On season 4 of Buffy...should I be watching Angel?

[kirk55555]

Adam sucked, but he was still a better main villain than Season 5's. I have no idea why they thought that was a good idea, but that villain was easily the least threatening, stupidest bad guy in the Buffy/Angel universe. OVerall the initiative and Riely stuff really sucked in general, but compared to Season 5's bad guys it wasn't that bad.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Uh. Season 5's villain wasn't a guy.

 

[Taylirious]

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jwr3Fxe0w4[/yt]



S5 was my favorite!

 

[CorporalClegg]

Season five is outstanding. It's way deeper than people give it credit for.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

^ Agree. It was one of the best.

I loved Glory as the Big Bad. She was evil and insane, a great combo!

 

[gblews]

^ Agree. It was one of the best.

I loved Glory as the Big Bad. She was evil and insane, a great combo!

...and had that wacky Cordelia-esque overlay. Truly a bizarre character. She was my second favorite Big Bad right after the Mayor.

 

[kirk55555]

Uh. Season 5's villain wasn't a guy.

I was trying to keep it vague, and not get spoilerish, so I just went with "bad Guy". I know Glory isn't a guy. She's like the worst of Cordeila merged with the lamest demon ever created. I never took her seriously, she was never even remotely threatening. Even Adam seemed threatening sometimes. Glory just made me roll my eyes. Season 5 is easily the worst season of Buffy in my opinion. No good villain, no real stand out episodes, and Dawn being somehow more useless when she had a plot reason to exist then she'd be once she stopped being relevant to the overall plot.

Season 6 was a huge improvement, and is actually my favorite season of Buffy. Season 5 I actually have on DVD, but I gave up on rewatch. I can't even make it through the season anymore it sucks so badly.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

gblews, She sure did. Buffy even mentioned the similarity to Cordy.

Me too! I LOVED the Mayor. He was twisted and funny but mostly twisted.

 

[CorporalClegg]

She's like the worst of Cordeila merged with the lamest demon ever created.

That was the whole point.

she was never even remotely threatening.

Again. Point.

Dawn being ... useless

Point.

no real stand out episodes

And it's shit like this why no one takes what you say seriously.

 

[JD]

I thought season 5 was one of their best.

Spoiler: Season 5 of Buffy

Glory might not have been a big scary monster, but I still thought she was a good villain. She was scary crazy. I thought the introduction of Dawn was a fun little twist, and added an interesting new dynamic to the show. The episodes dealing with Joyce's illness and eventual death were great.

 

[theenglish]

She's like the worst of Cordeila merged with the lamest demon ever created.

That was the whole point.

she was never even remotely threatening.

Again. Point.

Dawn being ... useless

Point.

no real stand out episodes

And it's shit like this why no one takes what you say seriously.

He/she is not being serious--the comparison to season 6 is the tell in his/her post. This is just what Kirk55555 does.

 

[Thestral]

[Season 5 is easily the worst season of Buffy in my opinion. No good villain, no real stand out episodes...

Wat. Wat wat wat.

Spoiler: S5 spoilers

The Body. Just... The Body.

Also, Forever was a damned good followup. The Gift too, of course. And Listening to Fear.

Season 6 was indeed good, probably the 3rd best season but sorry, S5 was magnificent.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Season 5 was the best season for me in large part because of the awesome central theme all about family (and family vs. blood) - that's the aspect of Buffy (and most of Joss's stuff, actually) that I always loved the most, so to have a whole season that really went to town on the theme was wonderful, not to mention having some of the best episodes of the show.

But at the same time - all potential trolling aside - I understand perfectly that there are other people out there who would not put that season anywhere near the top. Glory by herself wasn't a terribly fantastic villain. And this was the first season that really felt like one long story-arc, instead of the more traditional Buffy approach of switching back and forth between arc stories and stand alone stories (not that there weren't any stand-alones, just a lot fewer), so anyone who wasn't into the overarching story of the season didn't really have a lot to grab onto.

 

[Iamnotspock]

Could we maybe rationalise Angel's statement about having no breath to mean that he breathes out something as a voluntary act, as you say, but that his lungs don't convert oxygen into carbon dioxide? So, he knew that his breath wouldn't be of any use. Time was of the essence; he and Xander needed to revive Buffy quickly, so he wouldn't have gone into detail.

You're getting it backward. Oxygen is what Buffy needed. The reason artificial respiration works is that our lungs only convert part of the oxygen into carbon dioxide; what we breathe out still has a lot of oxygen in it. And if Angel's breath were just ordinary, unaffected air, that would give Buffy even more oxygen than a living person's breath would.

Well, that'll teach me to post while tired...

 

[CorporalClegg]

Season 5 was an analogue/allegory to Buffy's life/existence--or more to the point, the main premise of the show. That being the internal conflict between keeping the "real"/normal life separate from her fantasy/supernormal life. Or more specifically, the conflict between Buffy Summers and The Slayer. Or, in a more generic sense, the battle between her personal life and her professional career.

But this duality was represented over and over again:
Buffy and Dawn, obviously.
Willow and Dark Willow.
Spike and William.
Glory and Ben.

There were the two Xanders in "The Replacement," which was the most literal representation.

And then Riley's inner conflict been his life as a solider and being content with just being a lowly boyfriend is most closely related to Buffy's own. It's interesting to note that Riley ultimately chooses to sacrifice is personal life in favor of his professional while, in the end, Buffy ultimately scarifies The Slayer to save her personal life.

And while Dawn is the most direct analogue of "normal" Buffy, Glory plays a part here too. They make the joke that she's a lot like Cordelia. But the whole point to Cordy's existence was to remind Buffy (and us) what she used to be like before she became The Slayer. She was Queen Bee, the alpha mean girl, whatever. Vapid and annoying. The God of her own little world but ultimately harmless.

All the ins and outs of the season represent the hardship of the two world colliding. And then, ultimately, the two world literally collide in "The Gift." But despite all this crisscrossing hardship, the biggest tragedy of her life exists solely in the "real"/personal world.

 

[kirk55555]

She's like the worst of Cordeila merged with the lamest demon ever created.

That was the whole point.

she was never even remotely threatening.

Again. Point.

Dawn being ... useless

Point.

no real stand out episodes

And it's shit like this why no one takes what you say seriously.

So, the point was to have a whole season with a terrible villain that was never threatening, to the point where she was only there to fill screen time in episodes? That's either a brilliant example of a creator telling his fans to f^&k off, or extreme incompetence. To be fair, based on the ending of Angel Joss Whedon has basically told his fans to F-off before, but taking a whole season to do it? That doesn't seem like him, or the other people making Buffy. It seems more like just a bad idea they eventually got stuck with, and never really managed to make work. A villain should be interesting, and threatening, and be more than a waste of space. Glory just sucked.

Also, I stand by there being no stand out episodes. I'm hard pressed to find an episode in Season 5 that wasn't horrible, much less a good episode. I guess Buffy vs. Dracula had some funny parts, and The Replacement was ok. Besides that, it was mostly mediocre to terrible, in my opinion. Easily the worst season of Buffy.

Then season 6 came around, and it was very good. Season 5 was just a waste of time, and something that is easily ignored. Dawn pops up so randomly in Season 5, you might as well skip to season 6 after Season 4, her appearance won't be any more abrupt. Its not like her reason for being is particularly interesting anyway, plus I'm sure at least one episode in season 6 mentions it.

He/she is not being serious--the comparison to season 6 is the tell in his/her post. This is just what Kirk55555 does.

I'm being completely serious. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm not serious, although you seem to think it is, and I can't convince you because, since we disagree about a bunch of things, you'll always believe I'm not being serious I loathe Buffy season 5, and outside of Buffy vs Dracula and The Replacement, I can't think of any episode I'd watch again. Season 6 has my two favorite episodes in the entire series. I don't particularly care if you disagree, your disagreement doesn't make what I've said any less true for me.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I'm confused. Season 6 had a lot of sex. Buffy even has an orgasm on screen. She was also raped at one point. Willow had a drug problem.

I thought that stuff made you uncomfortable and grounds for immediate dismissal?

 

[kirk55555]

I'm confused. Season 6 had a lot of sex. Buffy even has an orgasm on screen. She was also raped at one point. Willow had a drug problem.

I thought that stuff made you uncomfortable and grounds for immediate dismissal?

I don't like actual nudity and sex stuff. There is no actual nudity or sex scenes in any episode of Buffy. I'm fine with fake/simulated forms of that stuff (although that episode with Riley and Buffy in the haunted house was pushing it). Also, Willow got addicted to magic, not drugs (although there were parts of that which were probably an allusion to drugs). Unless I missed the episode where they showed she was on some kind of magic meth, nothing about her story arc bothered me.

The season has problems (Xander and Anya's break up was weird and a bit disjointed to me) but the season had my two favorite episodes (Once More with feeling and Tabula rasa), a bunch of decent to very good episodes and the finale was great.

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

Buffy was not raped. She managed to kick Spike off her body before he could go any further.

 

[theenglish]

Buffy was not raped. She managed to kick Spike off her body before he could go any further.

I seem to remember that that scene was written much differently but the director of the episode misinterpreted what was intended. Does anyone else remember that?