imaus

    Imaus Captain Captain

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    Flag officer pips have a sort of border on them. This is more notable in like the TNG pip era cause it's a gold border on black, while in Ent they're black on silver.

    Four pips and the border - an Admiral. It goes like, in ascending order of pips: CMDRE?- RADM. VADM. ADM. FADM, FADM apparently has something going on.

    Captain has four normal pips. Order ascends from: ENS, LT, CDR, CPT - Captain with four, Commander with three, Lieutenants with two, Ensigns and I think LTJGs have one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2023
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  5. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    This. As there is another Federation founding ceremony episode being omitted from the discussion – the S3 finale “Zero Hour”.

    While Daniels does say that it is seven years into the future, near the end of the episode, the date entered into T’Pol’s log is February 14, 2152. Not 2154 as its supposed to be.

    That error - and anything onscreen is considered canon - does provide leeway to suggest the Federation founding ceremony as Daniels showed Archer in that episode – and where TATV is set - actually takes place in 2159 . And this makes sense, since the Charter still has to be ratified by the governments of the founding members, which could take years to do. But the alliance could still exist by the time of the Battle of Cheron and the various treaty negotiations begin.

    And if it is indeed actually set in 2159 instead of 2161, it would make sense that Archer is a Fleet Captain in this situation since there’s a war going on. Since in addition to his pips, Archer’s uniform has a single gold stripe on its sleeve, like the commodores and admirals. Though their sleeve stripes are red, while Archer’s is, as stated, gold. In TOS, stripes denoted rank. Why does Archer have a gold stripe on his uniform if he’s just a captain?

    It doesn’t really make sense that Archer would be Fleet Admiral, only to be demoted to Admiral while his bridge crew are speaking positively about him and thinking that they will still serve on a starship with Archer as their captain. He had to have been officially a Fleet Captain when he made his speech, while accepting the promotion to Admiral either just before or immediately after the speech and subsequent signing.

    But the Federation Charter adopts the United Earth Starfleet Charter. So Section 31 can continue on in the shadows as intended.
     
  6. Timofnine

    Timofnine Saintly henchman of Santa Premium Member

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    Well, I’ve slept on this and Admiral Forrest has a golden box outlining his pips. Archer does not. 4 pips is Captain rank, though the two sets of 4 pips Archer has have no outline, so I do not think that he was an Admiral or Fleet Admiral or there would be a similar outline ‘box’.

    Archer must be Fleet Captain? Though Fleet Admiral sounds better and is more deserving.
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We don't know that.

    And besides, how could they? Legally, they are completely different organizations. They just both happen to have Starfleet in the name.
     
  8. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    The United Earth Starfleet framework still works and could still be carried over to Federation Starfleet. Now maybe Section 31 of Article 14 was removed in the updated version. Maybe Section 31 got put out to pasture as its purpose was served and the agency was forgotten about over time.

    At least before DIS came along
     
  9. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Regardless, the painting shows Archer wearing the same dress uniform we see him wearing in TATV, where we know his rank was still Captain.
     
  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why must he, though? He did his duty, and that is all that should be expected for a Starfleet captain. Treating ranks as a matter of "deserving" when there are other organizational needs to consider is definitely something that irritates me when it comes to Starfleet's policies on promotions. Why can't characters just do their jobs and not worry about rank?
     
  11. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If it wasn't also in the Federation Starfleet Charter, I doubt they'd be using it as an excuse.
     
  12. Timofnine

    Timofnine Saintly henchman of Santa Premium Member

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    This ceremony took place after the Romulan Wars. Archer’s duty would have included coordinating a large part of Starfleet in order to achieve the objective of defending against the Romulan threat. He would have needed rank in order to project authority and to give a working structure of command. Usually high ranks and promotions are given as a result of commendable and exceptional service, this is just how Starfleet works in the 22nd century. If it wasn’t rank managing the command hierarchy within Starfleet then the organization would probably be overcome with a social ‘pack’ like gang mentality instead with Archer being top dawg of the NX-01 instead of Captain, in which case they can recast Archer with Snoop Dogg who is a trained actor.
     
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Fleet Admiral strikes me as excessive. Being an admiral is totally understandable. Still being a captain is still understandable.
     
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  14. HopefulRomantic

    HopefulRomantic Mom's little girl Moderator

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    Nobody else had received promotions by the Thing. TPTB probably thought, "Eh, give him a pretty new uniform, that's enough. Now where's that bulldozer we ordered for the sets?"
     
  15. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    It's possible that Archer was promoted to admiral around the time when the Enterprise NX-01 was retired and the Federation formed. If Starfleet's like any other large organization, it took the promotion some time to make its way through the bureaucracy.

    My head canon remains that most of his subordinates had long moved on to higher assignments within Starfleet... Riker just included them in his sim so he could interview them.
     
  16. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    Again, I refer to this. Colombia’s helmsman, wearing a single pip, referred to as lieutenant by the captain.



    As far as I’m concerned, Mayweather and Hoshi are lieutenants, junior grade in the Thing. And were promoted sometime between the Terra Prime arc and the Thing. It just wasn’t confirmed on screen because the episode was badly written and edited (Trip talking to Riker after he supposedly died). Its for the best that Mayweather and Hoshi’s quiet promotions were overlooked, after what happened with Harry Kim on VOY.

    There's just no way Archer would have Mayweather and Hoshi remain ensigns for seven years, let alone ten. He's not Janeway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2023
  17. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Even Janeway only picked on one officer... she had Paris back at El Tee in a year and a half.

    Now why do you insult one of the Addams Family's most memorable characters by comparing it with that... abomination?
     
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  18. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    I have nothing against Thing, though I wonder how Thing (Addams Family) and Thing (Fantastic Four) feel being compared to that. Its just that some members tend to the finale as the Thing. In their defense, its not like it really deserves much thought at all, something I am guilty of doing too much of. Though in my defense, I’m trying to figure out every aspect where it went wrong that needs to be corrected and I’ve come to several conclusions.

    - Show the Federation Charter signing and Archer’s speech, complete with the Federation anthem playing. LD can take care of that.

    - Fix Trip being dead and the middle decks crew (Mayweather, Hoshi, Reed) seemingly not caring about that. Which is easy by following TGTMD’s lead and make him a Section 31 agent that’s deep undercover in Romulan space.

    - Acknowledge that Mayweather and Hoshi were promoted to lieutenant, junior grade in 2155 shortly after the Terra Prime arc.

    - Explain why Archer was irritated at T’Pol throughout the episode. It could be that she sat out the war in accordance to Surak’s teachings of non violence in the Kir’Shara and Archer's still upset about that, since she participated in the Xindi mission (explaining why he's still thinking about that mission). It could be that T’Pol, despite being loyal to Archer and the crew, is either half or fully Romulan (which would make for an interesting contrast to, say, Valeris in TUC) and Archer hadn’t gotten use to it yet. It could be that she kicked his ass in water polo really badly one time and he’s still not over it. If it were up to me, all three would be a factor.

    - Address what happened to Trip and T’Pol’s relationship. The two of them just giving up out of the blue, after hinting that something would happen between them, makes no sense - even if some fans were shipping Archer/T'Pol or some other pairing. I would like to think that Trip and T’Pol did marry shortly thereafter and had Lorian, only for T’Pol to inexplicably divorce and then engaging in fullara (purging all memory of those event). And custody of Lorian was shared between Trip's parents, and Soval or T’Pau to raise in the absence of both his parents.

    - Address the Andorian Imperial Guard’s response to Shran supposedly faking his death. Since he's supposedly a General in the early 2160s and makes Archer an honorary member of the Imperial Guard.
     
  19. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Don't worry, I'm just being difficult. But given that I call it the abomination, it's obvious I share the consensus.

    A good way to do it. I'd think that Scott Bakula could be convinced to do some voice work.

    All of these changes can be either handled orcrendered unnecessary by simply moving the episode to 2155. Talla is Shran's niece. Hoshi and Travis's promotion and reassignment are pending. Trip and T'Pol are still grieving and deciding what they want to do next. And Trip simply isn't killed.
     
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  20. FederationHistorian

    FederationHistorian Commodore Commodore

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    Does it have to though? its not like the problem was that it was set in 2161. It was that nothing was explained as to why it appeared like nothing had changed. Not even a line that they were going through a lot of hair dye to cover greying hairs.

    I don’t know who slipped in the line of the single pipped Columbia helmsman being a lieutenant during the Klingon Augment virus arc, but that person is a genius. And gets around the issue regarding promotions for two generally overlooked bridge officers after they did not get their promotions early on in S4. Its supposed to be a different era anyway.

    And I’m not really bothered with my ideas as to what happened regarding the relationship of Archer & T’Pol, and T’Pol & Trip. If we are going with Trip being a Section 31 agent with a select few of the crew knowing, then I don’t think T’Pol actually being a Romulan and that secret being kept among a select few of the crew is a stretch either. Especially if she discovered this revelation while away from the NX-01 during the war because she was following Surak’s teaching while rediscovering what it means to be Vulcan. It was already the plan to reveal her to be half-Romulan in S5. I just choose to take it a step further and make her full Romulan - her ridges surgically removed at a young age - while making her a 180 to Valeris in being loyal to her crew. I can see Archer being bothered by both her absence during the war and having to come to terms that his first officer was Romulan the whole time. its certainly preferable to Archer backsliding to who he was in S1 and S2.

    I may have gone overboard with the water polo idea. And Lorian as well, as T’Pol engaging in fullara to distance herself emotionally from Trip going on a Section 31 mission makes sense. Though it would give added depth to T'Pol meeting Trip's parents if it was to see Lorian as well. But the rest is sound.

    I don’t have a hard time believed Trip went out into the field as a Section 31 agent twice; first in 2155 during the Romulan war, and again in 2161 during the Federation founding ceremony. And Shran is his contact.

    All of this could be handled by LD.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2023